Jon McCray (Whaddoyoumeme) | Christian Education and YouTube Evangelism

You're listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. What's up, guys? This is Ben from Provoke and Inspire, and I am very excited about the interview that I got to do today. I have been a fan of this guy for a long time. His name is John McCrae.

He started a very popular YouTube channel, What Do You Meme? And the whole thing is about interacting with culture and giving the Jesus perspective. It's apologetic. It's evangelistic. It's really, really great.

He has more than 400,000 subscribers, and I really think he's someone who's doing cutting edge work in the intersection of spirituality and culture and relevantly communicating Jesus to people outside of the church. Him and I had a wide ranging conversation from Christian education to content online to how to speak to people today, the changes in the mindset of secular culture, and how to boldly and relevantly proclaim Jesus. It was an amazing conversation. John is a great guy, and I know you're gonna love this episode from beginning to end. We are so committed to bringing you high quality content and amazing interviews, and the only thing we really ever ask in return is that you would consider sharing this with other people.

The more you share it, the more people listen, the better guests we can get, the higher quality production we can do, and I really believe in this vision. And I know many of you have reached out to me and let me know how this podcast has helped you in your faith journey. So consider sharing this with someone and allow this community to grow. As always, it's important to remember that this podcast is part of a missions organization called Steiger. We are in over 200 cities around the world, and we are dedicated to reaching people who are not coming to the church looking for answers.

There is a role for you to play in this mission in a myriad of ways. So go to steiger.org, steiger,.0rg, to find out how. Alright. That's enough of me. Let's get to the conversation with YouTuber John McCrae as we talk about culture, education, Christianity, evangelism, and a whole other host of topics.

I hope you love it as much as I did. We're going right now. Is that cool? Cool. Yeah.

It works for me, man. Cool. So, anyway, the homeschooling thing so my kids, I've got, eight, six, and three. I've got a ten, six, and three, by the way. So we're right there.

K. So you also are exhausted all the time. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

Isn't it funny how it's one of those things that you don't think you have to think about, and then all of a sudden it becomes relevant, and then you have to make that decision for your own life and family. And I don't know. When I get up in churches or speak, I don't know if there's anything that people are more passionate about, it feels like, in the church right now than Christian education. I was speaking for a small group at a church one time, and someone got up and asked me, are you gonna send your kids to public schools? And, you know, in the end of the day, I believe we're supposed to make our kids prepared, not safe.

But right? Like, I think we want our kids to be ready. Yeah. Like I was saying in the beginning, like, with the whole dichotomized reality of, I don't wanna crow my kids up in a bubble only to then expose them to a world that's gonna eat them alive. Yeah.

But, man, my six year old is not a missionary. She should be learning about math, man, and science. And I don't need my six year old having to contend with being educated on liberal ideas of gender. And so we've been blessed to have people in our lives that have helped us to allow us to send our kids to a private Christian school. Nothing we could have done on our own as missionaries.

I just felt like it's either gonna be homeschooling, which neither of us had any skill or frankly desire to do, or something where they're not having to contend with those indoctrinations. And so that's the route that we've gone so far. How do you feel about it? Well, so what's interesting is my so my oldest, he's 10 now, like I said. But when he was seven, like, about seven, second grade, or is it third grade?

Third grade is when his, so his best friend at school told him he was an atheist and would say that he doesn't believe seven year old. His seven year old. Told him he was an atheist. And then yeah. I know, which is crazy.

Right? And then later, come to find out that, Kidd's dad is transitioning. He's transitioning into, you know, or going through his process too. So I have I had to have these conversations with him really early. You know what I mean?

And so, like but I what I thought was good about it is because I was able to talk with him, like, kind of go through, like, some early apologetic type stuff a little bit. You know? Like, and also helping him to engage, you know, with with these different, you know, people with different beliefs. So having him ask his friend questions like, why do you believe that God doesn't exist? You know what I mean?

And he just, like, yeah. He just said that the universe should because at first I asked him, like, where do you think the universe came from? You know what I mean? Just to see what is to get that kid to start thinking a little bit. You know?

And he said, oh, he just thought it just popped into existence or whatever. And so then we started going through. So I said, even if for no other reason than for me to show him the relevance of using apologetics and understanding theology and these sorts of things in culture, it's still good. You see? And so my view is that, like, I and and I'm with you.

Here's where I I I would say, I think this depends on the parent and what they think is best for the kids. Right. But I think, for me, like, the way I think about it is, like, I want my kids to be able to be prepared, like you said, but you also don't want them to be indoctrinated in that in that sense too. But I think this is why it's so important for us to just spend so much time talking to our kids as much as we can, and it's it's hard. You have three kids just like me.

It's hard. You know what I mean? Especially with everything else. But spending time with the kids, trying to get them to learn how to think well through these things, then they can be okay. You know?

So so my thinking is and and yeah. So I I agree with you. But for me, I'd I'd rather keep them probably when they're early or when they're younger. I'm with you. Probably, it's better for them not to be around these sorts of things.

You know? But if they're gonna be exposed to it anyway, we may as well help them be the salt and light in the world. You know? Yeah. Yeah.

It's a it's a challenge, man. People are so passionate about this. And, of course, given my upbringing and my context Yeah. My whole world has been trying to live like Jesus outside of the church, trying to represent him in a clear and relevant way. And so the last thing I wanna do is raise sheltered kids.

It's just Yeah. It's hard, man. You know? It's like It is. So much to deal with as it is.

And Yeah. You know, and like you said, every kid is is different. Every context is different. I would never, like, prescribe one thing. Like, this is the only right way.

Yeah. But I've just yeah. I think for us, I just have felt blessed that that our kids can you know, they're still kids, man. And and, like, these Yeah. A lot of the a lot of the families that went to this school, some of them went there because of COVID.

They didn't want the restrictions. So you're still you're still getting a lot of different world views even though it's technically a Christian school. Yeah. But you're right, man. I I I wrestle with that.

I I want my kids to ask all the hard questions. I want them to be able to doubt. I think of the Tim Keller quote. Someone without doubts is like a body without antibodies. Right?

You have no immunity. So how can I, like you said, make it very okay for my kids as doubts inevitably emerge, whether it's peer pressure or just their own curious minds? How can I be like, yeah, let's talk about it? It's cool to feel this way, and let's get to the bottom of some good answers to these tough questions. So Yeah.

And and one quick thing on that too is my oldest is a lot different than my middle. You know what I mean? He was different than my youngest. And so, like, my oldest is a little bit more he's a rule follower by nature. He knows rules.

You know what I mean? He's a good he's responsible. Yeah. But my middle one will always push it if he can. If he can get away with something, he'll do it.

So I think even in that kind of context, it's like it's better for my my older one, I trust a lot more, you know, of carrying these things than I do my younger one because he's you know what I mean? He's more impressionable. He likes to follow around, and he likes to mess with people. And, you know so, anyway so those are the type of things to take in consideration as well, which is why I don't think there's a one size fits all for this. Yeah.

No. You know, I do think another element to this conversation is just the role of friends. You know, like, how Yeah. Can you curate their friends? How involved can you be?

I think in my own childhood, and I do feel like looking back, my parents probably influenced that a little bit more than I maybe consciously recognized. But that's another part of it. Right? Like, man, friends are so crucial. And I guess if that's the pool of people that they're potentially drawing from, that is a scary thought too depending on the context.

100%. Completely agree. Yeah. Oh, it's funny because my firstborn is a firstborn role follower. Yeah.

Yeah. But doesn't, at this point, care very deeply about deep things. Like, he's just sports. He's just, oh, I just wanna chuck things and run and but then my middle is asking the questions. Like, I mean, I'm sitting there in the car, and I've said this on this podcast before, but she's like she's five at the time.

She's like, dad, if God let Satan fall, like, then why wouldn't that just happen again in heaven? And I'm like Request. Yeah. Yeah. See.

I'm like, that is one of the hardest, craziest, apologetic theological questions you could ever come up with. So she's my middle she's my creative, but also a little challenging. Not gonna lie. Yeah. So you're right.

They don't come as one thing, and that makes this, parenting thing all the more fun. Yeah. Absolutely, man. Yep. So it's relevant because, obviously, your world is cultural apologetics.

It's trying to interpret and understand the world at large through a Jesus lens. You have your YouTube channel that's really amazing. I draw on it all the time, for insight and wisdom and inspiration, the whole what do you meme YouTube channel. So if you haven't heard of that, check it out. I'll put links everywhere, and go check that out and subscribe.

But what got you what got you going down this path? Have you always been curious? What was your faith story? How did you become the powerful cultural apologist that you are today? Man, honestly, it's not as linear as a lot of people's stories.

I'll kinda give you a super condensed version. So I wasn't raised in a church going home or nothing like that. We didn't really talk about God or anything hardly ever. So when I first I'm trying not to skip over too much, I guess. But when I first got to college is when I really started wrestling with the idea of God a lot more.

And I wanted to take a class on the world religions, but the world religion classes were all taken. And so I took, they said, well, you can take philosophy or religion. And at this point, I had no idea what philosophy was. Like, I was like, I have no idea what it is, but I was like, I'll give it a shot. And I started taking it, and that's when I first came across a lot of arguments for god's existence.

And the Kalam Cosmo logical argument is the one that really solidified my belief in god's existence. Because prior to that, I was kind of agnostic a lot more. Like, there was a lot of times when I believed a lot, and we were introduced to a church when we were 15, me and my twin brother, that was just like, it was really kind of like a cult. And so, like, that was weird. And so after that, we're kind of, like, I believe a lot, but then some days, I'm just like, man, we're just all alone in this universe.

There's nothing coming to help us or save us. You know? And so, eventually, though, the in college is when I came across a lot of the arguments, and that made me, really confident that god existed. And then, I came across evidence for the resurrection later because I was going to different churches trying to just kind of get all these different views of God and stuff. And I was studying a little bit before I went to these different churches.

So I studied, like, Scientology a little bit before I went there, the Mormon church or Jehovah Witness or whatever. And then, eventually, came across the arg or the arguments for the resurrection, found it really compelling. And, yeah. So that's when I first became a Christian. And it was kind of like it was just like, I guess when it came to the belief in God, I remember having this moment where I was like, I believe in god now, and it just kinda hit me because it was weird.

Then when when it came to Christianity, I really kinda wrestled with that on and off for, really, honestly, a couple years, kind of just, like, believing it and then challenging my beliefs. You know what I mean? By talking with people about it and that sort of thing. Come to about, gosh, I wanna say about ten years ago now, is when I lost my I mean, I lost my hearing in my twenties, just randomly. Yeah.

My hearing, I lost did you ever see that video on my channel or no? I didn't. I didn't even know that, man. That's crazy. Yeah.

So yeah. It's an old video, but yeah. So I lost my hearing, just kind of randomly, and the doctors still is they have no idea, like, what caused it. They said there's so much about hearing loss we still don't know. So they didn't know.

So I lost almost all my hearing. I went to 10% left in this ear and, 15% in this ear, with my hearing left. Yeah. And I lost all of the highs and mids. So I can't hear really, like, consonants and and those sorts of things, but I could hear vowels and that's it.

But just really how it communicates. Scary. Yeah. Yeah. But when I went to go get my hearing checked, they said that my hearing loss was so significant that I couldn't get hearing aids, at that point too.

Because I was trying to wait it out too, by the way. I was like, I'm not getting hearing aids. I'm at least 40. I remember thinking that. I was like, no way.

Because I'm bald. I don't have a lot of hair. So so, I had to get a cochlear implant surgery. I'm not sure if you've heard of those. Yeah.

So it's just like a internal component that helps you hear, and then there's an external component that attaches to it through a magnet. So I had that, but it's not like a contact lens. So you can't just put it in and not put it on and then you can hear. You have to relearn how to hear all over again. So it's a long process, and it's really hard too.

It's weird and draining because you have to focus really hard to try to learn how to hear sounds again, and you just can't recognize the noises. It's really hard to explain. So anyways, it took me about a year over a year before I could start hearing again. And in that time, I was, in Facebook chat rooms a lot debating atheists and stuff like that. And that's what kind of it reignited that passion I had for, like, philosophy and apologetics and stuff.

And then there was a guy in there. Sorry. I'm taking a long time. I'm almost done. Oh, no.

You're good, man. You're good. This is fascinating. Go on. No rush.

So there was a guy that was in one of the groups because I created a group for apologists to go debate a lot. And there was a guy in one of those debate groups from Australia, and he's like, you should start a YouTube channel. And at that time, I didn't really watch that much YouTube because YouTube wasn't as big as it is now. And I was like, well, I was like, and he's like, I'm gonna send you a camera. I'll just give it a shot.

And so he bought me a camera, sent me the camera gear, gave it a shot. Yeah. And then here I am. So It's crazy to think about life that way. Right?

Like, just Yeah. So many things in your life are just one little decision here, one little decision there, taking that risk or responding to that invitation. Yeah. And that's so scary with the the hearing loss. I don't know if you saw the movie, the sound of metal.

People always tell me about that one, but I've never watched it. But I always hear about it. You know? I imagine it would hit you in a way that I couldn't possibly relate to. I mean, it's it's about this drummer, and he just randomly loses his hearing and goes through the whole cochlear implant thing and and and through this process of denial.

And it's it's really intense. It's really intense. Yeah. As a musician and as a someone who really has no discernible skills outside of speaking Yeah. Yeah.

Like, I am the least practical human being you'll ever meet. I got nothing else to offer. That's a scary, scary thought, man. I'm glad to hear that you are where you're at now today. So I appreciate that, man.

Because I was doing music too before that and stuff, and, it's the same sort of thing. That's why people always tell me. They're like, oh, it sounds like that movie. You know? But, the way I think about it too is, honestly, I think I mean, I believe God obviously allows everything for a reason.

You know? And so I think in that, I mean, if I didn't lose my hearing, I would have been I was wowed and out and everything anyway too. You know what I mean? You're really wowed and promiscuous and all these things. So, like, god allowed that to slow me down, so recenter me so that way I can, you know, do this channel or whatever else, you know, he wants to use me with.

So Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't make it easy, though. Right? No.

No. Nope. But yeah. Okay. So you have you have this channel, and how did you get it to the point that it is?

I mean, it's like a very successful channel by I don't know what the stats would be, but to get to a point that you're at is is very rare. Just love to hear more about that, and then I obviously can talk about some of the things that you engage with. Yeah. Of course. So, initially, when I started it so as I said earlier a little bit, I I started, a apologetics group, you know, on Facebook where I try to find all of the best apologists I could find and then bring them all into a private group so that way they could help each other when and then we can go debate, like, atheist and stuff or whatever, but everybody can get help and answers there.

And so through that, I I met, so many apologists and so many people. You know what I mean? And a lot of them even like Cameron Vertuzzi from Capturing Christianity. I knew him way before he started his channel and Adam Coleman from, TrueID. And a lot of them, like, most of them, Tim McGrew, even a lot of the philosophers and William and Craig.

You know, I knew a lot of them earlier, because of that. So that initially gave me a little bit of a boost. Like, I had about a 100 subscribers right when I started right off the bat. You know? So that that helped.

Then I met my friend David Wood, who's a good friend of mine. He helped. He wanted to have me do a project with him, and so he kinda recruited me for that. And he helped push myself a little bit to help me get a little bit more of a boost of another thousand subs. And then since then, man, it's just, you know, God, hard work.

You know what I mean? You just gotta work hard. You gotta love what you do. Because if you don't love it, it's just too hard to keep up on YouTube because you won't make money for a long time. I wasn't even thinking I'd ever make money from YouTube.

You know? But you if you're trying to do it for, like, money and those sorts of things, you just find something else because this has how the blood, sweat, and tears over the years, man. You know? So you really gotta be passionate. And and then God, obviously, you know, is gonna be the one that's gonna help grow it as well too.

So Yeah. Yeah. It's like the myth of the overnight success. Right? They never see the Yeah.

The blood, sweat, and tears and the commitment to it. So the channel centers often around or most often around events and culture and and how to understand those from a Jesus perspective. You you not only analyze these stories so well, but you tie it into a proper way to think about it and then a proper way to respond to it from a Jesus following perspective. I'd be curious just when you kind of were coming up in all this, it was sort of the maybe the new atheist. Was it kind of around that time, it feels like.

Right? So what in your mind has changed from those days where it feels like debating was kind of the big thing and it was the very sort of caustic atheist and then the kind of counterbalance came with the the Christian voices, the William Lane Craig's and and others like him. How have you seen things change in culture, and how is this a unique challenge for Christians in this moment compared to maybe when you started? Yeah. That's that's a good question.

The way I think about it is what I'm sure how you kind of think about it too is, we have to be good missionaries. You know what I mean? Just like, because Jesus could've I mean, you know, he could've just dropped the Bible from heaven on a string, but instead he came to meet us where we were at, you know, eye to eye. And so I think that all the time is like, we have to be able to understand the culture. What are the things that they their customs and traditions, that sort of thing.

And also to what language they speak, you know? And so at the time when I first started my channel, it was all atheist stuff for probably the first year, you know, responding to a lot of atheist stuff and that sort of thing. But then I started kind of thinking, like, most people aren't atheist. Like, you know, most people are probably, like, spiritual or, you know, they they're friendly to spirituality in some sense. And so because of that, I'm like, god, I just wanna be used wherever a need is.

You know? And so, I did enjoy the atheist stuff too. You know? And, I thought I I felt like I had something to contribute to it too, you know, like, the angle and the way I kinda went about it. But I also thought that there was a larger need for people to understand the gospel, as well too.

And and so I I kinda drifted away from that and try to go more towards culture and then trying to find different ways to give culture the gospel. So I think that, to answer your question, because there was that time when the new atheists were really popular, but I started seeing them kind of lose a lot of kind of traction. And culture kinda didn't really like them, I don't think either, because they came off as church too. You know what I mean? And so because of that, I was like, well, it doesn't seem like they're having this much of a pool.

This momentum's gonna die down too because there's nowhere else for them to really go. You're just saying God does not exist, but you're not replacing it with anything meaningful for people. You see? Right. And so because of that too, I was like, okay.

They're not gonna be around forever. And so because of that and so after kind of thinking about that and stuff too and they really wanna give people the gospel, I I kinda pivoted it over towards culture because that's what I think need is now. It's kind of like the broad pop culture, that sort of place. But, who knows when things will change in the future as well too? I don't know now.

But that's where I think culture is a lot different today than it was six years ago or whenever. Yeah. No. I I think the whole recognition that we are in a in a time, I think, in culture where we're very spiritually open, I think people are skeptical of institutional religion. That's what we often say.

And yet at the same time, they're willing to discuss spiritual things. And I think when we approach people with that understanding that every heart has a cry, you know, I love that idea that inside of everyone, there is this spiritual longing. They wanna connect to something transcendent, and the sort of overly straw man, overly caustic new atheist, it maybe had a moment where people found that interesting, and it was very inflammatory. But truthfully, it left them with sort of an empty nihilism. And like you said, like, a you're gonna take away this sort of basis for meaning and hope and purpose, and you're gonna replace it with absolutely nothing, and I'm supposed to be okay with that.

You're right. So, no, I I totally agree with you. I think having a a recognition that people are spiritually hungry and then finding ways to engage them in those places, I think, is a crucial approach to to culture today. Yeah. But have you found that there are new challenges with that?

Maybe there's such an openness that there is an unwillingness to commit or something. It's like, sure. Yeah. Everything's cool. What kind of new challenges do you think the time that we're living in presents?

Even if the militant atheism had a unique there was a unique way to approach them. Right? But how do you approach someone who just says, yeah. Everything's cool? Yeah.

That that's a great question. So there's different ways to answer that question. I guess one way to kinda think about it is, I think Jordan Peterson has really kind of shifted the cultural kind of consciousness when it comes to Christianity and religion in general. Because I think with with him, the way he's kind of open people's mind up to the idea of Christianity, even from, like, Joe Rogan. I mean, when Jordan Peterson came on the scene, it was a lot different than how it is now.

And a lot of people like Andrew Tates and all them started sounding more and more like Peterson when it comes to, like, at least the pragmatism that's behind, you know, that Christianity you can utilize Christianity for. And so because of that, there's a new openness there. But there's a catch that comes with it is when it comes to the actual gospel message, those people don't go there. So, like, Jordan Peterson, Andrew Tates, or, you know, even though Andrew Tates is Muslim now. But, like, a lot of those, Joe Rogan, they're like, yeah, Christianity is good, Elon Musk.

But when it comes to the gospel message so it's like, in my mind, the challenge there is to say, it's not just good for you. It's not just subjectively true for you, but it's also objectively true. It's true. And so that's the place where I'm trying to move people a lot of the time to say like, yes, it's good for you. And, yes, it solves these problems in your life, but it's not just that.

It also solves the spiritual problem in your life, and it's objectively true for everybody. You know? So that's that's one kind of way to think about it, where you see these unique challenges. Outside of that, I'd say, when it comes to individuals, whenever I'm talking to people, I'm like, a personality, type junkie to some degree. Not really, but but, I mean, I I'm always looking in the personality type stuff because it really does help in evangelism because you can start pinpointing where people tend to get their identity and value and meaning and purpose from, what type of things drive those things, how do they receive information, how do they reject information.

And so because of that, I I tend to personalize my approach to whoever I'm talking to when I'm doing evangelism because I try to understand the world through their lens, their individual lens. So that way, I can understand where their obstacles are, what's in their way, and then how I can get them to understand the gospel message fully. Yeah. And I think so much of that is achieved just in the context of having genuine relationships outside of the church. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. I think so much of our problem so much of my problem, frankly, is I'm busy, I'm cloistered, and and I'm not very good at listening. Yeah. Yeah.

And I feel like how much of our problems as followers of Jesus would be solved by maintaining and then building genuine authentic relationships outside of the church, becoming Yeah. Great at asking good questions, as you said, because questions are what unlocks their personality types or the things that they care about, their passions. You know? You ask someone, what keeps you up at night? Or what would you change about the world if you could?

Or what are your greatest passions or fears? Yeah. You ask those kinds of questions and really listen, they're gonna start telling you what's going on, and and you're gonna be able to use that to have a spiritual conversation. Yeah. No.

And and what's so important about that, I think, is whenever you start having conversations with people about God, it forces you to try to think deeper about your faith and even when it comes to the apologetics, ideology, or whatever. And with that, you grow closer in your relationship with God as well. You know? So it doesn't just even work just for these other people, but it also helps you develop and grow your faith more. Because I think sometimes when I think about my channel, I'm like, if it wasn't for my channel, you know what I mean, how much would I be spending so much time thinking about this stuff?

You know what I mean? And so it's like, that's why I see it as a blessing because it really did help me really learn to internalize the gospel message and and study so long for so many years on theology and stuff so I could truly understand it deeply, I feel like. You know what I mean? And so with that, it's like that that's the benefit too of talking with people. And we tend to always wanna segregate, you know.

It's like we're over here, the good Christian people, and then you have the evil crazy secular world. You know? That's how they tend to kinda think about it and act as if they're just evil and you shouldn't have anything to do with them. But, really, we need to be that salt and that light in the world rather than just trying to stay in our own isolated bubbles and not making the cycles. You know?

We should be making the cycles. So Yeah. Yeah. And I I love what you're saying about how you have orchestrated your life in such a way that almost compels you to become a person of depth, and Yeah. How that selfishly really grows and sustains your faith as you're attempting to create, you know, these opportunities for people to discover the truth.

I one of the things we do in our mission that I love, is we will go on the streets and do street interviews and ask people deep questions. And I was just texting with my videographer, and we were we hadn't we haven't done it for a while. I'm up here in Minnesota, so we got about six months before we all just go underground. Yeah. The weather kicks in.

But, I was just saying to him, like, speaking of personalities, my personality is like, man, give me a thousand people on the stage, happy. But one on one, like, I'm awkward. I'm, like, socially I'm like one of those introvert extrovert mixes. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, it gives me crazy anxiety, but it is so profound and rewarding. I was just texting. I was like, man, we gotta do the street interview stuff again. We gotta get out there because there is there is something about taking that risk and putting yourself in that position to ask those hard questions. Not only does God move, not only does the holy spirit move in those moments, but, man, you become really adept at discerning the underlying questions.

Right? If if Yeah. And and you get good at connecting those responses to deeper apologetic themes. So if someone you know, they say they're passionate about art, you ask them, why do we do art? Like, what does that say about us as human beings that unlike animals or any other living creature, we will devote ourselves to making something aesthetically pleasing?

Yeah. Like, does that really speak of just a random purposeless, designless universe, or does that speak to a god who himself is an artist and made us to do that? So I love that. Oh, yeah. And, you know, it's interesting about what you said is, I'm the opposite kind of like you because I'm I'm good one on one with people specifically, But whenever there's a camera in front of my face, whenever there's a crowd, I feel really uncomfortable every time.

You know? And so but it's funny because, like, how God is using you in those ways. You know what I mean? Where it's like it reminds me of Paul. You know what I mean?

Where it's just like, yeah. You're weaker so he can be stronger. Because in those ways where you feel uncomfortable talking to people one on one, the holy spirit moves more. Yeah. Feel like it's the same sort of thing too whenever, you know, talking to people in group settings and stuff.

You know? Despite how super uncomfortable it makes me. Right. You know what I mean? So I think that's that's funny.

It's funny how God will will put you into a position where you can't but help give him the credit. Right? Because you're like, I know I know who I am. You know? But then then you cheat every once in a while.

Like, I this videographer that I'm talking about, he is like one of those weird kinda, like, Labrador kind of guys. He can just he's friendly with everyone. He can Right. He's an icebreaker. No self any he just has no none of that self kind of anxiety about meeting other people and opening conversations, and so I just partner with him.

Yeah. I just say, alright. We got roles here. You break the ice, and I'll come in I'll come in with the deep parts of the conversation. So, you know, I do think God has mercy for kinda giving us what we need to be able to take those steps too.

That's right, man. Yeah. It's the the body. So yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. So one question I I often have there's there's so many angles I I could go in, but one is, so you are always digging into cultural issues, having to study them, having to get this right because you're putting this out there, and you you obviously are very cautious of saying things quickly, but also correctly and also from a Jesus perspective. Yeah. I I just was thinking about the whole Olympic thing and, you know, you have the opening ceremony, and then you got the boxer. And how do we handle all this as followers of Jesus?

Obviously, you have a unique job where you are always trying to engage with culture. What is the line between being informed, being aware, forming opinions on things without also just drowning in this sea of constant controversy, constant information? I know it's it's a unique question to ask you because it's your job. Yeah. How do you find that balance of not just becoming overwhelmed by keeping up with the twenty second news cycle that we live in today?

That's that's a great question, and it is like sometimes it gets a little too much. Like, you know, so what I personally do is I I I take a step back often. You know? And it's really hard to keep those boundaries, though. But it's like, when I noticed we're starting to get to me, especially, like, Twitter, there's no place, like, nastier than Twitter on the Internet where it's like, it would just like, there's so much negativity, so much controversy, so many crazy things where it's like, man, the world, you just start getting super pessimistic and stuff.

But I try to kinda watch that, because one, it's not good for my marriage. You know? Because I'll carry that home, you know, and, try to create better boundaries with trying not to get too involved in it to some degree too. So, I think that people should be to be kind of discerning, understand your self well enough to know, like, when it's gonna be too much, when you need to take a step back, that sort of thing. But, also, I guess you need to know your limits.

It's like, if I was a person who had a past of being addicted to drugs or something like that, I'm not gonna be studying drug stuff. You know what I mean? All the time because, you know, so it's like you will kinda wanna understand yourself well enough to kind of know where your limits are, I think. Yeah. Does that answer your question?

Is that what you're gonna get better? No. Totally. And and I think part of what I'm wrestling with because I engage in some of the spaces that you do, and part of what I'm also wrestling with is, well, it's connected to something you said earlier. You you said that Jesus or God didn't just drop a Bible into culture.

He engaged with people. And Yeah. There would be some people in in the Christian world who would say, well, you don't need to know all these things, and you don't need to keep up on all these things, and you don't need you just need to preach the gospel. You know? We have the Bible, and that's enough, and we need to not bother ourselves with all of this.

You know, you have extremes. Yeah. And I don't I don't agree with that. I I see, you know, Paul to the Athenians. I see That's right.

Jesus being incredibly relevant. How do you balance cultural awareness with perennial truths? Maybe that's the most compact way to ask that question. Yeah. No.

That's a great question. So are are you speaking more about the approach, or are you speaking In your own in your own life as a potential to be distracted, but maybe as a way to engage with people? Like, how much of it is a distraction, or how much of it is like, no. If I'm gonna speak to these people in these times, I gotta know the things they're wrestling with and dealing with. Yeah.

I mean, that that's essentially it. It's like, for me, I think, like and keep in mind too, like, I've been a Christian for a long time too, and, I understand what I believe, you know, through from the intellectual perspective. I've been through the emotional up and downs. Like so when you go through all that and have that experience, this is where doubts are good in some ways because there's a sunny side to doubt, which is where it can like, how you kind of said earlier, it can give you those antibodies. You know what I mean?

So that way, you can be able to withstand a lot of stuff. Because a lot of people worry if they go engage with culture, they're gonna end up like culture or something like that. You know? Right. But I don't think that that necessarily follows for everyone.

But I I also say this, because one thing I learned in life because there's a lot of approaches that I don't like. Like, for example, when people are holding up signs or billboards, like turn or burn billboards. You know? A lot of these approaches I don't like, but, I used to be very critical about a lot of these different approaches. But what I found is I kept meeting people who would have would, God would reach them through these things.

So, like, even my assistant, she I if I'm remembering correctly, I I can't remember if this is how she converted or if this what kinda snapped her in the gear, but she saw a billboard sign. You know? So I said, well, if God could use a billboard sign, then who am I to say that, like, this is the wrong way to approach? Right. And so because of that, I I now I see all these different approaches.

You know? There's some obviously that are gonna reach some people and have more collateral damage than others. You know? Yeah. But, I hold them pretty much open because I know God will still use these different approaches.

So, yeah. So that's the way I kinda think about it. Like, I don't I don't think that it's wrong to engage with culture. Like, I guess you kind of just balance out, but, it's like you have to keep you have to be able to try to be self aware and understand what's going on because I'm constantly always doing that. Like, you know, let this not be about my ego and my glory.

Let this be about you and your glory. You know what I mean? And there's con those things that you have, noticing those deficiencies, keep praying about those and keep working on those and try to, again, do a lot of self talk where you just say, like, you know, why am I getting defensive? I'm getting defensive because I'm trying to protect my ego. Am I trying to protect my ego, or is this about, you know, illuminating the gospel message?

Okay. Well, it's about, you know, eliminating gospel message so I can let my ego go. So a lot of those sorts of things. Not sure if that answer your question. Yeah.

No. It's only something. Yeah. So, obviously, you have harnessed the power of the Internet very effectively, and I think we as followers of Jesus need to be there. But where could we go farther?

How do you feel like Christians should be engaging on YouTube, on social media, and all of these places? And what would you say are the limits or the the traps or the pitfalls? Like, is there a place the Internet can't go? Are there needs it can't meet? How do you see it as just part of the the larger mission of God?

Because, obviously, we all are are just one part of what God is doing. Sure. How do you see that? Yeah. I mean, similar to kinda how you said, I think God has certain people in different places doing different things, and it's beautiful to see.

Because when I see pastors a lot of the time, I'm like, there's no way I could do what they do. Like, thank God that he made people that are suited for that job. Right? And at the same time, pastors will say that to me. You know, they're like, oh, I can't believe that.

There's no way I could do what you do. You know? And so it's like, it's not I think we need Christians everywhere putting in this work. You need the people in the streets. You need the people in the ghettos.

You need the people in the suburbs. You need the people everywhere in these different ways. You know what I mean? So when it comes to the Internet, I mean, honestly, I think it's really relative to what their mission is and where God can use them without them falling into the trap of the world. You know?

So for example, I mean, if I I mean, I would I mean, I don't I wouldn't say I wouldn't do this, but I have no desire to do it. But say I went to go evangelize at a gay strip club. Now because I'm not attracted to men at all, it's not a temptation point for me. Right. And therefore, if I'm evangelizing to those people, that's fine.

You know? But if it was, like, you know, some female strip club, me being heterosexual Right. And it's like, that would be a different issue. Idea. Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. And so and it's like the same thing with an alcoholic going to a bar or whatever. And it's the same sort of thing on the Internet. If there's these places where you find yourself feeling more, radicalized for you know, say it's a political thing, you know, feeling more radicalized towards these politics than I am the gospel message.

That's a problem. Maybe you should step back a little bit or at least reevaluate, you know, and see if God wants to use you in some other chat room. You know what I mean? Or whatever. Yeah.

So I think that we can be anywhere on the Internet. But I just think that it has to be obviously wise. And, you know, wherever God wants to use you, be open to it. Even if it's somewhere you wanna be and God doesn't want you to be there, let it be his will the best that you can. You know?

Yeah. Yeah. And, again, it it sounds like comes down to calling. Right? Yeah.

And none of this is just, that sounds like a good idea. I think I'll do that. Right? It's it's birthed ultimately, like, you see in scripture out of a desire to please God, and he orders your steps. And often it looks like a master plan.

Right? But you just kinda did the next thing in front of you, and you look up and it it's a calling. And then, of course, like every calling, it has its strengths and it has its limits, and none of it can function in isolation. Right? Yeah.

Sure. The hand can't function without the leg and without the torso, and all of it's under the head that is Christ. And so Yeah. That I think is ultimately what I think our tendency can be to overvalue our role in the body and undervalue the roles of other people. Yes.

And like you said, it's like, no. The only real mission is on the streets. No. The only real mission is in churches. No.

The it's like, no. It it's it's all of it working together under one head. Yeah. That's right. A 100%.

And like you said earlier too, it's like people will say, hey. You just need to go preach the gospel. But like you said, in scripture, you know what I mean? You see that Paul, like you said, in Acts 17. You know what I mean?

Even using their Greek gods. Yes. You know what I mean? Using the name of their Greek gods and and according their the the poets and stuff like this in order to reach the people. So he's engaging even with the falsehoods of it and trying to use that in order to point people towards Christ and their need for a savior.

So I think we do the same thing. So whatever people are passionate about, you know, those sorts of things, sports, there's a need there. Try to evangelize through sports or whatever. You know? There's always these needs all over.

So Yeah. Yeah. We we just in our mission, just say, what's your scene? You know, we have a lot of art art and music in our world, and so this the word scene is often associated with that. But but scene is just a group of people gathering around a particular interest.

So Yeah. My wife is a group fitness instructor at at a at a lifetime, which is like a big chain. I don't know if you I'm not sure where where you at actually? Where are you at? Colorado.

Okay. Colorado. So, yeah, we got them out here. Yep. Yep.

Yeah. So she's a group fitness instructor, and she has this just flock of women that love her, like, that Yeah. Take all of her classes, and and and they just share their lives with her. And she's like, you know, like like, she's like their therapist slash, group fitness instructor. And so that's a scene.

That's a scene. She she doesn't have to go anywhere. She doesn't have to get on a boat and and travel to a distant country. She's in a scene where God wants to use her. And so Speaking of scene, not not too far off topic, but you know you look like Spencer Chamberlain.

You know, that is from under oath. You know who that is? I I know who that is. In fact, little fun fact, that this is normally a four person podcast that includes my dad, David Pierce, and then our European director of our mission, Luke Greenwood. He's he has a British accent.

We make fun of him the whole time. And then Chad Johnson is a is a guy that signed Under Rose. Oh, that's funny. He was an A and R guy for Tooth and Nail records. Tooth and Nail.

Yeah. Yeah. And he, I mean, we're talking I mean, Amberlynn, s cities burns, me without you, under he's Yeah. He's, like, the most famous person you've never heard of in the Christian music industry. Yeah.

Yeah. So, yeah, that's a that's a funny comparison. Yeah. That was that was the time back then. That was a different time, man.

Here's a more controversial fun fact. You ready for this one? So Yeah. You he came out with an interview about seven, eight years ago where he talked about how he he abandoned his faith because some Christians were really mean to him and, you know, like and so I wrote this article for our our blog or whatever about how, man, I'm so it's so tragic that that happened, but, man, you can't let Christians, bad Christians ruin your your view of God. Like Yeah.

We're not following men. We're following God. Yeah. And this thing blew up. Probably there was a viral thing, and and he even tweeted it and was like, I don't know who this jerk is.

I so Spencer? Yeah. Spencer. Right? Yes.

Yeah. That's right. Yeah. That's hilarious. I probably read that article too probably, I'm assuming, because I remember reading on it.

So yeah. Yeah. So, anyway, so that was you just opened up an old wound there. You're You're like, but we look alike, man. Come on, man.

We gotta be kindred spirits here. And and I wasn't even I wasn't even railing on the guy. I mean, the whole the whole tone of the article was, man, it's terrible that Christians do that. Like, that we ruin it for people, but, man, we can't be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Yeah.

He didn't he didn't like that very much. Yeah. Anyway, so where where do you where what's next, man? Where where do you see things going? How do you see the landscape of YouTube changing?

Are people more open? Are they becoming less open? Where are things heading in your mind? I noticed, at least from my perception, things have gotten a lot more tribal as as time goes on. So each year, things like I think people are getting more and more tribal, which is making it harder because where everybody's just getting isolated into more narrow echo chambers where they're not you keep thinking out of, which is why I I spend a lot of time trying to push those people out of that.

And I know that it drives people crazy and it annoys them. You know what I mean? But, I'm I lately, I've been way more worried about, some of the MAGA, the Christian MAGA movement, whatever you wanna call that. Yes. And so because of that, I spent, probably a disproportionate amount of time trying to push people out of that and trying to refocus them back on Jesus.

And I I'm assuming that this is the case too with a lot of these different groups because this is how the Internet's been growing and developing, it seems like. So, that that's probably my biggest concern at the moment. I'm not sure what this is gonna look like post election. You know what I mean? That sort of thing.

But It's gonna be an interesting few months. It is. It is, man. So that that's where I think I think people are gonna be getting more and more in their kind of, their bubbles. And so I think we have to work harder at trying to refocus because anything can be an idol, and they just keep coming.

We'll find anything to turn into an idol. So it's like, yeah, to try to keep focusing people on Christ, you know, the most the most that we can Yeah. Because it's too easy to get distracted from it. You know? So Do you feel like a thought I've been having recently, and I think what kind of brought it to the forefront was the whole Olympic opening ceremony shenanigans and, you know, was it the last supper?

Was it not the last supper? And I think it obviously was, and then they just didn't expect a reaction and then panicked because everyone freaked out. And I I think what it was a reflection of is that they live in this boldly, unapologetically anti Christian space, and they just thought nobody's gonna care. They just thought this is the world we live in, our little liberal art French world. We think this is hilarious, and everyone else think well, we'll think this is hilarious too.

But what it made me think is it feels like there was this sort of reaction against fundamental Christianity that was in the name of tolerance. Right? And it was trying to position itself as a non view. We're no. No.

No. We we don't we love everyone, and we tolerate everyone, and it's not so much about a certain view. It's just a toleration, Oh, that's a word. Of all views. Now it feels like we're entering into a phase where that mask is kinda coming down, and it feels like secularism is just saying, no.

These are objective, nonnegotiable precepts of our religion, and you have to adhere to them or you're out. Do you sense there's a bit more of a militancy to secularism than maybe in the sort of the post new atheism tolerance, everything goes phase? It feels that way to me a little bit. Bit. Yeah.

I know what you mean. I I guess the way I look at it is it it's always there. It just takes different shapes. You see what I mean? Because, like, I think it was like that new atheism, movement.

You know what I mean? And before that, you have, like, some of these liberation theologies or whatever. You there's always these different type of reactions to things that create these things. You see what I mean? And that's where it creates at least a vacuum for these the militism that's probably not even a word, but the It is.

The militism. Okay. Yeah. The militism militarism to kind of kick in there. So so that's my view.

I think it typically because even you think just the inception of the church, there's always a different cultural reason for people to kind of do that. And I think that that's probably just what comes with it. You know what I mean? To some degree. But it's an interesting time right now because you have so many of these non Christians talking positively about Christianity, but that's mainly kind of centered around some of the political stuff.

So because of that, people that are on the left are like, oh, Christianity is basically a right wing. Yes. What's the things they call it like, racism or KKK white supremacists or Yeah. Whatever, you know, they started associating Christianity with that, which creates a different kind of problem. You know what I mean?

But it's all of these kind of things working together that treat keep creating these people that are being reactive in the opposite direction, causing more reactions, and everybody's getting further apart. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I remember someone saying the expression that our culture is had has and maybe continues to experience Trump lash, right, where it's Yeah.

It's like the sort of opposite and equal reaction to an extreme figure. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I do also feel like there's in the vacuum that the new atheist created, in this unwillingness to live in this nihilism, people are starting to grasp onto other ideologies and worldviews Yeah.

To give them meaning. So if it's environmentalism or if it's a certain political movement or if it's, equality of whatever it is Yeah. We are people that need meaning. We are people that need purpose. We need Yeah.

A moral code to this idea that we can live in sort of suspended air and not have any of those things is just not true. Very few of us, as you said, are are true nihilists in the sense that I don't believe anything, and I don't believe anything matters. And so I think it's just it's scary in a sense, and it's sad in a sense because people are latching onto these things that are ultimately just going to destroy them. Yeah. But it's also an opportunity because I think people are recognizing how bankrupt it is to simply think we're just this animals in a blind mechanistic, you know, universe.

They they won't they don't wanna accept that. So they're latching on to something that can give them that sense of meaning, and I think followers of Jesus need to be in that space. Yeah. And and, on that point too, Tim Keller talked about in his book on preaching, he talked about how he looks for these pressure points. So he's like, when they hold these and I don't remember the terminology he uses, but I'm gonna refer to them as, like, axiomatic beliefs or foundational beliefs.

And there's, these things that are accepted in culture without thinking because they just feel axiomatic and, properly basic. So those beliefs, lead to these complications in their life. And so he's always says he's always looking for places to put pressure on those to show people where it conflicts with what they thought that they were getting. And then that's where you can put the pressure on that and then give them the alternative of the gospel, which is something that I'm always trying to do. You know what I mean?

So Right. So yeah. So I think that's that's the thing that we can use a lot of these things because these things aren't gonna fulfill people the way Jesus can. And so because of that, there's always gonna be these issues that come, like, from, you know, oh, I want freedom, but then freedom really kind of leads to the slavery of a different kind. You know what I mean?

So Yes. Looking for those things, putting pressure on it, and then showing them how Jesus can set them free in these different ways is, I think, very a very, good method for how we can do evangelism. Yeah. Almost having that confidence in knowing that misaligning from the truth is going to lead to chaos Yeah. Inevitably Yeah.

And finding those points of chaos as they're attempting to live out of alignment with reality because that's what they're doing. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Keller is still sad. We lost him too soon. You know, I underline books, and then there's his books, which is basically I have to find the spots I didn't underline. Yeah. Yeah.

Because there's basically nothing but a brilliant man of god. Man, he's influenced me the most, I'd probably say. Probably one of the most for sure. I've I've learned so much from him. Even the igniting me to start going deeper into the gospel and then understanding then how he turns all his sermons into the gospel is the same sort of method I try to use on my channel trying to change Yeah.

To turn all my videos into opportunity for the gospel. You know? So Yeah. Yeah, Keller is, the one guy I wanted to meet, you know, but I'll I'll see him on the next side of eternity. But Yeah.

You guys had a bond, didn't you? Somehow, someway. I don't know how we pulled it off. That's awesome. Maybe it was persistence too.

Hey. This has been this has been awesome out of respect for you. We'll just we can cut it off now. Yeah. But this is great, man.

And let let me just say, like, you you you know, you said that you're attempting to incorporate the gospel into all of your content. I I feel that, and you you've impacted my life, honestly, and I know that you're impacting thousands of people. I'm so grateful that you're part of this body. I've been inspired by your work for sure, and I know and I believe that this is just the beginning. So, you know, I'm really praying that God uses you way more powerfully in the next ten years than he has in the last.

And so keep doing what you're doing. We need you in this body, and I'm I'm really, really grateful, to be your brother in that sense. And, yeah, let's keep on doing it, man. It's cool to see what God's doing in your life. Thank you, man.

No. I appreciate that. And same for you guys, man. Like, I I just pray that God will continue to use you as he sees fit. I think you have a lot of potential too, man.

Like, and I haven't seen a ton of your stuff. I just clicked on, you know, a couple videos. But, from what I've seen, dude, I was like, I like what you're doing. I like the direction you're going. And I think you have a skill for this too, man.

So I pray that God continue continues to use you as he sees fitness area as well, man. So I just gotta deal within three kids, man. They just I got I just man. I just have no no. It's hard.

It's hard. And then, man, the YouTube thing is just, you know, we've dabbled. We've tried because we're doing so many million things, and it's just I I think it's just that persistence, like you said, to to Yeah. Keep it going, especially when you don't see the results. The persistence is the thing.

Yeah. You were uploading regularly. If you upload every week or something like that, I think it, you know, it'll fall into place. But it's tough that the consistency, it's it's tough. You know?

So Well, I'll just you got all these other things going. So live vicariously through you then for a while. So There you go. That works for me, man. Well, dude, thank you.

Appreciate it. Blessings on your family, and hopefully, we can find ways to connect, encourage each other, bless each other. I'd love to to stay engaged with you, but, I'll certainly be cheering you on from afar at the very least. I appreciate that, man. Thank you for listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast.

If you enjoy this content, consider leaving us a rating and a review on iTunes. Got questions for the guys? Send them to provokeandinspire@steiger.org. Thanks for listening.

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