Why Do Churches Hide Sin? Bethel, Shawn Bolz, and Cover-Up Culture

Welcome to the Provoke and Inspire podcast, where we look at culture and we ask, what would Jesus think and what would Jesus do? And today, joining me, as always, is David Pierce, my dad, and Chad Johnson. What's up fellas. Great to be here with everyone. Great to be here today. We are going to dive right into another very challenging conversation. And we're going to ask the very necessary question, why does the church so often hide sin instead of exposing it? And unfortunately, this conversation is prompted by yet another very recent example of this happening once again. So let me just give you guys the context and then we will react. So over the last few weeks, a major controversy has come to light involving Shawn Bolz, a well-known prophetic minister who has frequently invited to speak and prophesy at Bethel Church. A long, detailed video released in January by Christian apologist Mike winner. Winner by Mike winger. Uh, well, you know, it's kind of a winner in a sense. Uh, alleged that bulls engaged in fraudulent prophetic practices using publicly accessible personal information, often from social media, and then presenting it as supernatural words of knowledge. And then, of course, on top of that, there was sexual misconduct and harassment charges or allegations by many of his team members over a long period of time. So of course there's that. But then Bethel leadership has since publicly responded and apologized, admitting that they had made mistakes and failures in the way that they handled this. They first learned about the sexual harassment allegations and some of the integrity that was lacking in bulls prophetic words all the way back in twenty nineteen. According to them, they confronted him privately and did eventually stop platforming him, uh, but never communicated clearly with their congregation or the wider Christian community. And so recently, after this, Mike winger content started coming out. There was all these statements from the key leaders like Bill Johnson and Chris. How do you say his last name? Valentine. It's it's a it's a softer Valentine. Yeah. Uh, they acknowledged in a joint statement that they did not act with sufficient transparency, clarity or urgency and that their silence hurt and scared people. They express regret for not speaking up sooner and are now instituting new accountability measures. So you got this horrible situation with Sean Boles. Then you've got the church that was associated with him that platformed him. That would often have him come speak, finding out about all of this stuff in twenty nineteen and then not making it public. So I wanted to ask this key question that I led with, which is why do churches hide sin instead of exposing it? I guess the best way I can answer your question is that it's the domino effect. Like the fear of calling someone out publicly is the way it will cause for others to be affected. And when I say others, I mean like the insiders, those who are closest and in leadership. Ministry leaders in this case, very well known, very well established ministry leaders and ministries. Maybe the domino effect isn't the exact parallel I should draw, but maybe it's more like the stain of being splashed with oil that just doesn't come off your clothing. You know, like if you get hit with with hot oil, it's probably gonna burn a hole in your shirt, which has happened to me. And it basically ruins your shirt because, you know, it leaves stains that you can't do anything about. So I think it's that I think it's that if we call someone out, then we will by default, selfishly and very likely be also Affected in a negative way. Yeah. David, what was your reaction to this? I have so many reactions, but like one of the things that Bill Johnson said is that he believes in people and he's a weakness. I don't know, I think part of the temptation can be I've preached on this often, what Jesus said in Matthew seven seven where he said, do not judge, or you too will be judged. And for the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. So one of the things that I hated when I was doing the research on this was all these YouTube channels just on exposing Christian leaders by these so-called other Christian leaders, you know what I mean? It's a thing. It seems like I even saw this one guy talking about his well, this was a good exposure video of this leader, but this one was not so good. And I'm like, what the heck is going on here? It's wrong. But I think that can be one of the reasons that someone would hesitate to want to expose someone publicly is because you don't want to be that guy, you know what I mean? But you don't have that kind of luxury with that kind of platform. You know, we often talk about on this podcast, the verse in James where it says that not many should want to be leaders because they'll be held to a higher standard. And that is an incredibly charitable view of why they would choose not to expose this. I think that's one of them. I think that probably that's one of the rationalizations, but that's nonsense. Trying to find the positive. Like, I had been around prophetic circles where someone would call out something in an audience, or like they would ask someone to stand up or they'd say, hey, is there someone here that that has a mom that's like passing away or some, some, like detail or something? Then that person would stand up and they'd be like, I believe that God gave me a word for you. And they would share maybe some like fairly specific encouragement and like, God knows what you're going through. And like it's been a really hard time, but he's with you and, you know, and everyone would kind of be like, man, that's so cool. And they all be crying and it's so emotional and intense. But Sean's gifting was so extreme that he was calling out street addresses, specific names of people and or places or things related to them and experiences. And it was so consistent that, I mean, I would guess in some ways he would be the headliner at an event. Again, I think where I want to go with this conversation is this look, I don't think we necessarily go down the road of the prophetic and digging into that. That might be for a different time, different conversation. To me, I think the tragedy of all this is that, look, we all know we're all imperfect. Everybody has fallen short. Even leaders fall short. We've also at many times, in many ways, had the discussion about why all these moral failures happened, a lack of accountability, being isolated, the trappings of fame and success. We've talked about all that, and we can do that again. Sadly, another big leader at some point will fall and we can have that conversation again. Not that we want to be, you know, like you, David, I always have a little bit of this aversion to that, because I don't want to be the guy that's just like TMZ Christian, and I'm just here to expose the sins and flaws of everyone. I don't like that either, but that conversation is important. And let's remember the context here. We're in full time ministry. We have influence and platform on some level, maybe not to that level, but we certainly do. And so we are speaking within our context and within our area. Maybe the angle that we haven't discussed as much is the instinct of the institution to hide rather than expose sin. And what the reasons for that are, because as I was reflecting on this, I read a study about the impact that this has. When an institution at the institutional level, something is covered up and how damaging that is, because you think about, for a everyday follower of Jesus, when a specific person fails in some way, that hurts them, especially if it's a leader. And that hurts them, of course. But I think there's an intuitive understanding that that's one person. They're imperfect, just like I am. But when the institution itself then goes to the lengths to cover it that becomes so damaging because now a person goes, I can't even trust the church. I can't even trust Christianity in general to have my back and warn me that I'm going to this person and they're lying to me. And so I think it's really important, even maybe, you know, it's like there's that verse in James. Not many should consider being teachers because they'll be held to a higher standard. Should there not be a verse or is there not a verse? Not many should be considered being institutions because they'll be held to an even higher standard, because when the institution fails you in that way, the ramifications of that are so widespread, the amount of deconstruction and deconversion and hurt and abuse and trauma and everything that that leads to. I don't buy the excuse like, oh, well, you know, I just believe in people too much. No, I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying I think that's why it happens. But I can give you a real personal example of this. I won't say names or countries, but there was a country that we were involved in, which is a very. Strategically, really important. And we had a really great platform there. And. The couple that I had go there had a moral failure. And so they came back to. Another country. I'm being very vague here. But anyway. And so this is all Canada. By the way. Yeah. And so I was saying, listen, you know, you need to get this sorted. You need to go through some restitution and you need to get counseling, but, you know, not the kind of counseling where they're a victim, but, you know, deal with their stuff, get it together, and then, you know, then we'll get you strong. And then you can go back to this other country where we had this really amazing thing happening, and it will be good. And, uh, they said, no, we're just going back. And so then I'm in this dilemma. What am I going to do? I can't let them just go back to this other major church in this other country and not tell the leaders what happened with this guy, you know what I mean? It's like, how would I like it if someone did that to me. In fact, someone did do that to me back in the early days. They recommended that someone in our band should play a particular role in the band, and it turned out the guy was exposing himself everywhere. It was like he had this thing where he was and and the the leader didn't tell me, you know? He didn't tell me about it. And so then it came out, I knew I forgot something and it came out, no pun intended. So then we had to give him the right shoe of fellowship. But I'm like, what? What is that? And I thought, I am not going to do this same thing. Right. You know, and this was a very influential city in Asia. So I call him up and I tell him and the result of it was this I lost my relationship with the couple because they were mad at me that I told this leader what they did. And then the leader of this church stopped being involved with me and with our mission. So it cost me. But we have to have enough integrity that we're it's going to cost us, if I would have let them go and not have told this other leader what was going on, and that they weren't repentant, they weren't willing to go through any process of restitution or whatever. What kind of leader am I? But it was hard to do honestly. That to me is the center of the bull's eye of this conversation. And Chad, I really liked your analogy of the oil because it's absolutely true. I remember getting this really cool snowboarding jacket when I was in high school. Like it was the best and I loved it. Might have been the first time I ever used it. And I get home and it's just got this weird blotch of like, what later I figured out was oil. The jaguar was done. It was ruined. I had to throw this jacket that I loved. I essentially had to throw it away because it had this big, ugly oil stain on it. And I think the analogy is very fitting because make no mistake, when someone who you're associated with or you had them on staff or they were part of you in some significant way, there is legitimate collateral damage to other people's sins. Yeah. And that's the part I think that people struggle with because you go, I don't want to get oil on me. This is a whole nother conversation about the institution or the machine, the business that a lot of missions and churches have become. And so you've got this payroll and you've got this influence, and you've got these brand deals and you've got this all this stuff that you're trying to, like, keep afloat. And then in your head you're going, I didn't do this. This munter did it. He's the one who did all that. Exactly. And the fact of the matter is, there is real collateral damage. I thought about the whole Ravi Zacharias situation and how many good, beautiful, loving people were wrapped up in associated with him, not the least of which his kids, I mean, like his daughter had like a major role in his ministry, the Ravi Zacharias International Ministry. That should have maybe been your first indication, but there was legit collateral damage. They lost their jobs, the ministry folded. Their opportunities probably plummeted. They had to rebuild. And yet, like you said, David, I think the core of this is in the name of self-preservation and in the name of rationalizing the idea that, well, because I didn't do it, I shouldn't have to bear the brunt of this collateral damage. I think what you said is exactly right. You need to have the integrity to say, my first job is to disciple this flock, not to preserve my institution and reputation and financial, whatever my job is, to protect the flock and make disciples. And I have to have integrity no matter the cost. And to do the right thing was going to cost me. And that's why I didn't want to do the right thing. Of course, of course, I would argue that we are uniquely positioned as a platform and a podcast to talk about topics like this, because anyone who's been listening or following along at all knows that I personally had a moral failure. That, compared to some of the stuff I'm watching and reading, we could be like, Chad, emotional affairs are not that bad. Looking at porn's not that bad. Masturbating is not that bad. Like. But no it is. It's all sin. It all grieves God's heart. It all separates me from God and others from God, and it all is a recipe for disaster. We're going on the seventh year since I admitted to Steiger, or to my pastor, or my wife, or people around me and everyone listening, really struggling, everyone who's listening to this podcast back then that I was really struggling. And, um, and I would argue it's been a seven year journey that I am still paying a price for personally because of how much that decision to pursue healing has cost. And I feel a little weird saying that because it's almost like, hey everybody, look at me. I'm the narcissist that had a problem that's now better. I'm clearly still a work in progress. We are all works in progress, man. It's honestly just heartbreaking. I was crying this morning, just like for how much I was grieved by the sadness I felt over this. You know, there's a part of me, the fleshly part of me is like, is like, ooh, like all these gory details. Wow. But, I mean, that only lasts a moment. And then, thankfully, the more mature part of me kicks in and I just felt so much anger for the people who have been hurt and who have who have sold their homes or married people, or joined missions or left things or like made real huge life changes and choices because of prophetic words that they publicly received. And just to find out, it's a scam. Jeez. I do think when God sees the heart of somebody, God still honors it. My guess is that all of Sean's prophetic words were scams. Yeah, I hope not. Yeah. But again, this this delves into the aspect of this conversation that we can touch on another time, which like just to give you my ten thousand foot overview, don't get married because someone gives you a prophetic word. I agree, that's so. In other words, in other words, there's foolishness in that just from a topical perspective of the weight we put on prophetic words and how they should be measured against wisdom and counselors and the Bible and the way I see prophetic words is their there confirmation, not direction. So when I've had prophetic words that are really from God, it's a confirmation for me of something I've already felt, or it's helped me when I'm going through a crisis and it just said, it's okay, I'm with you. Don't give up. That kind of thing. And I, you know, give me a healthy confirmation of the validity of prophecy. If just one time someone was going to be sent out not to reach the entire world and all the nations, but just two people and no one will ever hear about it, you're just bitter because guy that gets martyred for going to that one. I feel that you are gonna live an insignificant life of minimal influence and limited power. Oh wow. Okay, you are bitter because that's the only prophetic words you've ever had. No, no. So anyway, look, obviously, I think what what we're all saying here is that it's horrible what was done, this systemic problem within institutions of, in my mind, primarily out of self-preservation, rationalizing, covering it, hiding it, you know, and you can call it what you want. Oh, I believe too much in people. Or. Oh, they already dealt with it, or it's between them and God. Or I didn't want there to be all this collateral damage. Rationalize it how you want. It's ultimately about self-preservation, and it's a problem that needs to change. I think we need to have a if my church burns, my church burns. But I'm going to be honest because these people need to know the truth. Yeah. And that's a costly thing to say. And I can't say I've been in that position or have had to make that decision. So I can't say that with a certain degree of authority. But one other aspect of this conversation that you touched on briefly, David, that's worth digging into a touch more is you kind of criticized or annoyed by the heresy hunting culture that exists on the internet in in more broad than that. And yet, in the absence of Mike winger's research and content that then exposed this, you probably don't get the apology. You probably don't get them coming out and saying, oh, we got caught. So now we better admit that what we did was wrong. And so in a way, God used him powerfully. So there, like with everything, it can't be all or nothing. There has to be a culture where if you're public, you are opening yourself in a way to public scrutiny. And if things become obvious that are wrong, it's okay for that to be publicly called out, right? I just would not want that ministry, let's put it that way. I do think in this guy's defense, he did put together six hours of making six hours. And I listened to this guy sharing his story like a two hour, another two hour thing I watched on two x speed. I kind of assumed, okay, the problem that Sean had was was exaggerating the prophetic. That's bad enough. It is bad enough. But when you hear the other accusations of masturbating around other people consistently, I want to say that's impossible. But as someone who is actively part of a sex addiction recovery program, there's no amount of craziness that I've heard from real people living real harsh realities, sometimes involving imprisonment or suicide attempts or whatever. Nothing's shocking anymore. And so when I heard all that, I'm like, man, this guy's just dealing with a gamut of really, really considerable, uh, character defects, including an addiction to sexual perversion. Yeah. And so in that case, the fact that he clearly was not forthcoming with his sins publicly, and since the institutions that platformed him and he was associated with were not willing to be honest and forthright about his significant negative influence on people, we needed a mike winger to call him out because he was present tense, still hurting people with these prophetic words in this sexual deviancy. So it's kind of like, I hear what you're saying, David and I agree, I find that very repulsive to the sort of pharisaic attitude or my entire ministry is just built on looking for, finding and calling out heresy. But it does feel like in a in a way, in the internet age, in the influence age and the platform age, if the institutions continue to fail us and not reveal these things when they need to be revealed, then somebody kind of has to, right? Yeah. I mean, we have to do it like you're talking about the institution. You mean churches, missions, whatever. But I think it's going to cost you. And that's what you have to embrace. You have to embrace, okay. This is we are all going to suffer from this. That's how it goes. Unfortunately, many times I think about this, how we lost this ministry in this amazing part of Asia because of this. But it's the reality of what happens when leaders have moral failures. So the other part of this is I'm going, man, I better be really careful. Like they're talking about how they had a kind of like a college dorm culture, you know, after they were after the conference, they'd all be drinking beer and smoking cigars and none of that kind of thing. And I'm thinking, man, I want to. I want to be super straight edge about my behavior, you know what I mean? Because I think it's in little things like that, that it happens, you know, it's a little compromises like that. And as a leader, you really have to have a super high standard for yourself in your private life. This is an important thing to dig into because in agreeing to a degree with what you said about heresy hunting and how I don't like that the risk is to throw the baby out with the bathwater, because what I think we need is a biblical vision of what holding each other accountable looks like, even publicly. Right? I think that's kind of what needs to happen, is we need to, as you often say, if I feel led to confront someone first, I need to look at the log in my own eye. I need to go before God in prayer. I need to make sure my motivation is right. And then, as you often say with tears in my eyes, I need to call out my brother, even if it's public. Because if I don't have access to them in that way. And so there's a posture and there's a version of this. Look, you maybe I think we talked about this and maybe you think it's silly or whatever, but there was this example where it was a totally different universe of quote, sins, but where Forrest Frank called out Cory Asbury for his video that he made. And, you know, he went online because and and he basically said, look, bro, you made this video about a serious time in my life where he broke his back and I it was hurtful. I didn't like the way it was, you know, it came across. I felt like you took a very serious moment in my life. And I just want to say that, you know, and he basically modeled what that looked like. And then Cory came back and was like, bro, I'm sorry. Like, and maybe the whole thing was a PR stunt because all of a sudden now they're doing a bunch of stuff together. Yeah, yeah. But the point in that is that what I think it did, at least on some level, is demonstrate what good public accountability can and should look like, which is it's not accusations in a bad way. It's not it's not self-righteous and sanctimonious. It was humble. It was even self-deprecating on some levels. And so I think we need to retain a culture where we hold each other accountable, just in the right way. Especially people who have public ministry. And, you know, the apostle Paul did that. He was very you know, he'd say, watch out in letters to be read publicly to a bunch of. Right. And he would just name these different dudes and say, don't hang out with Epaphroditus. That guy's right. Goon. One of the one of the tools, uh, in addiction recovery work is that you reach out to someone who's a part of your group, who you trust before you're going to do something stupid, like, because if you reach out to them before, the odds are very high that you're not going to go through with it. And so I think the prayer for me is like, if more leaders could recognize and disown themselves and just come forward and admit, like, have a have a humble posture. You know, like if, if that started happening, like, guys, I'm really struggling. I'm sleeping with someone else's wife. You know, I'm so convicted by the Holy Spirit I need, you know, whatever. The thing is that I feel like pretty big thing, but. Yes. Carry on. Yeah, I was going to say, what's hard in all this is that Bethel and Sean and all these people are being called out publicly and are responding because it's like the opposition is so loud that you're forced into a reaction, or because if you don't react, it's just like damage control. We'll never really know what a what a genuine repentant response is. But again, I think that's why there has to be an inverse relationship to fame platform where it's like I go into this knowing that the bigger my platform, the more hardcore I have to be about being honest, the more that's right. Like, I have to have this. Like the bigger the platform, the more I just say, okay, That means X. That means I can no longer do this. You know, it's like people would, like, malign the Billy Graham rules, but I think that was part of him going, I have to have hardcore rules in place where we do not tolerate X, Y and Z, where we are almost overly honest quickly because we recognize that the bigger my influence, the more the compounding damage of my silence is. I can't bigger the level, the bigger the devil, as they say. That's that's that's a good one. That's right. I'm stealing it. So the moral of this story is be careful what you wish for, man. Everyone wants that prophecy about them. You know, speaking of prophecies about how they'll reach the whole nations and be the biggest thing. Whatever. And I'm like, man, I don't know that. You gotta be real careful what you wish for, because first, it's not all that it's cracked up to be. And second of all, the level of criticism that you receive that's even unfair is crazy high. And then as you are human, as you bring more people into the mission, I almost think it's inevitable things are going to happen. It's not. If it's when are you then prepared to pay the cost of exposing that publicly? Because that's a lot easier. Yeah, but I do think we should ask God to use his powerful supernatural ways. I know you believe the same, Ben, but that means that I have to let the character be developed in me to handle that kind of platform. And it's like everyone wants a big platform, but they don't want the cost that goes with it. And I think when you're a spiritual leader, it's one hundred times more than someone who's in the world, right? Because then the world, they're all doing all that kind of stuff that Sean is talking about. But it's okay. You know what I mean? Yeah, maybe not some of it. Yeah. No, probably. But the point is not that. The point is when you have the devil's trying to get you, you know, he's a roaring lion looking to see who he's going to devour. That's the language that's used and the devil. And so when you when you have a big platform for, for for God, a spiritual platform, man, it's it's rough. And then we as leaders and if we are in a relationship with someone and we know that something has happened, we have to be willing to go, okay, this is going to hurt us all, but I have to bring this out or we have no integrity as a church or as a mission or whatever it is that we're doing. Yep. So on that note, Chad, I have a confession to make. Oh, no. Oh, no, that'd be terrible. Yep. No, that was great. David, thanks for landing the plane here. And, uh, we're gonna wait. There's no confession. No, there's no confession. You're perfect. I'm perfect. We're all perfect. No, no. No confession. Not this time. Maybe next time. Maybe the next episode will be nothing but confessions. But I have a I do have a confession, actually. Go ahead. Do we still have a minute or. No. I've got a confession to make. What's it? What is it? The best way to get a response from someone who is being nonresponsive to you is to send them this short text message. I apologize for offending you. Period. You'll get a response every time. Really? Yes. It's amazing. It works. Or you could send them this shirt. Really? You'll not get a. I'm gonna try that, but I apologize for offending you. All right, let's move on. David's random story. It's time to land the plane, baby. Well, I know a lot of our listeners know that when I started out ministry, one of the things that I did is I was in YMCA. No, the Yugoslavian army. Were you the sailor or were you the biker? I was in the Yugoslavian army, and I just want to say that I didn't see you boys there. Well, yeah, I was like you said to Luke yesterday, just a nad in the universe or whatever a na a na. So I was in this regatta and we were like, fixing houses in this Yugoslavian army thing. Wow. And so then we're working on this road because mostly we were working on, like, broken down houses, like because in an earthquake, it's like a heavy shaking and then everything falls down. Oh, is that what happens? And so then you have like, especially down there because they're all made out of like they're not made out of wood. It's made out of like mud that they dry on, on. They take mud and they lay it out on the road and they dry. They make bricks. We don't need these bricks out of it. Nobody cares what the houses are made of. When was this? Eighteen eighty two. So I repent for taking that phrase the wrong way. Really? So I don't repent. Yeah, I don't know. I'm. So I'm like, we're fixing this road because the road was, oh, you're fixing the road, so I'm fixing a road. And then why are you laughing? I don't know, so I can't get eight eighty two out of my head and fixing a road. So I'm fixing this road, and then this guy goes, I go, where are we doing? And he goes, it's a road to a nudist colony. And I'm like, I'm like, wait a minute. It's we're fixing a road. I mean, there's like all these people living in tents because of the earthquake and stuff, but they thought as one of their priorities that they should fix this road to a nudist colony. Well, yeah. They don't have shoes on. It's hard to walk on the road. And I thought I was saying to Ed, who was my who was with me there? I said, you know, we probably we're supposed to be. I love how you said Ed. And then you said, who was my. Well, so I like maybe we shouldn't, you know, we're we're supposed to be missionaries. Maybe we should not be repairing a road to a nudist colony. So we just went to the commandant and said, hey, would it be cool if we didn't fix the road to the nudist colony? And he thought that was hilarious. But he did take us off Nudist Colony road detail and put us back on house fixing detail. And so when you're in a compromised situation like that, for example, all you have to do is talk to the leader and say, hey, would it be okay if I do something else? And that way you won't destroy your life, your ministry, and your future. If it's random story, I'd imagine that scenario is probably a little too specific to be applicable. What do you mean? Perhaps the average listener will not run into that scenario, but I could be wrong. And if they find themselves building a road to a nudist colony, you're probably wrong. They know there are options. Yeah, you know you're off if you're doing that. That reminds me. So what most people don't know is that we live in a little beach town in New Zealand. When I was in high school. Well, we still live there. I just let me. Well, you never get to the point. Well, the loin doesn't fall far from the limber. Um, it's called it's called it's called peka peka. And, uh, people don't know is that. I don't know what you say. Maybe a mile and a half, two miles down the road. Going north is actually a nudist beach. Oh, really? That's true. I forgot about that. And, uh, one of the things that we used to do is my, uh, Chad shattered a quad bike, a four wheel bike, and we would go down the road and I would chuck water balloons at the people. He would go up and down, and I'd huck water balloons at, uh, where they were. They really water balloons or were they pee balloons weren't edit that. I'm not like like the Costa Rican gang that you rode around with, so. Or wherever you lived. That's a beautiful story. You're gonna have to edit that out. But the the official shirt of the episode is, how do I get edited out for saying party balloons? Ride your own pony. It's the shirt of the day. We're gonna start a new merch store, and that's gonna be the first shirt we need to make these shirts, right? Yeah, no, I know. I'm already on it. David. All these are gonna be present at the gathering in a couple of months. All right, that's it. All right. Well, thank you guys for listening. Send in your comments, concerns or just general criticisms to Luke at org. For everything else, you can go to Provoke and Inspire podcast to find us on socials. Our email address is provoke and inspire podcast at s t e I e r g. We love you. Keep it real and if I can find the end button, we're gonna end this episode right now.

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