Do We Love Like Jesus? | Jackie Hill Perry

All right, so we're going. So, Jackie Hill Perry, I have been looking forward to this for so long and thank you so

much for for being willing to be on the Provoke and Inspire podcast. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. Thank you for

doing this. And look, I know that you have probably told your story so many times and I know most people probably be

familiar with who you are and what you do. Um, but if you'd be willing to share kind of your context, like how you came

to Jesus and then what that is, how that has led to this amazing life you now live as a poet and speaker and artist

and podcaster. It's a wild journey and if you wouldn't mind sharing it, I know everyone would be blessed.

Yeah. In summary, uh, raised in St. Lewis to a single mother and a pretty

inconsistent father who dealt with uh mental illness and um depression and

substance abuse and things. Um and the irony of that is I think I got my mind from him even though I didn't know him.

And so it's like I'm benefiting from just his genes. But any uh so I wasn't necessarily

raised in a Christian household, but I was introduced to Christian stuff uh

through my aunt Merl. She was the first person I saw love her enemies and pray and read the Bible and dress modestly

and go to church faithfully. And that was a stark contrast to what I was seeing Monday through Saturday. And so

it just intrigued me and I had this just kind of innate in curiosity around God, Jesus, scripture, all the stuff. Um,

growing up I got introduced to porn probably around seven, six or seven. Uh,

dealt with some sexual molestation. uh some confusion about my identity as a

as a girl um because I didn't seem to fit the mold of what girly was.

Um samesex desires, all the stuff and a lot of things didn't really hit the fan,

I guess you would say, until high school cuz I just was like, you know, I kind of want to do what I want to do. Like I

just I don't want to keep acting out acting like I'm a good girl and I'm not. And so I just started smoking weed like

crazy. got hyper rebellious towards all authority figures. Um, you know, was

going to gay clubs, gay parades, drinking, um, doing all the stuff and it cuz it felt free. It felt like freedom.

Um, but then there was this part of my conscience that could not shake that it wasn't right. And I didn't like that. I

felt that way. It wasn't fun to have a conscience for me. And so, um, I

eventually heard the Lord speak to me in 2008 in my bedroom, uh, that the girl I

was with would be the death death of me, which then provoked me to do a survey of my life up against what he was calling

me to. And I realized that everything I loved, not just sexual sin or weed or whatever, everything I loved, I loved

more than him. And so by the power of God's spirit, I repented and just

trusted him. Didn't know I was trusting him. Didn't know I was repenting. Didn't have language for that. I just knew I

was making a decision to move differently. Uh and then from that place, I went to a college, realized I

could write creatively. I knew I was a good writer. That was always a thing. Um, but I never saw writing and

communication as the means that God would use me to make disciples of all

nations and baptizing them in the name of the father and son and holy spirit. So yeah, it just kind of happened. I got

saved and stuff happened. Yeah. Wow. That this profound and simple

at at the same time. And honestly, I feel like I can relate, right? you you just kind of take these steps one after

another and it's not necessarily a master plan, but God just kind of starts to weave things together and you look

back and it's this you go, "How did I end up doing all this?" I mean, do do you feel like you always had this desire

to take that profound experience that you had, that transformation that you had, and then share that with others, or

was just was that just a natural outpouring of your gifts and and circumstances? Yeah. I mean, as soon as

I became a believer, I immediately started teaching and but I had no concept. I think now

probably new believers have a harder time with contentment. Um because you know

this is 2008 and so we had MySpace, we had Facebook, we didn't have Instagram,

Twitter was very simple. And what that means is I didn't think about teaching

or communicating to masses or on a large scale. It simply was, "Oh, let me write

a Facebook status that God has saved me. Oh, let me go to church and tell all the

people. Oh, I work at Wendy's. I'm going to tell all of my co-workers what God did." And so, it was an immediate

impulse to tell the truth. It was immediate. And that's before I knew how to gift the teaching. I just I just

wanted to tell people what was true. I couldn't help. So, I had no idea it

would become this. Um, but I also wasn't I just didn't even care about all of

that. I didn't. Wow. What a weird interesting paradox that, you know, we live in this time now

where, as you said, today we have in theory access to millions of people with

whatever we're doing. And that's created both a seduction I think that is

unhealthy but also a paralysis that my world is a stage you know even if it's kind of a delusion for most people

there still is that perception where your response was so localized it was like this is my environment this is what's

happened in my life I don't have these delusions of grandeur like I'm on a stage for a million people right I'm

just sharing with the people I interact with at Wendy's. Yeah. Yeah. And and it's and it's I

often use my time at Wendy's to encourage people to be faithful where you are.

Yeah. Just be faithful where you are. Like I I I tell this story about how one time I

was uh I saw on the schedule I had to work during Easter and I was irritated cuz I'm like it's Easter. I want to go

to church. Yeah. That's what Christians do. And I was trying to finesse all the stuff like

I'll work for you on this day if you work for me. and nobody would switch

with me. And then I started to say, "God, do you want me here on Easter?" And so I was like, "Okay, if you want me

here, then use me." And while we were standing by the fry station, I just

started to teach them about the resurrection. That's no different than what I do now, right? It's not like I'm

more useful now just because more people hear it. That's not true. I don't know. I don't want us to think that way. To

me, it's like, no, like be faithful where you are. And you just have no idea

what God can do with you just being a person who preaches the gospel to one

person. One person can change the world. So, I mean, who preached the gospel to Billy Graham and look what happened? So,

that's that's how I think about it. I love preaching by the fry station. I think if that's if that's not the title

of a biography, I don't know what is. It's funny though because you you mentioned that about Billy Graham and that's often like one of those I don't

know those moments that we point to, right? Look what can happen when you preach to one person and yet we that's

sort of uh wrapped up in the idea but then he went on to preach to the masses. And so built into that assumption is

that if I do a small thing it will still lead to a big thing. Yes. And my question with you as it

relates to faithfulness is, you know, we have a generation that I think is enamored by platform and is enamored by

the idea that success ultimately will look like big

and and rather than maybe your job is to pre preach to someone that will not end

up preaching to millions but just that's it. You will preach to that person and they will be saved.

How have you as someone who has a platform? I'm sure you feel like this catch catch 22.

I don't. But how do you how do you speak to a generation that is so enamored by big

being success? Yeah, I will say we should not despise big

in that um and even the word big I don't I don't

know. We we just shouldn't despise the way God decides to glorify himself.

Interesting. Yeah. So maybe that's the framing where there are those who we

have the Spurgeons and the Grahams and the Martin Luther Kings and the King

Davids and the Solomons and the Tim Kellers who that's what that's how the

Lord has decided to glorify himself. So I wouldn't You have some people that might be if the Lord starts to extend

their platform, they're like, "No, no, no, no, no, stay." It's like, "No, if that's what the Lord is calling you into, walk in that."

But also, I think the greatest framework I have for all of this is greatest in

the kingdom is servant of all. That has to shape everything because then that

means if I'm on a huge platform or what somebody would call a small platform,

the question is am I serving? Am I serving? And so if I'm serving,

then that is actually how God defines greatness. And the beautiful thing about

what when the Holy Spirit produces humility is that you can be in a position where God is saying they are

doing great things by discipling their children. They are doing great things by being kind to the person on the street.

They are doing great things by putting up the chairs at church. But if you are humble, which the Holy Spirit has to

produce, then you don't even consider that as greatness. You just it's just right.

It's surface. And so I think for this generation, I think we need to redefine greatness again.

Yeah. And we need to I think we need to like listen to Jesus when it comes to those

things. And I want to say under cuz I I like to d I like to help people process their motives underneath

some of the addiction to fame, celebrity, and influence is really

deeprooted insecurities that need to be dealt with with the gospel. Yeah. So if you have a bunch of followers, you

end up feeling more important when it's like you need to find that in Christ.

Yeah. Because if you don't find it in Christ, you're going to use these followers to quench a thirst that they

can't quench. Yeah. Yeah. It's a dangerous game. Yeah. Yeah. You had mentioned earlier

that we wrestle with a level of discontentment now that we may not have in light of the platforms that we have.

And I I think that's exactly right. You said that greatness is defined in servantthood.

But I think we can also walk in whatever God has for us if our satisfaction is

found in him alone. Right? If we don't confuse calling with

satisfaction or or purpose or significance, right? And it's when those

things, as you say, get mixed, that's when things get complicated, right? They do get complicated. And the Lord is

so kind where wherever he calls you when

you're leaning into him, he will give you wisdom to steward your conscience,

your character, all the stuff, you know, because I even last year

I got off social media for six months and it was a good test for me and uh

trial for me because staying home and like

doing diapers every day and cleaning the house and sweeping. It wasn't like I

wasn't doing that before when things were busy. It's just that I had all of these big things to offset that. M

but it was like when I wasn't writing the book, when I wasn't doing the conferences, when I wasn't doing all the stuff, I realized that there was a level

of being just simply a mother and a wife didn't feel good enough. It didn't feel

like I was accomp it was I didn't feel like I was accomplishing something. And so the Lord had to really reorient me to

say like, no, like this actually is a big deal to love your family, to be here

for your family, and your identity cannot be in the things you accomplish. And so I think the Lord causes that

where it's like he just helps to train you in contentment wherever he has

placed you. And I don't know I don't know how I got there but I just No, it's brilliant. Brilliant.

He guides us in all the things. But you we you said something so great which is that he trains us in

contentment because I think sometimes we can believe that contentment is just a willpower thing or a decision or

something that we have or don't have. Yeah. And yet, man, we are naturally

wired to be discontented, I think, to be to strive, to want, to for it never to

be enough. And so, it there is a healthy disciplining of being trained or being allowing

ourselves to be trained in contentment, right? Because it's a process that we I'm sure you're still going through. I

know I am. Yeah. I mean, even Paul said, "I have learned learned learned the secret of

contentment." So, that means this is a trial and error. You know what I'm saying? So when he was a based, he was

learning contentment. When he when he was abounding, he was learning contentment. And so I I'm I think this

last year is the first time that I've I've stopped putting so much so much pressure on myself to sanctify myself.

And what I mean is obviously the Bible says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. So we aren't supposed to

work, but it says it is him who wills and uh who works in you to will and work for his good pleasure. there. I'm all

like sanctification is also it's like me leaning into spiritual disciplines, but it's also knowing he's going to create

some trials to deal with that. He's going to create some affliction to to deal with that. How about you abide

today? Abide in me and you'll bear much fruit. You're not abiding. You're you're

working a whole lot and you wonder why you're not changing. And so I'm I I guess I want to release the pressure of

if you have struggle with contentment, read all the texts about contentment,

confess, pray all the prayers, but also know that those seeds that have been planted, God himself has to bring to

growth. And so that's just helped me have a lot less like condemnation on myself when I'm not what the scripture

says I should be overnight. That's a lot. But yeah. Yeah. No, that's that's so good. I

I was interviewing a friend of mine, Josh Porter. He's from a band, Showb Bread, and I was an author and a pastor.

And he he said this brilliant thing about self-denial. And he said that for him, self-denial was a surrender to

love. And what he meant and what I think was so profound is that self-denial in a lot

of ways is a releasing of the striving. It's a releasing of the religiosity of

the thinking I got to be me plus all these things to find satisfaction in Jesus. And for him, self-denial was just

saying letting go that God loves me like he actually loves me. That doesn't mean

I I don't have to change some things and he doesn't want to work some things out. But man, that that recognition,

that surrender to love, it starts with that, right? simple and as hard as that is,

I I really think the whole love piece is probably one of the hardest things.

And you would think it isn't. As much as we talk about God loving us, as many songs we got, we all know John 3:16, but

God so loved the world. You know what I'm saying? But I I I think a part of sin's damage

is just faith. We just don't Adam and Eve didn't

believe they had everything in him. And so I just think it's a core issue like oh like you love me and see me and if

you're a person like me I have like a law bent and I think we all do but I

have a bent where it's like no no no but I I know you cleanse me but I still got to be

a great person. I know you said I'm righteous in Christ but I'm not righteous enough. So I I always feel

like God loves me but might have a side eye towards me always. And you know you

live that way or you know you believe that when you kind of treat people that way where people have to live up to a

certain standard for you for you to experience your love and grace. And so I'm even seeing like oh like you

struggle with forgiveness because you don't really believe you're forgi forgiven. And so I don't know I just I'm

seeing this like Holy Spirit help me. Yeah. So,

I know it's it's like you said, it's seems like something we graduate from,

right? Like class number one is God loves me. Okay. Check. Yeah. And yet there's something that is

disjointed, like dislocated that the the fall has created this inability for us to just perfectly receive that love. And

so then we know it cognitively, but man, we fight it and we resist it and we add to it and and then you said it, it has

this compounding impact on the way we treat one another, which is why we've got to get that part

right or it just has this cascading effect on everyone. Yeah. Yeah. I I had a conversation with

Jada Edwards for our podcast uh two days ago cuz she has a book about loving your neighbor. And I asked her that question,

you know, I was like, we I was like, I think love just kind of stays here. It's an idea that we know, but how do we

distill that into the way we um live and and think and all this

stuff? And she was like, you know, praying and asking the Lord to rehearse

specific part parts of your history where he loved you. Because sometimes we know God loves us

generally. God loves us. But what if you ask God, "Show me where you have loved me."

You know where you he might show you like no that that time when that friend

rejected you and you were hurt by it, but you realized that she would have led you into all types of sin, that was him

loving you. And so I I I'm I'm about to start practicing that because we just did the interview. I ain't had time, but

what it would look like to just ask God to reveal specific I know the cross, but

the cross has made way for me to experience his love in the diversity of ways. And so it's like, show me how you

have loved me and allow that to permeate in my heart in such a way where there's

no other competition anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's there's the role of the Holy Spirit in

in softening my resistance to that. And as you said, there's the building of

altars to the times of and moments where God has exemplified that.

Uh I think we can be really positive agents of that to one another.

You know, I know um my wife, for example, can really deal with a perfectionism streak. And I think maybe

similar to what you were describing and you know God used there's always this this powerful story in her past where

this guy who's just very quiet not not an overly spiritual kind of gifts of the

spirit kind of guy just wrote her this simple note that just said you are enough and just and they didn't even have like

a particularly strong friendship but just just one day just handed that to her and like it was just so evident

that it was God using him through the power of the Holy Spirit to remind her of something that seems so basic, right?

Like how many songs that have those words in them. And yet that still is one

of the more profound moments she describes as this indication that God really does love her.

And so I think God can use we can use we can be agents of that for each other as well. I think

yeah that's Ephesians that's you I mean even he prays that they all would know

the depth and the width uh and the height of his love. It's like this is plural.

This is about us experiencing this together. So that's great. Yeah. One one of the ways that I think

God has really used you powerfully is is to speak with a a prophetic edge with with a willingness to step into

difficult spaces. And obviously we live in a even more tense time with with the

whole idea of truth and being willing to speak the truth. And as a follower of Jesus, how do we how do we do that?

Well, how do we discern when to how to um because we need it.

But there's a lot of complexity to it, I think, too, right? It's a ton because I even see us our

tones shifting a bit. Um where we are

loving being truth tellers, but I don't know how much we're loving the people we're

telling the truth to. And so I do think a core core core thing

is love of the Lord, you know, cuz loving the Lord gives you the courage to

tell the truth, but also the discernment and the compassion to tell the truth to

a person or a group of individuals and all of that. So I just think I think we have to cultivate love with the Lord. I

also think we need to be mindful of our temperaments. I think that's important. So my temperament is very direct. My

temperament can be assertive, aggressive, which means I need to lean into compassion and gentleness a lot.

Yes. So before I'm about to teach or before I'm about to have a conversation, it's praying for empathy. It's praying

for gentleness. And gentleness doesn't mean I'm not direct, but there's just a way. We know we know the difference.

there's just a way you do it. But if you're a person who might lean more on the nice, gentle side naturally, you

need to pray for boldness and courage. And so even being aware of your temperament allows you to tell the truth

in a way uh that is helpful cuz I I just don't think we realize we can hinder people's ability

to receive truth because we are supposed to be ambassadors of Christ. And so how

you tell it matters just as much as what you tell. And we've been beating this drum for

centuries, but here we are. Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. There's

there's a an expression that I I've been saying for a while and it seems like a

strange expression on its face, but you know, our mission is all about telling people about Jesus. And so we've been

preaching the gospel in in non-Christian places for our entire existence. And one

of the phrases I love is the point is not that you preach the gospel. The point is that people accept Jesus.

Now, this seems like a weird way to put it. They freak out, right, a little bit. But

what what I'm saying in essence is that it's not just that you do the deed, that

you just communicate the thing. Mhm. The the idea is that people you care

enough about people to communicate in such a way, not diluting the essence or distorting from the message,

but so they would they would actually get that. And I think you see that exemplified by Jesus or Paul to the

Athenians in Acts 17. What role does relevance and nuance and

contextualization play for you as an artist and as a trutht teller?

It's huge because I think underneath all of that is curiosity. M so the people I see fail at telling the

truth are usually people who aren't curious. And so I've had conversations where I wait 10 minutes before even

getting to the gospel cuz I want to get to know you. Yeah. I want to know why you think the way you think or what might have caused that

progression of thought. Or if I go into a church setting, I meet with the leaders and say what are some of the

needs and questions and struggles of this air area of this church of this

region because I want that that's what contextual I need to know what's happening here to know how best to apply

that truth to this circumstance. Yeah. And so I I just think curiosity matters.

So if you feel like you know best, you know better, or like you don't need to

ask good questions, you're not you will be helpful. I just don't know if you

will be as helpful as you could be, if that makes sense. Yeah. No, it totally makes sense. And I

would just say that I think there is a spirit out there and I'm not trying to

be judgmental here, but there is a spirit out there that says I so believe in this truth that that really it's just

about me communicating it. Like I don't there's even maybe this is on the

extreme end, but there are people who are like I don't even care. You know, on the very very extreme end, you got the guy with the sign saying, you know, God

hates you and blah blah blah. But a more subtle version of that is this is true and take it or leave it. I am I'm going

to be out there speaking this truth and and I I think it again speaks to

motivation, right? Because ultimately it's motivation that leads to curiosity that leads to a more nuanced approach.

Yeah. We don't love people. I think we just need to say that we we don't we

don't love people. And I am a person that struggles with loving people. Yeah.

So, I have to work hard to think about people when communicating to people

because I don't want to be a clanging gong, right? Where it's like, bet, you was

walking in that gift. That was powerful. You articulated that gospel presentation. So, but you don't even

like or love the people you just gave it to. And I see that. I see that, too. So,

it's like I'm going to weigh that to Jackie. And so, I I just I think we need

to beg God while especially if we're doing apologetic work. That's why I think Preston's book, How to Tell the

Truth, is important. Apologetic work, evangelistic work, uh preaching work, hermeneutic work,

whatever it is, you have to always be asking and begging and praying, God,

help me love people. Help me love people. I want to because it that I want to love your truth. I want to be

faithful, but you care about love. Read First John

and tell me God don't care about love. And so I I just think that's what we're seeing is just we don't we don't love

people like that. And until we're willing to admit it, we're going to struggle. Oh man, so much simple truth. It's so

convicting. I totally get what you're saying. I heard you say somewhere else this brilliant quote. You said, "It's always easier for me to walk in my gift

than to develop my character." And I just loved the way you articulated that and and one of the things we did

yesterday is um so we went for a while we've been planning this thing called the popup podcast and the idea was

without asking for permission let's just roll up to the University of Minnesota where I'm from huge secular liberal

university set up this little compact cool looking podcast setup bring coffee cold brew is

a nice day which is a miracle in Minnesota and just have spiritual conversations like that was the whole

premise and this was, you know, planned for months, of course, before the whole Charlie Kirk thing. And so it was it was

a tense time. Mhm. And so we're planning on doing this and I'm driving in and I'm thinking about

all the logistics and I'm I'm a very task driven kind of person and stressing

about this and I'm stressing about that. And honestly, exactly to your point, I almost felt like God say, "Hold up. Do

you care about the people you're about to talk to?" Yeah. Like I know this is a task that you're excited about and you want to

check this box and get the footage and you want to do all this stuff, but just for a second, can we pause? Do

you care? Like do you actually care? Mhm. Because like you said, it does not come

naturally to me. And I don't think it come There are some people maybe for whom it comes a little more naturally, but I think part of the

fallen human heart is not just that we don't receive love, is that we don't give it very easily either. And and

we've got to actively kill that, right? Because how like how ridiculous that I

could be entering into a space like that, correct? And forget to bring my heart with me. Like what is that about?

Yeah. I mean, that really is the thing I remember talking Yeah. And and I

I think some of this is one remembering things like Galatians, right? So

Galatians 5 says, "A fruit of the spirit is love." That tells me I actually need the spirit to produce this.

Mhm. Second, I think knowing that even it says in the last days, love will wax

cold. And so what we see on social media and what what's happening even within churches and in friend groups, there's

so much stuff seems more tense, more complicated. Uh, I think also

being self-aware, you you you were able to pause and hear

the Lord prompt your heart or your mind to just, hey, man, like make sure you're doing this the right way. And that comes

with intimacy. It does. It comes it comes with just spending time with the Lord, spending

time with his people, being discipled by people that do the thing you're doing well, so that you even have some checks

and balances where you know like, oh, like I'm just here to like do what I got to do versus here to be faithful.

Yeah. Yeah. I think so much of our struggle also is in isolation, right? I

think even in our church and mission culture, we have created this we come up with the idea in our bases.

You know, even you think about the the language in missions, it's like missions base and outreach. It's it's like

military language. It's like it's not living among the people, caring about

the people. It's like con conceiving of strategies to then go out there into the big big bad world, do our thing, and

then retreat back to our bases. And I think so much of why people become

depersonalized subjects that we talk to or or or rather talk about rather than

to is simply because we don't actually get with them face to face.

I mean, yesterday I'm I'm talking to all of these students, talking to this one

young guy, and he's I'm like like you said, I'm listening to him. I'm just asking him about purpose and meaning and

he's sharing about his dad who's this artist, you know, and he's in like the

uh he's like a flute player in like the duth philarmonica like he's just this

crazy musician and he just talks about how his dad doesn't make any money but he loves it and he's so content and I'm

listening to all this and I'm listening to all this God is starting to give me the my a heart for this guy and I I say

to him, you know, I think your dad is content because he's discovered exactly

how he was made and what he was made for, right? He doesn't need Yeah, he wants to live and eat and provide for

his family, but he has discovered his purpose and his purpose is derived from

an understanding of his identity. Ba basically, I I did not have a heart for this guy

until I sat down, till I looked him in the eye, until I started to hear his story. And then also coincidentally, not

coincidentally, in that context, God gave me the curiosity to understand him

and what would speak to his heart. Yeah. And I think so much of this is we've got to get out of our bubbles.

Yeah. Right. We actually got to get with people who don't think like us in order to humanize them again.

Yeah. Which is it reminds me of um Philippians 2. um you know Christ did

not count equality with God a thing to be grasped but emptied himself uh took on flesh uh and served but also how him

even just becoming human was for him to empathize as a high priest. And so I

think so much of ministry needs to be that sense of presence.

Yeah. Of coming with and around and near so that I can serve you appropriately.

And I think the hindrance is not having the mind that was in Christ Jesus who

did not count equality with God a thing to be grasp. And so even praying for Christ's mind um in that way. And so

much of this is just being honest. I feel like I need to keep saying that because we're because we're not honest

with ourselves about our weaknesses. We don't have the power required to walk in

the calling we have. If I am afraid to admit I don't love people because it makes me feel like a

sinner, then it's like, no, the confession actually releases you from that thing so

you can receive God's power. If you're like, "Yeah, I just I love ministry, but I don't love people." Say that.

Say that. Some people, let's be clear, some people struggle with porn. That might not be your problem. Your

problem might be lovelessness. Yeah. God still just likes it. You get what I'm saying? So, it's like

the same intensity and work and watchfulness and confession and

accountability that some people have with sexual sin. Some of us talking to me, I have relational weaknesses because

of how I was raised, but how I was cultivated, how I was, but that's also a part of my call. And so the relational

weaknesses always presses me into dependence because I realize I have the gift of communication. But if I don't

have the love, it doesn't matter. So I'm always having to press into God to just simply love, to listen, to care, to

empathy, to be compassionate. And so th those weaknesses actually make you more

effective because it means that when you walk in the call that God has given you, it comes from his power and not your own

strength. Wow. But you are able to approach it in

that way because what I can feel from you is that you have a true love and intimacy with Jesus. And the phrase that

I use all the time is that you're able to pursue even becoming more like Christ out of a place of wholeness.

paradoxically not for it. And that is so vitally different than a deficit mindset as it relates or

pertains to your relationship with Christ. Because if you are still not accepting and and

allowing that love of God to permeate you and and give you that sense of like God loves me. Yes, he wants me to grow,

but he already loves me. Like he already accepts me. Yeah. That gives you the ability to be a

bold trutht teller and brutally honest at the same time. Yeah. Because it's not about any of that. It's

not about you at all. And and you have the confidence to deal with your stuff because as

paradoxical as it sounds, you are already whole and yet broken still, right? And and I think that is so much

of where the freedom I experience comes from as well. is that I know God loves me and my motivation to change is not

for his approval, but I love his design because I trust him because of his love for me. So, anything I can shed that

would make me more like him is going to be for my great greater good and for the benefit of those around me.

And so, let's go. Like, let's deal with let's deal with the stuff. I don't even I can say with all sincerity like I'm I

want to grow. Yeah. Um I even want to grow in the ways I don't want to grow. Like I recognize the

resistance and I want that to change too. So how much of this is about operating from wholeness, not for it,

man. Um maybe all of it.

Yeah. Um I think of John 4 with the woman at

the well. You know, we all know her story, but how Jesus says, "I have I have water

to drink that you know not of." M and how after she hears Jesus say that and they

bant her, she leaves the water jug that she had to get some natural stuff

because I think she's found the right stuff, right? And after that, she goes and tells

people about Christ from that place of fullness. And so I do think that it

matters um how we are getting our thirst quenched.

Yeah. how often we are going to God and this this really um is God's doing in

our life where he is constantly showing us all the places of us where we're weak and we need him

but it's just a strange thing to be like man I am such a jar of clay and yet

I have a treasure so I think it's I think it's all of it and we won't obviously walk in like

perfect fullness or wholeness every day like that's where glory is but at least we should pursue Yeah, love it. Well, you got your hands

full. I want to make sure I get to some talk about your album, which is awesome and came out very recently. It's called

Blameless. It's very interesting concept using this image of a house and rooms.

Can you describe a little bit about what inspired that and kind of what God has already started to do through it?

Yeah, I mean that six months off social media was um a shift because again, I'm

not distracted like I want to be. Yeah, I'm playing solitire and

you know, mind sweeper. Like I just I was just extremely bored. And there's something about that boredness that

makes you more introspective. It makes you read books and have conversations with people. You're in

community and you can't scroll on your phone. And so you got to actually be like, "Hey,

how are you?" You know what I'm saying? And in that space, the Lord just showed me a lot of places at my heart that he

wanted to deal with. Whether that was unforgiveness, whether that was pride, whether that was disrespect and dishonor of my husband in some areas. And so it

was like he was shifting me to a different degree of just dependence. And

I was praying about the album and that's what came to my heart is to write an album called Blameless. Um, which is I'm

not blameless at all. And so the album is the exploration of that idea, but I'm

also anchored in the hope that Jude 1:24 says to him who is able to keep us from

stumbling and to present us blameless. And so that helps me know like even if

I'm not perfect, uh, one day I will be. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's awesome. And

again, I think all of these things have been tying together in this conversation because it's that it's that paradox.

It's that you are able to be vulnerable and you're able to be honest and explore

the sides of you that need to grow while then also embracing the profound truth that God still chooses to present

you as blameless despite all of those things. Yeah. And that's that's what our world needs, right? Like I was just saying to so many

of these students yesterday, it's like what your heart desires, even if you don't understand it or realize, is that

you want to be fully human and yet fully loved at the same time. You want to be known for all of the flaws that you have

because what our world says is no, no, hide those things to be loved. Yeah. I got to hide them so people will accept

me. And only Jesus can know us fully and love us fully at the same time.

And that is the most mysterious, beautiful, profound paradox in all of human history. And I think that's what you so

beautifully capture here. Yeah. It's the gospel, ain't it?

It's the gospel. It is. It is. And we we probably could have saved some time and just uh just preached the gospel right here.

I think we did in in a bunch of different ways. Yeah. Well, Jackie, thank you so much.

Like you your your work and your voice has profoundly impacted me and so many

um I love talking to Preston as well. You guys are a power couple and God is using you and you're raising kids and

you're in the middle of all of it. H how can I be praying for you? How can those who listen to this be praying for you in

this next season? Yeah. Um, just wisdom. I just always need

wisdom and clarity on what to do, what not to do. Simple stuff like what school

you want the kids to go to, you know, stuff like that. But I also think uh I' I've really been stuck on the idea of

endurance. Um and just pressing towards the mark cuz I mean when you got inner

weakness, when you got outward opposition, when you got just it's costly to

try to love Jesus. You know what I'm saying? So I just I don't want to it's not even that I want to tap out. It's I

don't want to let my foot off the gas. Yep. So yeah. Awesome. Wisdom and perseverance. I feel like I could use a dose of that

as well. So, let me just pray for you. Jackie, thank you. Jesus, I pray that you would you would just be with Jackie and and her husband and her family. It's

it's a lot to manage, Lord. And I'm sure every day just I'm sure she lays in bed

exhausted with all that is on her plate. And Jesus, first I just want I pray that she would right now experience just

another level of your profound and sincere love for her, Lord. that it is

unearned, that it cannot be earned, it will never change. That she would have even more intimacy with you in the days

ahead. That success for her would be love, joy, and kindness, and goodness,

and gentleness, and faithfulness, self-control. All of these things, these would be her her definition of su

success in the days to come. And I pray for strength and wisdom as a as a wife,

as a as a mother, as an artist, as a speaker, as a as a poet. all of these

things you would infuse her with Solomonike wisdom that is worth more than than any material thing we could

ever possibly gain. Give her wisdom and then give her perseverance to to not grow weary and doing good. It is a hard

race and there is a cost to preaching the truth. There is a cost to standing up and outside a culture. Pray that you

protect her and her family against the schemes of the enemy. And I just pray that for incredible fruitful days ahead

for her and her whole family in the name of Jesus. Amen. Amen. Awesome, Jackie. Appreciate you.

Uh, I'm going to hit end record here and just make sure your file gets uploaded before you jump off. No problem.

But thank you so much. Really appreciate this. Thanks for watching Provoke and Inspire. If you enjoyed this content, could you

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Stay involved. Also, provokeinsinspireodcast.com for everything else. That's it. Peace.