The #1 Danger Facing the Church Today | Pastor Landon MacDonald

Landon, thank you for being on the Provoke and Inspire podcast. And for those watching, not just listening, you

are surrounded by a mountain of art. It is a beautiful look. And I got to be

honest, I'm I don't know. We're probably similar in ages would be my guess, but I first did not know what I was looking

at. What is behind you? And what has led to what appears to be an addiction of

some sort? Yes, these are my uh those are that's my CD collection. I I sold about 70% of

them. What? When when I moved to Arizona. And then this is vinyl.

Vinyl. There's a a bunch of shelves of those. Wow. I uh I love music. I love music. I love

listening to music. I love how music can be active or passive. And so I love listening to music and

thinking or drinking or having a coffee. and I love listening to music and uh and

reading and so it just perhaps this was like my my high school rebellion. That was the only rebellion

that my parents would accept and this is where it's gotten me to. Yeah, I like that. That could be your biography. Acceptable rebellion. That's

good. Um what kind of why music? Were you a musician or just music? Just a an

appreciator of music and and what kind of music? I'm curious. Yeah. I mean, clearly everything.

Yeah. My Well, Chuck Clausterman says, "If anybody ever tells you they like all kinds of music, that means they like no

kinds of music." And uh That's good. I um I was in a band in high school and

college. I played on worship team also, and it was just I was in Chicago, and I

would literally send I would snail mail my band CD to clubs in downtown Chicago

and they wouldn't always know how old we were. This was before you could attach an MP3 to an email. They would say it's

too big. So now, um, so then at that time we would get like letters back or emails

back and they would say, "Well, we're going to book you for this club." And then we would show up. I would be like 15 years old. That's awesome.

And our bass player was 13 years old one time. And so they used to say, "Um, hey, give

us your driver's license. You got to confirm you're not 21." They put a big black X on your hand.

Oh, yeah. And my my buddy Cal was like, "I'm 13 years old. I don't I'm not going to have a driver's license for three

years." And I think it was just a hobby. And it's, you know, men, Christian men

are always looking for good, harmless hobbies. And most of my friends are into

golf. And when they tell me how much they spend, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I spend like half as much as that on vinyl

every month." And and I've got this whole collection. and all you have to show for it is a bad

golf game. But you are in Arizona, right? So that's kind of the mecca of of couples. Yeah. Bad golf game and a bunch

of days where you drank one too many at uh 12:30 p.m. So

Mhm. Okay. Well, I think you've made a a wise choice. That's cool to hear, man. So tell me a little bit more. So you are

a pastor. Tell how did you get into that and a little bit about what you do? And then we'll just we'll see where this

goes. I love it. Well, first of all, thank you for inviting me. I'm honored to be here

and the ministry and um all of that looks awesome. I'm proud of anyone

um who does any type of internet ministry of any kind. I think it's amazing. And I think that the the lie of

postmodern society is something has to have a billion views to be valuable. And that's not true at all.

Right? I mean, most Christian podcasts have an amount of views that if the people were in the room, you'd be like, "Wow, this

is a really amazing event." But people are like, "Oh, this is they they don't think their own art is valuable." And

I'm like, "No, no, no. It is. It's amazing." Anyways, um I am from Chicago.

I became a pastor uh I don't know at some point there. I went to Moody Bible

Institute and I met my wife and um we moved to Arizona in 2019. I lead a

church called Mission Community Church in Gilbert, Arizona. I'm a teacher for

an online uh undergrad in seminary called um Theos University and I make

content on YouTube and Instagram. I'm mostly right now working on um this

podcast called Theology AMA and so that's kind of the main thing I'm doing other than teaching through the

Bible at my church and uh I love to do it. How was it inheriting a church one year

before COVID? Well, I when I moved here, I worked at a church uh called

Cornerstone in Chandler. Okay. I worked there for a couple years before I ended up at mission. But it, you know, co was

such an intriguing thing. It was such a baptism by fire. And watching all of, you know, different things burn down.

The church I was at, attendance went down by half, giving stayed the same, and we didn't lose a

single volunteer. And I was like, "Wow." So half of the people in the church didn't

give or serve it. It was just an absolutely wild moment where you're like, "Wow." And it

made me love our volunteers even more. I was like, "You guys are doing everything." Yeah. So this an interesting thing that

you led into there because I've been thinking a lot about church and I'm sure

as a pastor this is just constantly on your mind. And I had this mentor a while back. he's he's passed away, but he was

this really brilliant older guy and he was very involved in church, but also marketing. And but one of the things he

always lamented and he talked to me about is that back in the day, and there can always be this revisionism, and it

was great in my day, but he talked about how church used to be, you know, you'd have a pastor. Usually, it was just the

only employee in the church was the pastor, and they weren't always necessarily even funded that well. Not that that's great, but that was kind of

the reality of his day. And then the lay people were expected to fill in all the other roles and they were expected to

step up and and serve and and kind of as you were saying in terms of the bizarre reality that people would come and and

not contribute in any way. Um and then he kind of lamented the idea that things have progressed to the point where now

everything has become professionalized. There's a there's a paid professional for every role in the church and it's

created a bit of a consumer individual paradigm. Do you see it that way? and

and how have you kind of faced with that reality of the modern church and maybe

some ways that it could return more to what it's supposed to be or just that idea in general?

I do see it that way. I think that um the

disscent the grandchild of the 1990s seeker sensitive church is a church

where you have to pay people to make coffee. Um I'm not talking about like a coffee shop barista. I'm talking about

like old school Baptist kitchen making a big pot of coffee that isn't good. Um

I think that that's a disaster and I think that that should be embarrassing. You know, what does the New Testament say? Um what you've heard from me in the

presence of many witnesses and trust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. M and I think if we lower the bar

perpetually on what it means to be a Christian, um we will have churches full of people

who don't serve, don't give, don't know the ways of Jesus and don't want to

follow those. And then we will be stuck in a situation where we have hardly any

leaders. Jesus perhaps thinking about this type of situation said the harvest

is plentiful, the workers are few. But most people don't quote the second part which is therefore pray earnestly that

he may send workers into your harvest. And I think that if you have like a functionally anti- charismatic church,

functionally anti- um gifts of the Holy Spirit church, then

what you're left with is you're saying to men who are millionaires, who are very successful, hey, do you want to

come be a greeter at our church? And the that idea is so ludicrous. The idea that that is serving Christ,

I'm not saying it's bad. I'm not saying churches shouldn't have them. I'm saying the idea that that would spiritually

stimulate a man is so ludicrous. And um it's really sad. I think I think uh two

things volunteerism and contract employees are the future of the church,

especially if there's a successful political push to take away the taxexempt status of churches, which

would be horrible, but may happen. And I think that there's a a lot of churches that perhaps, and I'm sure their pastors

would admit this, I'm not accusing or saying I know better. I've talked with pastors who think this way. I think a

lot of churches would do better having fewer employees and more contract

employees that are people in their church, right? And hey, we have a conference coming up.

We don't need to hire a full-time project manager. This woman in our church manages projects. Hey, do you

want to work here for two months? And I I love things like that. I love people in the church being involved in what's

going on. So hopefully that answered what you were saying. Yeah. I I think from sort of a

parigmatic or philosophical level, it's like where have patterns of the world crept into our mentality as it relates

to church? And you know, I feel this weird sensation when I show up to my

church and despite being in full-time ministry, you know, I sit down and, you know, the lights go down and the preview

comes on and I have my coffee and it the whole thing just feels so consumeristic. And I'm not I'm not blaming the church.

I I know that a lot of it is actually on me. Like the expectations of what it

should mean to be part of a local church. Do you think part of this is yeah, you need roles that fit the people

that you have and maybe financial paradigms that make more sense, but how much of it is a a heart level thing? And

I know it's kind of a cliche drum to beat on, like we're all so individualistic, but do you think how do

you create an expectation in people that that my role here is more than just to show up and hear this TED talk, but

actually to do something about what I hear, maybe in the context of this local church?

Yeah. Well, churches morph to their culture and there's parts of that that aren't

bad. I think there's excellency on um stages in America that is very

honoring to God. It's very beautiful. There's people who are artists and musicians and they work incredibly hard

and there's people who are production people who work incredibly hard. And I know that's not what you you weren't

saying that isn't true. I'm just saying I think that that's a beautiful thing. I think that um it is

difficult to if your church doesn't functionally

believe number one that the church is the body of Christ.

So if your church becomes an evangelistic ministry, which evangelistic ministries are incredible,

but they're not churches, right? The church is the gathering of the body of Christ. It doesn't mean sinners and

unsaved people aren't welcome. It anyone's welcome. It just means that the way we view this

isn't the number of butts and seats. It's the number of people in the path of Jesus here.

And when you see it as an evangelistic thing, it's very very easy to

make that kind of your goal. And if the curse of

American success is a fixation of up and to the

right, more butts and seats, more people baptized, more hands raised for

salvation. I think all three of those things are amazing, but they're a lot more subjective than people actually

give them credit for. Mhm. If those are the only thing and more dollars in the offering, if those are

the things that matter the most, then we will inherently elevate people with the

gift of evangelism over the people with the gift of proclamation and prophecy.

And the problem with that is that that's not the way the church is supposed to function. And then I think when you do

that, you start to have things like we spent 400 grand on our Christmas

service and we're not even going to have a service the next week. And these types of things that make absolutely no sense

to me. We're functionally spending half of the year preparing for the people that

don't even know God. And it just to me it's kind of like a a bit of a mess,

right? And then again, I I wasn't necessarily intended on going down this road. And I I hate to be the guy that's

bashing on churches because I am we are part of it. But maybe the even more cynical

interpretation is that it's evangelism to the nominal or it's evangelism to the

transfer growth in the sense that I mean you tell me are are we is the horse

that's pulled the cart a desire to see the truly unreached reached and so all of our methodology is geared towards

that all of our focus and resources or is there a subtle sense that I have to

compete with the fact that there are 40 churches in a five mile radius who might be doing music and coffee better than me

and that would never be the conscious stated goal, but that's got to be a pressure on some level. Is is that too

cynical of an analysis in terms of why we find ourselves in this place as opposed to I don't know. I feel like

this desire to evangelize would be good even if as you say it's not the core functionality of a church itself.

Well, I think like what are you trying to build and what are you trying to do? Like do you want the people who will

switch churches because there's better coffee? Yeah. because I don't want those people. But I do want to have good

coffee. It's actually one of the first things I changed at our church. But I'm not thinking about other people. I'm

thinking about how to bless the people that are here with something that's really good. We may as well

not have coffee or have good coffee or do we

church church hopping is a problem in Phoenix. It's a problem that I've talked with several other lead pastors about. I

have found the lead pastors that are Gen X and millennial around me to be

incredibly non-competitive and wonderful and very sharing of information, ideas,

things that worked, just very like pro- Kingdom. It's been really awesome. And I've talked with some of them about

people who church hop. And it's intriguing because it's in the culture here. I don't fully understand why it is

the way that it is. But I am happy that the other lead,

excuse me, pastors that I talk to do not really view that as growth because it's

not. It's not king. It's not kingdom growth. And by the time

the same thousand or so people go to their like seventh church, whichever one

is the coolest, you're like, who cares? None of us are winning, right? I So that's kind of my thought on

that. Yeah. And again, it's so superficial and it's so tenuous. I mean, you're going to

hold on to them as long as the last one did and so you're going to be chasing your tail in that sense. Be beyond some

of those maybe big picture things, what do you see as some of the biggest disciplehip issues that you are

contending within the flock that God has called you to to lead? Yeah. biblical illiteracy and the um

grandchildren or children um not literally of the seeker sensitive church

are the two things that I'm kind of um doing my best to shepherd through. I

noticed that most um um I was blessed I got sent to like a Christian school when I was a

kid. I we had Bible class and chapel every day. So I went to

200 chapels a year for nine years and 200 Bible classes a year for nine years.

I went to 1,800 hours of Bible class. And I am just so blessed, beyond blessed

and beyond blessed to be able to attend Moody Bible Institute and study under some of the smartest people in um the

world in my opinion. And so I don't say people are biblically

illiterate as in hey you suck you should learn the Bible more. What I say is what

I'm saying is not individually but culturally biblical illiteracy is a big problem. And I think the expectation

that people will actually engage with their secret text or sacred text is missing. There is a complete and total

disconnect between most areas of fandom and Christianity. And I think again to

harp on the same thing again, I think it's because of the seeker sensitive movement and the way that that changed

what people think. Basically the way that that group thinks is whether they would say it or not is hey if we

do like all of Galatians including the circumcision parts, it's going to

alienate some of our people. So let's just focus on the gospel and blah blah blah blah blah. And you can see the

parts of that that are really beautiful. Caring about the lost, focusing on the gospel. But we can't focus on something

at the expense of something else. Even though the gospel is more important than biblical literacy, they're not mutually

exclusive because God's commanded us to do both of them. And so I started trying

to figure out how to creatively teach people the Bible

because I noticed you talk to a Star Trek fan, there is an absolute expectation that

you have engaged with the vast majority of the material and there's no shame or guilt if they don't. If they haven't

seen the original Gene Rodenberry series and you're at a Star Trek convention, they're not going to say to you, "Hey,

you you're a dumb dumb, right? you need, they're going to say, "Oh my gosh, you have to watch it. Oh my gosh, you have

to watch it." It's this positive culture of drawing people into the content. And

I think perhaps maybe we've lost a little bit of that. I think perhaps because people think the Bible is overly

complex. It is, but it's not more complicated than most people's hobbies. It's not more complicated than knowing

how to fix a car or understanding the VORP statistic in baseball. It's not

more complicated than any of those things. And so those are the things I'm combating against. We started a a

Tuesday night Bible study at the church and we had 400 people come to the first

one. It was we were studying Ezekiel chapter 1. We studied all the way through the book of Ezekiel. It was

about 37 weeks and by the end there was about 80 people and it was a pretty steady decline. And I say that to my

church. It's a joke. And the thing is I'm trying to get people to see is perhaps perhaps there is not as much of

an expectation that we will engage with and understand the sacred text that

we've been given. Yeah. You use the word engage and I think that's a important differentiating

word because I I think about my own life and you know I I have been like you.

I've been immersed in surrounded by scripture my entire life and yet I go in

and out of what I would consider authentic engagement in the sense that it can become a dry routine and it can

become just more information and and yet there's not that degree of wrestling with and uh meditating and

soaking it in and then of course attempting to apply it. So can you extrapolate more what you mean by

biblical illiteracy? Is it literally just a lack of knowledge of the Bible itself or is it deeper and more

practical than that? Uh yeah, it's a couple things. It's a lack of general knowledge of the

collective teachings of the Bible. And that's how you get aberant theology that trickles into the church. And I'm not

talking about like people's view of the end times. There's lots of good views. I have one, but there's lots of other

views that are perfectly valid. Mhm. And then I think the second thing is is many Protestants read the Bible

completely ahistorically, meaning they don't know what a single person before the um Protestant Reformation thinks

about any of the texts. And I understand why it is that people do that, but um we

don't have to figure out what any of the Bible means there. All the amazing people have figured it out. And for some

of the passages that are confusing, there's a couple great options. But for all the ones that are key and important,

we know exactly what it means because you know origin and Augustine and St.

John of the Cross and Teresa of Avala and Martin Luther and Charles Spurgeon,

they all figured it out. It's fantastic. And when you detach history from it, um history is not even close to the same

level as the inspired text, but it's not nothing. And so I think that that's missing. And then I think people are missing

um different ways to engage with the text. So it's it's a pretty long book. It's about 90 hours long. And I think

number one, there's a season where we just read through the whole text like we're binging a show. And if we don't

understand something, we just keep moving on. It's not like a it's like watching a TV show. We're just we're

engaging with the text. We don't have to understand every single thing. M and then I think there's other seasons

of super super super focused like there is this verse that I don't understand and I'm going to read this passage every

single day and pray to God and I want to understand this. I'm going to read every commentary and talk to everybody and then there's seasons where we're focused

on a book. I was in Psalms for like three years and I taught a bunch of other stuff but the only thing I read on

my own time was Psalms for probably three years because I was not doing well

emotionally and I found so much amazing stuff in there that God

David would go and be like he would just dump all of his emotions.

Then he would turn his attention to God and I was just like this is the greatest thing ever. So anyways, all that to say,

there's different ways to engage with the text. It's not like I read through the Bible in a year, every year. I read three chapters a day,

every day. There's lots of different ways to do it. Sometimes I go through a season of just meditating on a verse for a couple weeks.

Yeah. Yeah. I I think that I would say also speaks to the role of the Holy Spirit in this. I think of my

prayer life and how I have just there's there's the meta thought about prayer itself and the idea

that I'll often pray like help me to pray like what how help me to seek you

in a way that would increase my view of you and and deepen my intimacy with you.

So it's like the prayer about prayer itself. And I think sometimes we forget to have those kinds of

thoughts and those kinds of prayers where we say this is a dynamic thing. I got my whole life kind of like a

relationship, right? I there's going to be different ways that I engage and it might be we're just chilling watching

something. Other times it's going to be real deep and hearttohe heart. But but it's a dynamic even holy

spirit-led process, right? And and sometimes I think we we fail to

it's because it becomes detached from the person that it becomes a ritual that becomes dry that then bears no fruit.

Yeah, you're so right. You know, that's the Pharisees, right? Reading the Bible

but not knowing Jesus is like is like studying a treasure map but never going and finding the treasure.

Yeah. I mean, they had the first five books of the Bible memorized to become a Pharisee. They couldn't even tell that

God was standing five feet away from them. So, I am all about anyone who wants to

say, "Hey, just because you're reading the Bible doesn't mean blank." Absolutely. We have to be doing it

correctly. I loved what you just said about prayer. I've encouraged people in my church. Hey, we're going to confess

our sins right now. And for some of us, we don't want to, but we want to want to. And you can start there in prayer.

You can say to God, "I don't want to do this, but I want to do what's right. Can

you fill that space for me because I need help?" Yeah. Yeah. And that's where the heart

of all of this is relationship and recognizing that it is all a cultivation of intimacy with Jesus. And so, even the

notion that you just wouldn't be honest, it's like I think there's a the Simpsons

quote where Bart says, "I'm not going to try, but I'm going to try to try." It's kind of that same vibe, right? It's like

he already knows, right? And I remember a season of my life where I sincerely felt like God was just saying, "Hey, how

about we just try gratitude for a while?" Just like how about if if the the the contents of your prayer were

nothing but just reflecting on all of the good things I've given you. And

so it was such an important season because it reframed the entire thing not as a

transactional experience but through the lens of simply being with my dad and

that being all that I needed to accomplish so to speak. And then in that

posture he breathes new life and dynamics into it as the thing evolves and grows which is great.

That's right. That's right. That's cool. Well, uh, to be honest, one of the reasons why I even found you, and

I wouldn't be surprised if you get this all the time, is your viral post about the billboard. And so, I'd be remiss to

I don't even know how or why, but like it I was just like, this is this is so

great. And I think it so speaks to a heart that doesn't want to speak at or

to people, but genuinely wants to know what they feel and think, so we can meet them in that place. So, you know, I'm

sure people can look it up and I can put a link to it, but could you just explain what that whole thing was and what the

outcome of the of that was and why you did it? Yeah, I was watching this TV show called

Nathan for you during co and I was thinking he does all these really cool

interesting like business stunts. And so just as a creative exercise I

thought okay so what is the Christian version of that where

you do something and the attention that it brings is part of the experiment in

order to gain eyes on an idea. Mhm. That's what Nathan Nathan Fielder does

in that show. And I thought, okay. So, I wrote down a bunch of ideas. And one of the ideas was

um get a billboard that asks people what they think about Christians. And I had

no idea what would happen or no idea how. I didn't have a teaching in mind.

And I think that that's key for stuff like this in my opinion because I'm not trying to shift the information into

anything. I was just like, I genuinely wonder what will happen. Mhm. And so I put it up on the 202 here for a

couple months and it was all negative, probably like 30. So the billboard was

it described Christians in one word and a phone number. And so I was getting a ton of text messages and it was like

hypocrite, judgmental were the top two. And then I would say like 10% of people

would say something amazing like loving. And pretty much everybody who sent in something positive I would send back are

you a Christian? And almost all of them said yes. And so I started learning something through that.

The thing I learned through that was wow Christians perception of themselves is different than other people's

perception. And then I started getting a lot of push back. People were like yeah because we know God and other people

don't. And I'm just like okay we know what love is and other people

don't. was the most the most common thing. And so then I looked up what Jesus said. He said even Pharisees and

tax collectors love. And I thought, I wonder which word he used for love. And

the word was agape. He said Jesus Christ the Lord. I found it real quick. Thought I would

just throw it up there for the watching audience. There it is. That's so cool. It was a lot of fun.

I bet it was. Sorry to interrupt you. Yeah. No, no, no. It's all good. Thanks for the picture. Jesus said, "Even tax

collectors and Pharisees agape each other. They love unconditionally." And

so when Christians want to say, "No, no, no. People don't think we're loving because they don't know what love is."

That's not what Jesus Christ, the Lord, said right now. Do I think that some people are agnostic and angry? Yes. Do I think that

some people resent Jesus and are mean to Christians? Yes. Do I think there is an agenda to move Christianity out of the

public square at the expense of things other things? Yes. But but do the people

around you experience you as patient, kind,

long, longsuffering, these types of things. So anyways, then I was like, "Wow, this is really interesting." And

then I put up another billboard that was like, "Hey, I'm sorry Christians haven't been more loving, but Jesus is." And I

put that one up in the exact same spot for a month. And there was nothing to do. There was no like come follow me or

anything. It just was there. And I thought there will be a certain segment of people that saw this and texted in

and they will still be thinking about it or they will remember it and maybe this will just be a slight gospel

just a proclamation of the good news of Jesus to anyone who still cares. Yeah.

what I I was inspired by it on many levels and hearing you explain the context makes it even even better.

Why why is this bridging of the gap

between what I feel like has become a very dichotomized reality of our church world and our secular world and there

seems to be very little meaningful interactions like the one that you

generated in quite a dramatic way. How do we inspire more of that? like how do we inspire more genuine dialogue and

really understanding and and where have our models gotten off and and how do you feel like we could learn from this

because there I think there's a lot of principles and nuggets and how you did that. Um could you expand on that a little

bit? Totally. I mean I think from my perspective it's about being in the world but not of the world. I like a lot

of the writings of the early desert fathers and monks but I don't think that that's a good thing to do with your life

because I don't think it matches Jesus' command. I'm sure there are exceptions to what I'm saying, but generally

speaking, I don't think that's something to aspire to. So, what are the spaces that we're in? The temptation of

postmodern internet society is I'm going to interact with a billion people for one second. You can't love someone in

one second. So, what is the spaces that you are in? What are your hobbies?

Where's your job, your neighborhood? What are the spaces that you are in? There are a lot of people that don't

care what I think. They don't care what you think, but they care what someone who's listening or watching thinks.

And so, we don't have to love a billion people because we know that a billion

people exist. I'm more thinking like your neighborhood. Would your neighbors ask

you if they needed something? Have your neighbors seen the inside of your house?

Then your work. Would your people at your work text you if they needed

something? Then I think one of the most untapped spaces of having conversations like this

is in your hobby space. For a lot of guys, it's sports and you're in a lot of

conversations. For a lot of other people, it's music. Those are the spaces that I'm in. I've been using a website

called Rate Your Music every day for like I don't know 16 or 17 years now. And I have tons of friends that I've met

on there. And um one guy even asked me to pray for him on there. I've never seen his face, but he was like, "My wife

just died and I need someone to pray for me." And I was like, "This is so amazing. This is like the greatest thing

that's ever happened to me. Like a stranger knows that I will do this for them." And it made me so happy. So all

that to say I think the private individual conversations amongst people

face to face where you are expressing the love of Jesus I think that that is

uh the way yeah talk about the element of risk in this

though right because even your billboard idea required a level of like okay I saw this

show this moment of inspiration But now I got to go do this thing and I don't know what it's going to produce. You

said you didn't necessarily have a plan for a lot of it other than just this would be a wild experiment. So

translating that into the context of the guy at his particular hobby or you know his

neighborhood or whatever there still is an element of having to present yourself in such a way that would make it known

that you're the kind of person who's available for this kind of thing. So what does someone do to

you know become known as that person? Well, I think it's being shrewd in conversation. So um specifically to

surface the idea I have noticed that the easiest way for me to start talking

about faith is through what I do for work. And that's different for other people. But I literally

ask everyone everywhere I go what they do for work. And I don't only ask them so they'll ask me back. I am curious. I

do want to understand other jobs. I want to understand what makes people tick and what's interesting to them. But I have

noticed that a lot of people will reciprocate and that will allow me to say, I teach the Bible for a living. Um,

have you ever read it? Do you attend church anywhere? And these these conversations just blow wide open. And I

would encourage people to think about something like that that you're genuinely curious about. It's not

manipulative. You're not trying to blank, right? and some sort of conversation opener. And what I found is is a lot of

people are very interested in talking about faith from the perspective of I used to attend church or not. It's like

a one degree separated from I am a Christian or I'm not. And they're really

comfortable talking about that. And you can have some amazing conversations with people through that. And um I think it's

a really it's kind of exciting. It's a really fun way of doing it. There's always a risk that people will be, you

know, frustrated with what you're saying, but that type of question line um makes it a bit easier.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know where I heard this or frankly who I even heard this from, but it it was like a social

interaction expert speaking from a secular perspective trying to combat the loneliness ep epidemic. and he was

basically saying, "Be the kind of person that asks one more question than you want to ask. Make it an open-ended

question and watch the amount of social interactions you have explode." And and

so I've been I've been trying this as a as I someone who I would, you know, I'd say I'm somewhat on the introverted

spectrum. Um but I've been doing that where I I'll you know, you get some guy comes in a you know, and this is not

even like your neighborhood or hobby. And I agree with you that is the primary spot. But speaking just from a random

interaction perspective, you'd be amazed at how when you'll just say, "Oh, how was your weekend?" Like, first

of all, people are way more interested in talking even to a stranger than you might realize. and you ask one

question or one more than you're necessarily comfortable with and you find yourself in all sorts of amazing conversations

with people who are desperately seeking to get past the superficial

social interactions that they have. So when you say that like like you said your in tends to be just what do you do

and I you have the I would say the uh unique dichotomy of it's a challenge cuz

when you say I'm a pastor here we go but it's also makes it very natural. So

it's there's kind of two sides to it. Isn't it really just as simple as

arm yourself with some great questions with a genuine desire to know and love people and get to know them and then

just be open to wherever the Holy Spirit might take that if it begins to open up in a spiritual direction.

Yeah, I think you're right. And I think that Christians have been fairly criticized for lacking curiosity because

we have this I go to heaven, he go to hell mentality. And it's like, yeah,

unless he gets saved. And so I think feeding your curiosity and actually

caring about I started thinking I've only ever worked at a church. I genuinely wonder how other people make

money. I know like what their job titles are but I don't know what they do all day. And I've just kept that little

curiosity in my heart and I have noticed that people don't ask men very often

what they do. They don't ask them five 10 questions about what they do. And it

is really just it's kind. Yeah. Yeah. No, I I agree. And and I

think also, you know, what I'm very interested in is learning how to have spiritual

conversations. And it it starts with a foundational belief that we are first of

all ubiquitously spiritually curious. Like we are all spiritually curious. I truly believe that in the sense of why

am I here? Who am I? Where am I going? What's the point of all of this? Those are fundamentally spiritual questions,

right? And then when you start with that premise that every person you're interacting with is spiritually curious.

And then you train your mind to look at life through the lens of those questions, I think opportunities come up

all the time. Like I'm thinking about the Coldplay situation, right? These this couple caught out at this Coldplay

concert. And if you view that through the lens of a spiritual conversation, you could say to your colleague or your

neighbor, why why do you think like betrayal and trust and relationships and

fidelity even matters to us? Like why do you think it's such a big deal? Like you think in 2025,

you know, and there's layers to it in tangents to it, but I guess the point I'm trying to make is isn't part of this

tuning your eyes to the sensitivity of people's spiritual curiosities and the

constant opportunities in our world to have those conversations even like music. Why do why do we care like as

highly evolved animals supposedly, why do we care about music? Why does it move

us? Why does it start movements and revolutions and riots? Like, do you

think part of it is kind of leaning your mind into those kinds of realities?

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. It's such an it's such a fun way to live in the human

race is to think about the connections between the mundane and the eternal. And I think

that that's one of the jobs of Christians. It's a job that artists and poets and painters understand, but it's

a job that Christians don't always understand. Interesting. And there is forever hidden in so many

things. That's one of my favorite things to talk about with random people.

Gratitude. You mentioned this ancient practice from scripture. It's mentioned like a trillion times in

Psalms. Now the science shows that it is very

very beneficial to your brain. How intriguing. So did did David guess that or did God

tell him that? These things are very interesting to me. Meditation. Meditation is notably proven to benefit

your brain. Wow. This is in scripture. I find these connections so intriguing.

Agreed. And it there is a lot more ways to have a spiritual conversation with a

person than to bring them to a point of do I or do they not want to become

saved. Now if the Lord asks me to do that, I will do that. But there's also planting seeds, loving people, being

kind, and all of that stuff. Yeah. How much do you think this is complicated by a overreaction to a a

Christian evangelistic culture that was so a cookie cutter

close the deal got to get the sale done five laws rather than a a more of a

missional integrated this is who I am it's going to come up I'm going to be

the guy at the party that asks and talks about these things but that almost scene

is not, you know, it's not zealous enough and so it's discounted as an

approach when and so people have just gone, well, if I'm not going to be the five spiritual laws guy, maybe I'll just

step out of this whole space alto together. Yeah, certainly there are spiritual gifts where the people that are great at

them and are gifted in them pressure everyone else to do the same thing and that's not beneficial. We are all called

to be to evangelize. But we are not all gifted as evangelists

in the same way that the Lord has gift the Lord has gifted me to teach and I'm super thankful to him for that cuz I

love studying and teaching but I'm not going to go into a room of people and be like who are you teaching? Who are you

teaching? Who are you teaching? We're all called to teach our families but most people that's not their gift. They

don't have to do that. and the fixation on results in America plus the promotion

of the gift of evangelism has created that thing. I mean, how when

was the last time that you were approached by a stranger talking to you,

they had an agenda and a script and that changed your mind because

That happens when I'm at the mall and people are handing me something and I immediately turn off,

right? And that happens with me at my front door and we have a no solicitors sign and I still try to be kind to those

people, but it is frustrating to me, especially if I'm taking a nap and someone rings the doorbell and I'm like, I've purchased and installed this sign

so that this doesn't happen, right? They have an agenda. They don't care about me as a person, right? I think the greatest move of

evangelism is in long-term relationships where your friendship is not on the

line. Because the person in the mall who's handing out that card, the person at the door is

ringing my doorbell, their desire to talk to me has nothing to do with

anything except the sale. That's it. Once I say no, they walk away, right?

That's it. There's nothing else to it. And if evangelism comes across like that,

I don't think that's going to be a benefit to the church of Jesus Christ in 2025 and beyond. So rather, and I'm not

saying that this type of evangelism shouldn't exist. I'm not saying God can't tell people to do it. I'm not saying that people shouldn't do it. I'm

saying that the standard shouldn't be this elite version of it. And we also

have to compare fruit, what's actually bearing fruit, and put more energy into that. Right? the ways that I see the

most people. I've heard a billion testimonies and I want to hear a billion more. And the majority of people number

one were taught by their parents and they got saved or they made a profession and walked away from their faith and

then came back or they made a profession and walked away from their faith, their life fell apart and then they came back.

That's probably 80% of the testimonies I've ever heard are one of those three things. And then after that you hear

about people who never knew Christ and blah blah blah kind of the more interesting testimonies. It's not mine

but it's perhaps the more interesting one. Sure. So if the majority of people that we've met

who've gotten saved have gotten saved through familyoriented ministry, families coming to youth group, families

coming to church together, then this should be a thing that we focus on if we care about evangelism. And in addition

to that, I think we need to just accept the fact that people are inherently

distrustful of a person trying to sell them something. And so if society has moved away from that, how can we adapt?

Because the method is not important. The message is important. Yeah. No, you're right. I think it's a

body of Christ thing. I think it's a calling thing. It's Yeah. You know, I I come from a weird uh family dynamic

where, you know, my dad started this punk rock band in the 80s that is still going today. It's morphed and evolved a

lot, but it goes all over the world, big public squares, preaches the gospel. So, it's definitely more on the extreme end.

What band was your dad? Uh, it's called No Longer Music. Um, was the name of it, but it's this it's this

wild ministry thing. It more such a punk name. It's such an amazing punk name. it more primarily just goes

by the acronym NLM today. Um, and and I I creatively lead it. And so it's it's

definitely more on that extreme end of bold proclamation evangelism and

producing extraordinary interesting testimonies. Um, but I

Oh my gosh, I just looked up the band. They have an album called No Sex. That was back in the 80s. Yeah.

That's like one of the greatest things I've ever seen. The cover

the cover is awesome. I maybe buried the lead. Oh my gosh. With you. I definitely buried the lead.

I should have started there. The whole tone of the conversation would have been way only thing I care about now. The second

we are finished with this, I'm going to listen to the album No Sex. Oh, that's that's wild and I love that.

Yeah. So, I buried the lead. I have a very strange uh family legacy in life. But as it relates to this, dude, like I

I completely agree that it it has to be

the body of Christ and it's about what has God called me to. And by and large,

the role of the evangelist is unusual. And then the role of the sort of proclamation evangelist and the way we

do it, it's probably even more rare. But what can you just talk to the cost though? because I do think that we're

foreigners, not citizens. You know, I I was having a conversation with a guy not too long ago and he works

a lot with persecuted places and and he had this quote that was really haunting and he said

something to the effect of our lack of persecution is really just an indication of our silence. like we are only not

experiencing persecution because we are unwilling to speak and and and it's it's really

and so is there not still despite all of that giftings, callings, contexts, a

recognition that there is a picking up of my cross and there is a I'm going to

be a foreigner for standing up against a prevailing mindset and spirit of our

age. H how do we not bury over that in a mountain of calling and context and well

yeah absolutely I mean I think people mistake the difference for um opposing ideas and opposing people.

Sure. Like if someone says to me like hey what do you think about the idea of

transgenderism being a completely accepted inner form of truth? I would

say I I don't believe that idea. I don't think that that's true. But when someone came to my office and said, "Hey, my

sister's transgender. Can I talk to you about it?" You know, that's a very different thing. That's a person. Y it does not mean that I'm not going to

say the truth. It just means that I really care about this person. And it's really important that this person

understands that God loves them and all of this stuff. And um so I like to lead with truth with ideas and grace with

people. And I think that that is a great way for um in my opinion for Christians

to stay in the public square. I don't want I genuinely don't want anyone to be

condemned. It's not even the call of the church to condemn people outside of the church anyway. It's not our call to

judge people outside of the church. But I will judge every idea that's a fact.

And I will make sure that every idea I believe is correct before I integrate it into my life. And um I don't think that

should be mutually exclusive. I mean I I Yeah. Yeah. And yet doing that is going to in

a world that has inextricably linked ideas and people

inseparably, right? If you don't affirm my ideas, you don't affirm me, right? And so we can

say that and yet it's going to put us in opposition to a world that has made just

for example sexual identity the fundamental thing we worship now in

society. Right. So there there is going to be a degree of and a cost that is just unavoidable if we're going to be

faithful followers of Jesus today. Absolutely. Absolutely. And there's no getting around it.

No. No. But there is a way to not like dive into it as aggressively as

possible, which I think is what we're both saying. Yeah. There's got to be something between fight and flight, right? And I

think that a little bit of the challenge that you see, I think in the church, you have people who say, "Okay, I'm taking

this on. I'm going to all the bumper stickers, all of the articles, all of the things. That's me. I'm going to take

it on." And then you have the other people who are like, "Dude, I'm out. I'm no thanks. Pol, you know, what is it?

Religion and politics out of parties. I'm going to be that guy. And I think training people to be

effective cultural apologists and witnesses for Christ in an organic

way while still embracing the cost of being different.

Like you're just not popularity and following Jesus just are never going to be perfectly congruent.

And you're going to have to embrace that to some degree, but you don't have to be a jerk in the process. I think that's what we're both trying to say.

Yeah. Ah man, I feel like I could go in so many directions, but I feel like every direction I have would take us like

another hour and another tangent. So, how about I just close with this? What are you feeling? Like what is burning on

your heart? What what what things do you anticipate coming down the line that you

are like, man, these are real concerns for the church and for the world? Just a light closer there before we uh

ride off into the night or whatever. Yeah. before the end just all of your thoughts on all of life and eternity. Um

I think that in 60 seconds if that's okay for social media. Absolutely. You know we have to remember

that Christianity is spiritual and that spirituality is the foundation of reality and so Christianity is not just

an intellectual consent to ideas. Christianity is a person. Yeah. And he

has given us his spirit. And I would encourage every Christian to examine this idea. Have I interacted actually

with the spirit, the Holy Spirit? Or do I just believe true statements about

him? And if I haven't, did Jesus not say, "How much more will you will your

heavenly father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask in Luke 18?" Okay. Well, I have to ask a follow-up

question to that. It's too too crucial. How for someone who maybe hears those

words and is like, "Whoa, okay." You know, that whole depart from me. I never knew you is a is a very haunting verse

for me. Mhm. Beyond asking and maybe asking is is all that it takes. But how does someone

examine their heart in respect to that pretty intense idea? Yeah. I think we should

recognize that naturalism, individualism, and the enlightenment have convinced people that the only

thing that's real is what they can see and touch. And Christianity is different than that. Mhm. And so we should expect it to be as

spiritual as the New Testament does. And um not as a matter of salvation, but as

a matter of abundant life in Christ. Yeah. Yeah. Well said, Landon. I

appreciate this, man. It's been awesome. And uh I hope you enjoyed it as well. And uh how can we be praying for you in

this next season uh as a community here? How can we support you? Oh, pray for my church. Pray for me by

name. That would mean a lot to me. It really, really, really, really would. And it really, really, really makes a

difference. Okay. Remind me of the name of your church again. Mission. Mission. Okay. Jesus, I thank you for my

brother. I thank you for my new friend uh and the way I've been blessed by his

insight, his wisdom, his clear and obvious love for you. I pray Jesus that you would bless him and his family in

this next season. Being a pastor is no joke. It is it is hard work. It is tough

soil and I know his heart yearns to see people grow and to move and to be fully

who you created them to be in and outside of the walls of the church. And so I pray for protection, Lord, that you

would give him as much influence as his character could handle and no more. That

you would continue to produce godly character in him. That his influence might be able to expand in in great ways

for your sake in your kingdom. I pray for his church, for mission. Lord, I pray that they would be a place known

for loving you. Um, and that you would use your son to help lead them in that

direction through the power of your Holy Spirit and for your glory. We love you and thank you for this conversation in Jesus name. Amen.

Amen. Thank you so much. What an honor. Thanks for watching Provoke and Inspire. If you enjoyed this content, could you do me a favor and hit that like button?

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