Are You Willing to Learn From Enemies? | A.J. Swoboda

All right. Well, here we are. The record button is on. I got AJ Zabota. Now, I

practiced your last name incessantly. I think I said it. Okay. Was that okay?

Well, say it one more time for me. Zabota. You got it pretty close. Suabota. I think if you said it, it almost sounded

like you said zabota, but I think I think you get it right. Is it Is it Polish? It's Czech. Czechoslovakian. Yep.

Czech. And it means uh it means freedom. Okay. Okay. Right on. Right on. Yeah. Well, wow. What a what a That's uh

inspiring and probably a burden on some levels to have such a great profound last name. Freedom. I like that.

It is a It is a fun last name. And there's some funny uh if you if you've ever seen the the movie Braveheart.

Well, have I? It's practically uh in my house it was mandatory. Good. There were good parents involved

there. Um uh when William Wallace at the end, Mel Gibson when he screams freedom.

Yeah. Um, if you watch the the Russian version, he he screams my last name. So,

it it's he screams swaba. So, it's I have had that used in many introductions

at speaking events. I bet he has. And that I'm sure inspired you in a unique way. I was going to make a Braveheart joke and I'm I'm I take

risks on jokes often at the beginning of podcasts and rarely do they work, but in this case, I think it may have. So, I'll

take more courage in the future. But hey, thank you so much for doing this. Uh, as I said before we started recording, I have loved your stuff. It's

always so insightful, inspiring, relatable, so relevant to our current culture. And so I would love to talk

about anything and everything depending on where this goes. But your latest book, A Teachable Spirit, is so profound

for times like this. Um, but rather than putting words in your m mouth, why did you feel inspired

to write this book? Yeah. Yeah. I mean I mean every um every book

write any anything that a writer p pens uh there's usually a a the a backstory

to it you know the the the the the personal side to it and I think for me um one of the main reasons that I

wrote this book was that Christians in the 21st century as as the

world gets more and more complicated by more and more complicated I mean um

you know digital technologies are changing the way people learn. Chat GPT and AI technologies are literally going

to decimate whole um workforces. Um as

you know the the ways in which people learn changes things things are

complicating a great deal um the way humans uh are engaging in their world.

Yeah. And I I have um sort of noticed a trend uh among some Christians of

feeling the need to kind of pull away from the world and go kind of hide their

head in the sand or something like that. And I'm not I'm not I think I wrote this book u because I'm not convinced that's

the right response to uh the the compl the the complicated

nature of our 21st century existence. Um I think uh and and a teachable spirit is

really a testimony to this. Um I think that it is possible to be a humble

learner in chaotic times and still have a deep faith in Christ. And I would even

say being a teachable person um would can deepen your relationship

with Christ. So I don't think hiding our head in the sand is the right response. I think there's a better way forward.

Yeah. Why do we have a complicated relationship with being teachable? It it

feels as though the humility embedded within Jesus, our primary example, would make it a feature

of ours. And yet, I feel like being teachable is not probably one of the first ways the secular world would describe a follower

of Jesus or at least a Christian in a generic sense. So, why why do we struggle with being teachable? That's a really great question. Um, I

I'll tell you a story that that gets at the heart of it real quick. Um, a couple years ago I had been watching this uh

this news story of a young woman about 25 years old who very young in her

political career. She was a she she worked for a political uh candidate who was running for uh who

was running for office um in uh where they were and she got caught up doing

some stuff that was uh illegal. Nobody was hurt. It was just she did some she

made some mistakes. Um and she was in her court in she was in her uh her own

testimony stage of her uh of her uh um her time in court and she basically

completely broke down uh in I mean it was like a public scene of repentance.

You know how in the Old Testament uh you know people would rip their s they rip

their clothes or they put on sackcloth or put ash on their head like public acts of repentance. I mean she was just

shattered by what she was she had done and she was apologizing and saying I've learned from this. I'm not going to do

this again. um you know she was they these were not crocodile tears like she

was really um brokenhearted about this and I was sort of hoping like gosh what

a beautiful moment like we because we rarely see people publicly admit they're

wrong in public any in public anymore it's so rare and I was sort of hoping like this might

be a breakthrough for some humility and that evening as I got on social media it

dawned on me as I was watching that everybody was dunking on this young

woman for her stupidity. And what basically was happening was she her her

her her being teachable was being weaponized against her. She was getting

dunked on for being humble. And I think part of part of the question your question why are Christians struggling

with this is I think our cultural moment has done a fabulous job of of basically

weaponizing people's humility against them and weaponizing their teachability against them that if you dare to be

wrong about something um then we're going to mock you to no end. So what do we do? The best thing we do is oh we

protect ourselves against getting mocked so we just can never be wrong.

H yeah. So there's I think there's some cultural pressures that make it very afraid and I

think as Christians too I think that we're afraid I think part of part of us is afraid to

learn from people outside the church um we're afraid for example with COVID and

experts and listening to um medical professionals. It's a scary thing you know who who's right what what what do

we believe? It's just that there's a lot of scary tensions in there. Even beyond

the implications of a fact being accurate or inaccurate, what truth to

believe, it feels like it provokes something on an even more fundamental level, like an identity thing. Like when

someone admits that they're wrong, it's almost as if the world, Christian and otherwise, reacts like, "Whoa, what are you what are you doing that provokes a

spirit of our age that somehow our knowledge and our identities are interwoven?" Would you say that beyond

the facts? Cuz I want to talk about experts, but Jes but just even fundamentally who I am as a follower of

Jesus should enable me or allow me to be wrong and still be okay. Do you think

part of this is just that we don't we have lost our sense of identity detach from the things we know or do not know

or even the mistakes we make or do not make and because of that we we've found ourselves in a position where we have to

protect being right or wrong because that's the very nature of who we are now. Yeah, man. Great question, Ben. I

mean, I I I I think that a quick reading of the Gospels and the portrayal of the

disciples um I mean, just about every page in the Gospels, the disciples are

either thrown under the bus or um are are wildly wrong about something

and Jesus has to correct them on. And that that is our book uh given to us

by God. Yeah. To teach us about ourselves. It should be a normal experience for Christians to

experience being wrong. That that's a normal that should be a normal thing. Every day we

should anticipate being wrong about something. Um you know what Jesus taught

at in the the his farewell address in John's gospel is he taught um that that

you will be given the spirit um who will lead you into all truth. That's a a

really compelling uh that the spirit will be your teacher, right? Who leads you into all truth. Um that's a really

interesting image of the spirit. The spirit as the teacher who lives inside of us. Um and the spirit lives with us

and goes with us everywhere that we go. And that means that the spirit can speak to us and teach us and correct us

anywhere that the spirit wants to do that. Um, and so the spirit is, you

know, what an interesting idea this that you have a teacher who lives inside of you. That's such an interesting concept

to to think about. That's profound. In our world, you know,

we focus a lot on evangelism, a lot on getting followers of Jesus to step outside of their comfort zones and

preach the gospel. And I think being teachable has a profound impact on this

because you tend to have two polarities. On one end, you have someone who is so afraid of stepping out into those

conversations and being exposed as not knowing something or being wrong in a particular area that they won't do it.

Or on the other hand, you have people who are so convinced that they're right about everything and have nothing to

learn, even, you know, heaven for forbid, from a non-believer, that they

do not have productive conversations outside of the church because they just are so triumphant in all of their

knowledge about absolutely everything. So even as it relates to being effective witnesses for Christ, what impact does

teachability have on that in the sense that it creates the proper posture like we can just go out.

It's not my rightness that's on the line. It's the gospel.

So what role does teachability have even in our ability to fulfill the great commission?

That's a really great question. You know, Jesus said uh there's this really interesting little teaching in um uh in

Luke's gospel. I think it's Luke 10 if or 12 some somewhere in there. um where

Jesus sends out the 72 disciples and he gives these really interesting little commandments uh that as he sends them

out two by two for example he he tells them don't greet anybody on the road which is

a very weird commandment because you would think that's the part of the mission right but that is is to talk to

people as you go but his point is not don't talk to people his point is don't get distracted uh from the ultimate goal

I'm sending you for don't don't get you know torn turn to the right or the left. Um he he says a number of other little

things, but one of them that that's always stands out to me is he says uh do not take with you a purse as uh any

extra sandals uh extra money extra money.

And that that's a that commandment of don't take with you any extra money

to to me has always boggled my mind. It has never made sense uh to to to me why

Jesus would say that because we teach people as missionaries, you got to be fully funded before you

go. Yeah. Right. And it seems like everything Jesus is saying there is the opposite.

Don't go fully funded. Right. And I think the reason he's doing this, the the reason he's saying this is

he is trying to cultivate a certain kind of spirit in his disciples that I want

to send you as a missionary, but I need you to go vulnerably

so that you need the people that you're being sent to reach. Oh, interesting.

Because if you if you have no needs, then you don't actually need them. It's

it's not a real relationship. It is just a colonial you're coming and perfectly

bringing everything and don't need anything. But if you go in and and you need, you know, somebody to host you as

a for as a place to stay, if you come in needing to get a job, if you come in needing some help, then it it develops a

reciprocal missional relationship. How does that apply to this? Um, we are sent

into the world, right? And as we go, I think part of God's design is that we

can learn from our neighbors and our friends and our co-workers that don't know Jesus.

Yeah. And because we, you know what, as Christians, we believe in something called common grace, which means that God gives knowledge and

great expertise through non-venant people. This happens all the time in the Old Testament. It happens all the time

in scripture. Um, common grace is our belief that God can teach us uh and give

uh us knowledge and insight through even the outsider. So when we go I think I

think that that spirit uh that Jesus is trying to cultivate and his disciples still matters for us. Go into the world

bearing the gospel of Jesus. Yeah. But go in willing to learn from the person you're sharing it with because

they may have something to teach you too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I found it's very effective to reframe the conversation as

a joint pursuit of what's true, right? Because I think often it can be it can be perceived or even it can the

way we do it can rightly give the impression that it's me the expert communicating to you the person that

does not know. And of course I'm not saying we don't have truth that we've learned or that you know God has revealed to us. But if

you just reframe it as look, I I believe there is truth, which is a whole another conversation in a world that doesn't

necessarily always live as if that's true. And I want to pursue that with you and I don't know a lot of things and I'm

sure you don't either. And if we would honestly pursue it together, I think we might arrive at a conclusion, you know,

that I think I believe is true. But how much of it is is just having the patience to to kind of in a sense detach

the truth from you and say, "Hey, let's pursue this together and let's see where this leads." And as followers of Jesus,

we should have confidence that an honest pursuit of truth will lead well to the truth, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, at that at that point, it it doesn't become I'm

right and you're wrong. It it becomes uh we're both probably wrong in a number of ways. So let's let's uh align ourselves

to finding truth uh together. Yeah, I think I think that's a different posture. Of course, as you know, as a

Christian, I really do believe the gospel is true and it's the truest story. And I think that Jesus is the

way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the father except through Jesus. And so I, you know, I don't want

to be deceptive about that and pretend like I don't believe that because I I'm I'm that that's a part of the testimony

a Christian should never be wishy-washy on. Um, so as long as in our heart of hearts, we don't allow that

to uh lean us in the direction of of, you know, neglecting the truth of what

we believe as Christians. Right? as it relates to pursuing effective conversations with those

outside of the church. I think what I've seen it can be a tendency is to

want to be very clear where we align on certain hot topic cultural flash points.

And while of course I totally agree that we need to stand up for what's true, it

often feels as though for those who have not yet encountered the love of Jesus, these topics on the periphery that are

vitally important but kind of tension points can be almost

more of a barrier than a help to a productive gospel conversation. So how do we first of all do you agree with that

idea? And second of all, how do we wrestle with that balance of being humble and teachable but also stand up

for for the truth and and publicly refute lies that are destroying people

because I think some people would say, "Well, yeah, I want to be teachable, but I'm not just going to capitulate to all

of the lies of culture and never say anything that I believe is true." Help people navigate that tension because

Jesus was firm and humble at the same time. And I think we need to be also. Yeah. um in the the the in in my in the

in the teachable spirit uh there's a chapter in there um that uh looks at learning from secular culture

and um and I and I bring up the story of uh Daniel uh in in exile. It's it's an

interesting case study in the in in how to and how not to engage with culture

cuz cuz Daniel is not is not about hey you're in exile now do as you know the

Babylonians do. It it's actually a very clear

way of showing us that there are certain things that one should not do. So I'll give you an example. Um when you read

Daniel 1, you find that Daniel refuses to eat the food of the Babylonians. the the Babylonian uh royal royalty food.

So, he he refuses to eat the food of the king, yet he's willing to work in the in

the front office of the Babylonian headquarters. Mhm. Now, that that isn't that weird because

on one level, he's like deeply disengaged. He he refuses to partner in one in one way, but in another way, he's

he gets his W2 from Babylon. Hm. So, h knowing knowing where we engage

and where we don't engage is very important for that story. And he has,

you know, a clear commitment to um his covenant relationship with Yahweh based

on um uh based on his knowledge of the scriptures up to the point in his life that he had. um he has a clear

relationship with um you know uh his love for God. I mean he the the po my my

my point is is that there there there was he had a rubric to know where to

where to enter into dialogue and where he couldn't. You know in our moment in

time I agree with you. It would not be um super wise if you wanted to start a

conversation with somebody on a bus and just start talking about sexuality. Yeah.

that that conversation isn't going to go super

trust built where you know what your base foundational beliefs are or theirs are. Um you know when I'm I teach a

class on on sexuality and gender, Bible sexuality and gender. It's my favorite class I I teach. And uh in that class, I

spend the first month just talking about the authority of scripture. That's all I

teach about because a conversation about sexuality is is not really about sexuality. It's about authority.

Who has the final say about anything? and and so that the

class only works because uh the students have a shared uh agreed basis of

authority for um what is what is what is true and and what is not. You can't have

those kinds of conversations unless there's some shared agreed um otherwise

you can have conversations about sexuality and gender. You just need to know it those may be painful

conversations. they they may not be the exciting conversations that you might might might want.

Um so yeah, in general though the most important thing I would say is the depth of

relationship will uh create the the the kind of space needed for true

transformative conversations to happen. Right? The more trust you have built in a relationship with a non-believer, uh the

deeper that conversation can go. So, just front end it with a lot a lot of of

earning trust and building trust that you're a safe person to talk to about hard stuff, right? And I think relativism, which

we've touched on a little bit in the first few minutes here, is plays a complicating role in all of this because

from my vantage point and in my experience, people are relatively

willing to hear and listen to ideas. But it's when anything becomes absolute or

an injunction of some kind or this should affect the way you live and there is no you know this is right and and the

counter perspective to this is wrong and so how much of that is plays a role in

in the challenge that we have as we interact with people and that they we

don't want to on one hand we want to build trust and we want to let the conversation develop as it goes but at some point we do have to say from my

vantage point this is right and this is wrong and that really provokes the spirit of our age I would say even more than just having

views it's when those views become the view like capital T truth so how do we navigate that

um we have to cultivate what uh awtoer called humble he called it uh humble

dogmatism or gentle dogmatism interesting yeah gentle dogmatism and and gentle dogmatism is is his concept of we must

have a ruthless commitment to um

historic Christian teachings, a ruthless commitment to um the the the core stuff

that Christians have always believed and an unflinching in an unflinching way.

And yet we do it with a huge smile on our face and such kindness and such

gentleness. And th those two things you know as you are well aware Ben um

sadly it is often seen that the people who are most ruthlessly committed to key

orthodox issues tend to be the can sometimes be the meanest people.

Right? And uh I think that the pathway forward is is something akin to what

toes are called gentle dogmatism is that we um we stand firm on God's word and we

stand firm on what the church has taught um but we do so with a giant smile and a

huge sense of humility and kindness towards whoever we are engaging. And that's a that's a it's a hard thing to

cultivate both of those at the same time. Yeah. Um but I can tell you um uh don't

allow um I do I do feel just a sense that it's

important to say don't allow this conversation about humility to be turned

into nah your beliefs don't matter all that much. Just don't presume that you

know everything. That can be a really dangerous perspective too where you just sort of throw away your core convictions

in the name of humility. That's uh true humility doesn't give up uh it's deeply

held beliefs um just just to do so. So don't don't just be like well you know I

shouldn't hold deeply to any beliefs. I don't think that's what humility is. Humility to me

um is holding deep deeply held beliefs that that are non-negotiable to you. Um

and and and at the same time doing it with a soft-heartedness towards people like

um be be close-minded about your theology but openhearted uh towards your relationship towards people or something

to that effect and that's a tough paradox or apparent paradox to navigate. I think that yeah

that is something that that is so absolutely necessary in this context and I think part of it is our culture has

framed tolerance incorrectly. It's framed tolerance as, you know, ideas are

guarded and and they're interwoven with people's identities in a way where that wasn't always the case. Where it was

perfectly understood that I can disagree with your perspectives on things and

still love and respect you, the person. And I think that's part of why a lot of

Christians are afraid to engage because they know that to affirm this person

means I have to affirm everything about him. So, I either fight or flight. I either go, "Okay, well, here we go. I'm

going to have to attack their identity or the perception that I'm attacking their identity, or I'll just capitulate and just everything's love and

everything's good." Yeah, that's right. I don't know. Part of it is just it's hard to stomach the fight that it takes

to confront the lie in our culture that I am my ideas. Yeah. They're not just a part of maybe what I

believe and need to change over time. Yep. Yeah. It's funny um that our co our

culture um does not do very well with ideas what

we are told in a counseling office we should do which is practice differentiation. Like differentiation in

in a therapist office is when we're we're taught that it is important that you are your own self and that you don't

you don't need to be the same as somebody else in order to have a relationship with them. You can be a differentiated person. any counselor

would do a good deal of work teaching their their patients that. Yet in our culture, it is assumed ideologically or

uh on a on a level of ideas or lifestyles that if you don't agree with what I do or think, then uh we can't

have a relationship. And that creates relationships of imshment because no

longer can I actually be who I think I'm supposed to be. I now have to bend

everything I am for your sake. And that that's a very dangerous way to create a

culture because then we're all it's it's uh you you know that uh that Spider-Man

meme where all three of them are like like they're all it feels it feels like we're all holding

each other at hostage, right? Are you are you are you with me? Are you with me if you're not with me? And then

they're like, but I don't like that guy. And then it it just creates a weird

hostage situation, right? And it doesn't create an environment where real learning can take

place because the vulnerability and the willingness to be wrong and change by

definition requires a context that allows for that. Yeah. And so if we've created an environment

where the only way I can coexist with you is to surrender the parts of me that

would confront any part of you that makes you uncomfortable and vice versa. We've created just very superficial

relationships which I think people feel which is why when those that come out of the woodworks that are willing to just

speak the truth. Sometimes it's costically. Sometimes it's it's it's wrong and destructive. But I think

people flock to that because it's refreshing because it's someone who is actually just saying what they think.

Yeah. Which I think we desperately need. Yeah. Well, there's a there's a there's a reason. I'm I'm not advocating him as

a good source of but I you know there's a reason Joe Rogan has the most listened to podcast in him in the world. Um he's

not afraid to to speak truthfully what he he believes. It doesn't mean he's he's actually truthful, but it's what he

believes and he does so with without fear of repercussion. Um and I think

people are really drawn to that um that that level of of of boldness. Um

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yet even within that tension, I get frustrated with him sometimes because I feel like

the endlessly curious there's there is a cowardice is way too

strong of a word, but there is a degree of like do you stand for anything or do you simply become a chameleon of whoever

you happen to be around? because he's with the Christian guy and then he's he seems to be in that direction and then

he's with the guy who is all about drugs and he's with that guy and it's just to some degree there is a level of yes our

teachability and curiosity has to have a bedrock of conviction because in the absence of that it just I

think that runs its course and becomes kind of frustrating. Yeah. Paul Paul says in the last days

people will be learners uh they will be endless learners but never able to come

to the truth. Um, and there's a, you know, a sense of which there's a form of

learning that's very dangerous. That's it's we're just learning about everything all the time, but we're never landing anywhere. Um, and that's that's

a we the the I I can't I can't remember who it was who who first said this to me,

but you can be a spiritual seeker in our culture. Um, you're allowed to be a spiritual seeker, but the minute you become a

spiritual finder, Yeah. you're close-minded and arrogant and bigoted and backwards

and there there's so much wisdom in that because you know like the in in our culture it is so cool to be a

learner. It's so cool to be a spiritual seeker or to, you know, do do all the spiritual things. But the minute you're

like, but Jesus is the way, then then it's like, oh, the conversation's over. You just ended it.

Thanks for making things awkward. um you know so strange and so but that perfectly

captures I think the the spirit of Joe Rogan which is the perpetual learner with very few conclusions which again

I'm not trying to judge him specifically but I think he kind of epitomizes or symbolizes the the the modern archetype

of the guy who's willing to hear and listen with as you said never really landing anywhere so um let me pivot here

quick to so chapter 2 talks about learning from experts and I think experts is a word or a person or

whatever you want to call it that we have a tenuous relationship with especially postco

um we all love experts when they say what we want to say what is an expert

how do we discern that and and what role do they play in the body of Christ to help us to be more effective following

Jesus and witnesses to the world yeah I mean an expert is um is a person

who has been given a level of um a level of authority in a particular particular

domain or area of expertise. Um, and somebody

that has not only uh they don't have a selfdefined

uh expertise but they have been endowed that with the community of individuals

who are are leaders in that particular uh area. So um you know it's interesting

Christians can tend to be really uncomfortable with experts but you know keep in mind um two of the New Testament

writings Luke and Acts were both written by um a doctor. um they were written by a professional expert from the first

century who um would have spent years training as a medical professional and

eventually writes the Gospels of Luke and the book of Acts. Um as a as a

doctor um it is you know as a Christian you do believe in an expert and and you

when you submit yourself to those books you're you're listening to a a doctor teach us about Jesus. And it's

interesting because Luke actually tells more healing stories than any of the other gospel writers. He has more

interest in those because because of what? Guess what? His expertise. He's looking at things through his life his

life story. So yeah, um I think Christians are very susceptible to um I

I I'll put it this way. I think some people are too susceptible to overrusting experts and some are too

susceptible to underrusting experts. M so we tend to be either super dismissive

or we tend to be over overrusting and I the point of this chapter is just

to come to a balanced perspective to learn from experts where it is

appropriate and submit ourselves to what they have to offer us and at times how

to discern the garbage because there's a lot of garbage too and it's not um it's

not always easy to discern the difference but um you know rather than rehashing the big points here. I want go

read the book because yeah, the the there's I I give like five or six things to be looking for in a trustable uh

expert. Um but I think I think that's that's a that's a key thing in in the in the

world where again there's so much knowledge out there. We all tend to trust the experts to tell us how to

interpret that knowledge and that's okay. But we just need wisdom in how and

who to trust when it comes to those experts. Yeah, that's great. One of the probably

more controversial chapters, I'd imagine, is learning from your enemies. And it feels like the key word that

maybe people would wrestle with is from as opposed to about. You know, I would say some people just

don't want to have anything to do with their enemies whatsoever. Some might be willing to learn about their enemies,

you know, you know, tactical information. Uh, but from there seems to suggest a

level of intimacy and humility from people that wa they we already know by definition they're enemies, right? So

they're they're teaching the wrong stuff. Quickly unpack that for me. How do how does one wrap their minds around

learning from enemies? Well, uh, keep in mind first of all, um, keep in mind that

learning from somebody doesn't mean that you agree with them. Um, if I learn something from someone,

for example, um, I have a debate with one of my classes every year, um, around uh, if it

would be wise for us uh, in the 21st century, should we still be reading

books by, for example, should we still be reading Hitler's Minecom?

like as part of our education uh journey and it's a really fun debate because

some students have you have I read mine comp I've heard it's a a laborious read but

I'm just curious sections I've read the the the the real pertinent sections in and obviously

English I don't I don't know German but um uh yeah it's not a fun read no it's I

mean it's soul sucking and but the question is you know do we read it or do we abandon it and some would say

well you abandon it because it's evil and wrong. I agree it's evil evil and wrong. But if you if you just chuck it,

doesn't that end up giving it more power? So the meaning in the sense and like

and by the way this is not me advocating for everybody to go out and buy a copy of mine comp. I'm using this as an illustration. I actually think and I

argue this in class that it's important for us to engage the ideas in mine comp

because it is only in in in engaging them that we can actually have a solid

argument against them. Right? So in in order to be able to to

undermine the ideology espoused here, I I've got to I've got to actually be able

to learn it before I can defeat it. H so in a in a way like and not all

learning from enemies means it's tactical in that sense but don't I I

think that the the learning from enemies component is important because it reminds us that just because you're

learning from somebody does not mean you agree with what you're learning. Um you can learn from your enemies and and

wildly disagree with everything that they're saying and still be learning from them. I remember going through a

phase where I was really getting into apologetics and I was almost afraid to read these atheist books like the sort

of the the pillar atheist books. I don't know what it was. I don't know whether it was it was early 20s and maybe I was

just afraid of the the arguments I would find in there and I I have definitely come to not fear them the way I did. But

I think there is a a tremendous parallel almost between sin and lies that they're

exposed in the light. Oh yeah. Right. that you need to allow them to be exposed. If they're hidden away, that don't, like you said, almost gives them

a forbidden power. Like what's what is this thing that I'm told not to look at? You know, that is psychologically you

say don't look right. You're everything in you says look right. Um but as you said and I think it also comes back to

this this idea that we got to pursue truth and that part of the pursuit of truth is to allow bad ideas to be

exposed by good ones and to allow the truth to defend itself in a sense. Um,

so I totally respect that. We got a few minutes left here, so I want to I want to end with this. Um, I it is

overwhelming today to know what to to learn, where to go. I mean, it's just we're so

inundated. And, you know, in some ways, I get the irony as being part of that problem, but there's so much out there

for people to listen to and consume. How do you discern what to learn, let

alone the need to learn at all? you know, I a lot of what I I need to learn

is often tied to what I'm teaching, writing, or preaching on. It's often tied to to to that.

Um, not always. Um, but but but very often, but I would say that more more

important than what you're learning is how you're choosing to learn. And I would say make it a decision to rather

than go wider in your learning, go deeper in your learning. Like like don't

Don't listen. You're going to learn a lot more by listening to a podcast episode at one

time speed than listening to it at three times speed. Um, and we we I think we're

all tempted to want to do more. But I think when you go deeper, the impact is so much better on our brains,

our hearts, and our minds. So, I would just say slow down in your learning. Whatever it is, slow down in your

learning and don't you don't need to take it so fast. That's such great advice. This sounds like lame name dropping, but one

conversation that very much had a profound impact on me was when I would I had William Lane Craig on. And

what was so interesting about my conversation with him was I would ask him questions that he would consider

outside of his area of expertise. And he simply would say, I don't know, or I don't feel qualified to answer that.

And I I dug into that a little more. And his response was like, I made a decision at a very early age. I wanted to be an

expert at one thing and and he's continually disciplined himself to narrow that scope.

Interesting. And it was it was it was fascinating. And of course, I felt convicted by that because it it's reinforcing from a

person that's demonstrated it. That's right. And and he said, I felt this conviction from the Lord that if I devoted myself

to a certain thing, then I would be a better blessing to the body of Christ than if I just became an inch deep in a

thousand things. That's great. And I thought, "Oh man, okay, I might have to rethink it." So

AJ, this has been really great. And I know you got a a time crunch here, so I I want to make sure that I that it end

as as we said we would, but I highly recommend that everyone goes out and reads A Teachable Spirit: The Virtue of

Learning from Strangers, Enemies, and absolutely anyone. I'm assuming it's absolutely everywhere and anywhere that

books can be found. We'll link it everywhere. I do a little intro before this where I'll mention it as well, but

not just that book. I'd recommend all of them. Your writing has really profoundly impacted me. So, I appreciate you

and uh I know you're busy, so you got to go. But, uh, thank you. Thank you for being on the Provoke and Inspire podcast. Thanks for all that you're doing,

brother. Keep it up. Thanks for watching Provoke and Inspire. If you enjoyed this content, could you do me a favor and hit that like button,

leave us a comment because this ultimately is a conversation. Hit that bell thing, I think, right? And, uh,

YouTube seems to be recommending another video for you to watch. Check it out. Stay involved. Also,

provokeandinsspirepodcast.com for everything else. That's it. Peace.