Special Guest Dallas Jenkins, Creator of "The Chosen"!

Hey man, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for joining me, or thank you for having me, sorry. Both. I just realized something during your introduction. That I didn't realize at first. David Pierce and I actually met, uh, twenty-five years ago. Yeah. I was a college student at Northwestern in St. Paul. Right. And I wrote an article for a city magazine defending the spiritual, uh, Wrestling that was taking place in the movie Pulp Fiction, which had just come out. Yeah. And I wrote this article and David wrote a letter to the magazine Just absolutely, you weren't furious, but you were like really going after that article. And then you spoke at Northwestern Chapel. Uh, and I met you afterwards and I said, you just wrote a letter to the editor about an article that I wrote. You really didn't like it. You were upset with it. Uh, we connected and then we ended up having dinner together. Uh, David, you were with someone else. Uh, I was my girlfriend at the time. We had dinner together and talked about all these issues. It was like two hour conversation about it. And I was, I, it was. Wonderful. It was like, it was a model for how Christians should dialogue even when they disagree. And I just, I just made the connection now during the introduction, all the flashy little moves you guys were doing. I'm like, I met that guy. That's David. I know David Pierce, Steiger International, it all connected together. Wow. Dallas, I'm just what a small world. I'm grateful that it was a positive encounter because I, I feared that this was the moment when you were like, And that's it. So peace. See you later. But you notice, I thought you would say, I'm not going to do the podcast now because of our conversation. Right, right, right. No, no. It was, uh, what God intended for evil. We, uh, man intended used for good. We, we turned it into a wonderful, wonderful dialogue. So do you think it's because at Northwestern, they have required chapels that you're, you're doing okay today. Do you think that helped you? I think, I think I'm doing okay because I was required to attend your chapel. And you heard me speak. Because I want, because I liked Pulp Fiction. That has made me a better man. I think, uh, my conversation with you has made me a better man. So all of this is just full circle. The chosen exists because of that conversation twenty-five years ago. I'm convinced. Wow. Wow. That's pretty cool. Take that endorsement to the bank. Right. Uh, well, it's cool because you guys were, you know, backstage, they were talking about the, the North, is it Northwestern? Is that the name of the school? Yeah. Yeah. They were talking about the connection there and somehow this morning realized that. And it's just, you know, you're the first person in 400 episodes to come on and say, I remember you. From twenty-five years ago. So, so that must be a sign. We're going to take it as, uh, you know, better, better and greater things to come. It's so, so good. I went to Bethel. So we always kind of, you know, we always viewed Northwestern as the holier of the Of the Christian schools in our region. You know why? Clearly they're not with the Pope. You had that view because that's how, that's the truth. I'd imagine it's probably only gotten more extreme. Uh, anyway, moving on, moving out of those controversial waters. Can you share the story of how, I mean, I'm sure you've told this a million times. But for those unfamiliar how it came to be that you created this series that now is just blown up, uh, what led to that? Because I think it's fascinating and I want to hear it again and I'm sure everyone else does too. Yeah, I'll, I'll try to keep it somewhat short, but uh, I, The Chosen was actually birthed out of my biggest failure. Um, I, For twenty years have been making movies and, uh, in, in through the Hollywood system primarily. Um, I mean, I lived in LA and I was, um, I guess I shouldn't, I should clarify. It wasn't necessarily through the Hollywood system in the sense that yes, I lived in LA, but I was still doing projects mostly independently. It's just that when I was done with the projects, they would get picked up by big Hollywood studios, which is really cool. But then I had this, I finally had this opportunity to make a movie that was financed and distributed by Hollywood from the beginning. So I had done a short film for my church, a Christmas short film that got in the hands of One of the biggest producers in Hollywood, a guy by the name of Jason Blum, who runs Blumhouse Entertainment, Blumhouse Productions, which is known primarily for the most successful horror films of the last, you know, ten fifteen years, like Get out and us. So good, good church kind of stuff. Exactly, exactly. But, um, well, that's, what's funny about it is that, so they, he was interested in faith-based philosophies. Uh, films because for him, the horror films weren't necessarily something he was passionate about. It was just, it was a, it was a great investment opportunity. And, and, uh, he had kind of figured out how to do these lower budget films that would make millions, hundreds of millions of dollars. Um, and so he was intrigued by the faith-based market as well. And he saw the short film that I did. He loved it. He read the script that I was developing, loved it. Connected with WWE, the wrestling company, uh, who also has a film arm. And, uh, so I was at the time, this is just about five years ago. I was working at my church. So I had been in LA, uh, I got hired then by this mega church in Chicago to make films there and we were developing some projects and Horror film company and a wrestling company and a church in Elgin, Illinois, uh, all combined to make this, uh, that makes sense. Yeah, exactly. To make this faith-based, uh, film. And it was an amazing opportunity and it was what I had always wanted. I think I had always wanted to be affirmed, uh, by Hollywood in, in many ways. Um, and, but yet still have the chance to do A faith-based project, which is what this movie was. It was called The Resurrection of Gavin Stone. And then it came out in January of 2017 in theaters after having tested higher than any movie that either of these companies had ever done. It was, they were planning on doing five movies over the next ten years with me, faith-based films through their system. It was fine. It was distributed by universal studios. I mean, I, I, I was really, I was a director with a very bright future and then the movie completely bombed. Um, like, and we knew it within the first couple hours. You can, the numbers. Can I ask why? Or do you have any ideas now? Why, why, why it went from such great testing to bomb? Well, uh, Yes, I mean, there's lots of different reasons. I think the primary one is, even though it tested really well, um, it was, when you test a movie, it's a free, um, It's a free screening. So you invite, you know, in, in Orange County where this was tested, you know, they're just inviting people to come for the, for the, if you've ever been to Hollywood or been to LA, you've probably experienced it where someone walks up and says, do you want to, do you want to see a free movie? So a bunch of people went and saw the movie at this screening. And I remember specifically, I won't take too much time on this, but I do think it's kind of interesting. When they give their scores and they're rating all the things they like about the movie, the scores were off the charts. I mean, it was really, really great. But one of the things that stood out to me at the time was they gave it a 95% for exceeded expectations. So they can check a box, exceeded expectations, met expectations, fell below expectations. And 95% of the audience said it exceeded their expectations. And when they were giving comments, they kept saying, normally Christian movies aren't any good, but this was good. So, so funny and so interesting and so moving and all this stuff. And it was just better than they expected. And I thought, boy, this is really a double-edged sword because on one hand, They, it was way better than they expected. But on the other hand, they had a low expectation. So they wouldn't, they wouldn't have seen this movie if they had to pay for it, you know? They, and I thought we better, we better get this movie out to as many people as possible in advance so that the word of mouth can spread because people are clearly not going to expect much from this movie, which means they're not likely to pay for it. And sure enough, uh, and, and they didn't do that. They didn't do advanced screenings much. And so sure enough, people just didn't want to go see it in a theater. Now, the other reason is, and this is what leads to, to what changed my life is, Um, so I'll get to that in just, just a minute. But that day when I was home alone with my wife, um, Crushed. I mean, absolutely devastated because I went from being a director of the braid future to a director with no future in just a couple hours because all these companies, uh, Essentially pulled out of future plans. They were like, yeah, I guess we don't understand the faith based market. We'll go back to doing what we do best, which is, you know, horror films and wrestling. And so I was left just kind of like, now I'm just this director with a failed project. And there's not a line around the block to work with people like me. And I didn't know my future held and God just like a sledgehammer laid it on my wife's heart. The story of the feeding of the 5,000 and said, you know, read that story. And he also gave her this phrase, um, I do impossible math. Now, I know that everyone has different theologies about God speaking to you or not, um, but, you know, we didn't hear an audible voice or anything, but it was just like, Amanda just felt this, my wife Amanda just felt this strong, like, read the story of the feeding of the 5,000 I do impossible math. Was that normal? Would she historically come to you with directives from the Lord like that? Not really. I mean, she's more than me. I mean, I'm an old school, you know, I grew up in the Baptist tradition. We don't hear from the God. That's for charismatics to experience. That's not for us. That's for David and Ben. Yeah, the rest of us are normal. Um, but, uh, it's, it's increasingly happened as I've gotten older, but I can look at like a handful of times in my life, maybe five, where I felt like God was Whatever term you want to use for it, it was like just so clear that I was, uh, you know, that I was intended to do something or that that's a new direction in my life. And each, each of those times proved to be 100% a life-changing moment in my life. And Amanda, um, has that happen much more often than I do. Um, but this one was, was very clear for her. And so we went, we read the story of the feeding of the 5,000 and we noticed things that we hadn't noticed before. Um, even in the hundreds of times we've heard that story. And one of the main things that really stood out to us was that Jesus knew exactly what the situation was. And in fact, it was his fault. Um, he had been preaching for three days. He was the cause of their hunger and to the point where when he said, if we send them home to get food, they're going to faint along the way. That's just how hungry they are. And he knew it as soon as they mentioned it to him, you know, as soon as they said, people are starving, they need food. He's like, yeah, I know. Um, so we thought, um, Well, that's really interesting. Jesus, whether again, depending on your theology, whether he caused it or whether he allowed it to happen, he was responsible for the hunger that necessitated the miracle. And so what we thought that meant was along with I do impossible math. Okay. Maybe the box office numbers are going to be magically turned around like this. And we're going to have this amazing story to tell of God's favor. And because all those companies were like, yeah, it's over. You know, you can tell within the first couple hours it's over. I'm like, oh, but God does impossible math. You know, we'll see what happens. And that didn't happen. Nothing changed. So we weren't quite sure. We, we, we felt, we felt better about the fact that God seemed to be present in this circumstance. Cause I'm sure you guys have experienced as well. You guys have done ministry for decades. And, um, I'm sure you've had many experiences where something you thought was going to work or some initiative that you planned just ended up not having impact and you start to question yourself. I mean, David, maybe not. David hasn't questioned himself. No. Well, yeah, you're, you're, you're speaking loud and clear to me right now. So yeah, carry on. David doesn't relate, but I relate very well. So where do you go? Take, take. Take it easy on me, Dallas. But you do wonder, maybe God wasn't, because this didn't work, maybe God wasn't in it, maybe I missed the boat, you know. And, but that, that, that story reminded us that just because it didn't quote unquote succeed doesn't mean God wasn't in the process. But that night at four in the morning, I was writing a memo and this goes to your, to your question, Ben, which is, You know, what caused it? I, I was, I did a fifteen page memo about all the things that went wrong. And one of the things that went wrong was what I mentioned earlier, where it wasn't Pre-screened enough. But also, I was blaming myself. And I think rightfully so in many ways. I didn't make a movie that people were eager to see in theaters. Um, and it was a movie. It was a project I thought would work. I thought people would want to see it and they didn't. Now over the course of the last couple of years, the movie has started to do like, it's doing really well on Netflix right now. It has found an audience to some extent and perhaps continue to grow. But I, I was really putting a lot of blame on myself. Um, and I still think I should have. I mean, I made some, I made decisions that I, that I regret to some extent. Um, But at four in the morning, this message popped up on my, on my Facebook, um, that didn't say hi or hello or heard about your movie or anything. It just said, remember, your job is not to feed the 5,000 It's only to provide the loaves and the fish. And I, I honestly thought for a moment, did, did my wife and I tell anybody what we talked about today or was, was my computer recording our conversation? And I was genuinely like gobsmacked because I'm thinking, All day long we have been talking about the feeding of the 5,000 All day long we've been praying over it and reading it and making sense of it and just amongst ourselves as a married couple. And he just says this out of the blue. And so I, I said, what are you doing up at four in the morning? This is a guy I've never met. It's just a Facebook friend that I talked to maybe once a year on Facebook. And he says, um, well, I'm on, I'm in Romania. I'm in a different time zone right now. And, uh, and I said, well, before I answer you or respond, can you just tell me why you told me that? And he said, oh, that, that wasn't me. God, God told me to share that with you. And, uh, I ended up finding out later that he was walking home from a grocery store and he looked up the numbers, you know, on my movie and because he had liked the movie and he said he saw that it was a failure and he was like, oh, that's such a bummer. And he said, God, just again, like a sledgehammer, just tell Dallas it's not your job to feed the 5,000 and only provide the wolves and fish. And he was like, what? I mean, I barely know this guy. That's a pretty presumptuous thing to say. And he said, just do it. And so he did it. And it changed my life. That moment, like that moment transformed me because I was always someone who took responsibility for not only the work, but the results and the The impact. And even from a, even from good intentions sometimes. Like, I wanted to have kingdom impact. And, um, God just took all of that away from me in that day and then that night. And I truly became a different person. And so that's what allowed me to be open-minded to a few months later when I had this opportunity to do another short film for my church's Christmas Eve service. About the birth of Christ, but from the perspective of the shepherds. It's an idea that I'd had the year before, but it was, you know, I was now doing a big Hollywood movie, so I didn't need to do this. But I'm like, hmm. Short film for my church shot on my friend's farm twenty minutes from my house in Illinois. Like that feels like a really small loaf and a small fish, but Hey, it's not my job to worry about these things anymore. I'm going to do it. Right. And I remember while I was doing it, I just felt so much. I felt so much like I was in my wheelhouse. I felt joy. I felt I didn't feel the kind of pressure and stress that I normally do when I'm making movies. And I was like, I feel like there's something here. And at the same time, I was binge watching shows, um, you know, great shows, uh, you know, and I was realizing that Like one of the things that's so great about shows is you can go from episode to episode, season to season, and you really fall in love with the characters and you can really go deeper into the stories in a way you can't in a ninety minute, ninety minute film. And Jesus movies and miniseries, I've seen all of them and they all feel crammed in like you're trying to cover so much ground in a short amount of time. And you're just going miracle to miracle, Bible verse to Bible verse. You never get any kind of emotional connection. And they always feel very distant and formal. I thought, man, a multi-season Jesus show, that would be really amazing. And I could explore these stories like I am the birth of Christ. Because in twenty minutes in this short film about the birth of Christ, I feel like I'm exploring more And I've ever explored or seen in, in a, in a, in the nativity. And very long story short, this streaming company saw the short film, freaked out, heard my idea, freaked out, said, we want to do this. I got really excited. They said, we think the money should be raised through crowdfunding. And I got, and then I got really depressed. And I'm like. We love you so much. Just. Yeah. Bring us everything you own. Right. Right. Exactly. And, and commit to doing that thing that you see on Facebook where someone is trying to raise money for some little project. Yep. And the bar never- Tell all your friends to help. Right, and the bar never seems to quite reach the end, like the goal. Right. And uh, and the all-time crowdfunding record was 5.7 million dollars from projects like Mystery Science Theater 3000, which you guys are Minnesota folks, so you might- We know about that project. And, um, and, and there was another project that I'm blanking on the name of right now, but, um, that we're Had big fan bases and, you know, big, and I'm like, this is a project, a season of a, of a TV show about Jesus set in the first century requires millions of dollars. I just thought it was a ridiculous idea, but loaves and fishes, man, like not my job to, to worry about that. And, um, fast forward to, you know, half a year later, my wife and I are sitting at the computer and the number reaches $10 million. Um, Shattering the all-time crowdfunding record, 19,000 people around the world watched, well, millions of people watched the short film because we put the short film about the birth of Christ out on social media. And I just told people, look, if you want to see this feature film, um, you can, uh, I'm sorry, this, this, uh, show based on this short film and kind of, it kind of extends the short film, um, you can invest. And I remember, um, the, the, the short film went viral and even though it started with our Facebook page, which had like 200 followers because it was mostly our friends and family. And it just grew and grew and grew. And so finally we hit the $10 million mark, shattering the all-time crowdfunding record. And my wife and I are looking at this computer and she looks at me and there's tears streaming on her face. And she says, I do impossible math. And God, like again, the second sledgehammer was just saying, that's what I meant by that, by that phrase. And that phrase has been Like, we actually have an LLC called Impossible Math LLC, um, because, uh, which isn't necessarily the most attractive name for investors. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Hey guys, sign up for this. Yeah, exactly. But, but we have embraced this, this concept because it's what led to even a year ago, a little over a year ago, We decided to make the show completely free. The whole first season of The Chosen, when the pandemic hit, we said, let's make it free for a couple weeks just as a goodwill gesture because people are home. They're looking for hope. This thing is... All over the world and some people are losing their jobs. They can't afford to purchase a show like this. Um, let's just make it free for three weeks. And. And we'll lose money because streaming costs money as you guys no doubt know, but we'll lose money, but, but it'll be worth it. It'll be a goodwill gesture. And then maybe also people will discover the show and then they'll start spreading the word about it. And the day that we made it free, our income quadrupled. And the next day it quintupled. And, um, because people were, we, we made it, we, we gave them this opportunity. We say, look, you don't have to pay for the show, but if you want to, you can pay it forward, which allows us to, to, to give it free to people all over the world. And so a week into it, you know, when we, our income was quadrupling, Amanda was like, uh, yeah, I do impossible math. Remember? Um, yeah, we're doing it. It's free from now on. I'm like decision made. So the show has been free from then on. And we're, we've been, Shattering records in the shows in every country in the world and it's translated into fifty languages and season two is out. It's just been going Psycho. And, um, I think it's, it's just really for me, I know this was a very, very long answer to your question, but for me, it's a, like, it's, it's just completely. Destroyed any of my own sense of self-absorption. I mean, I think I struggled with narcissism leading up to this. I think I struggled with control. I struggled with, um, wanting to feeling an obligation To earn, not God's favor, but to earn impact. And now it's like, my job is solely to make the best loaves and fish that I can. Five and two. When I hand them to God, he deems them acceptable. The transaction is over. Like, I'm, my part is done. Now, to be clear, I still have that part. That's what's so cool about Jesus on, when he was here on earth and God today, he's still part, we still participate in it. Um, some people, I think, go too far and go, hey, God does everything. I'm just going to wake up in the morning, put my hands out and, and just say, God, whatever you want, you do. He does want us to participate. He does want us to provide the five, the initial five loaves and two fish. He does ask us to roll the stone away when he, when he, uh, brings Lazarus out of the, of the tomb. Um, you know, he, we, we are participating in that. Um, but the results, the, the, the impact, the multiplication, um, it's not my job to worry about that. And so if God takes the show away at any, at any moment, that's perfectly fine with me. I, I, I'm doing my part of the loaves and fish. Well, um, we have a lot of people listening around the world who are, are passionate. There are a lot of them are artists. A lot of them want to make a difference. Um, but I think that, that what can happen is we, we get stuck. Following the patterns of the world around us, or we think that this is the only way that it can work. If I'm a band, these are the things I have to do. If I'm a filmmaker, these are the things I have to do. And God kind of in a roundabout way led you to a phrase I hear you use that was used in the show, you know, get used to different. I've heard you say that. And what's cool about it is it's almost like God kind of You know, you went down that conventional path and it didn't really work. And, but then God led you to this path that was just so much better than anything you could possibly have imagined. And I wonder if you could speak more to the idea of Christians liberating themselves from conventionality and from these routes that might not only prevent them from being, you know, used, but also might corrupt them in the process to some degree. Can you explain the Just the freedom that you found in getting used to different and in approaching all of it from a completely unconventional way. Yeah. In episode seven of season one, Jesus calls Matthew, the tax collector to follow him. And Simon Peter says, Rushes to jesus and in our episode and says what are you doing like this guy? I mean tax collectors were loathed and hated and Were betrayers of their people and even jesus spoke of tax collectors and in negative terms and Jesus says, well, you were surprised when I chose you as well. Why are you so shocked now? And Simon's like, well, I'm not a text collector. This is different. Jesus says, get used to different. And I remember when I wrote that line, it felt like a line, like, granted to me from the heavens. And I thought, this line not only sums up this moment, it sums up Jesus's ministry. And it sums up everything we need to, we need to do. Um, and I think that there's this, there's this piece of it for the chosen and I think there's this piece of it for all of us as believers And for, for those who aren't believers who maybe are on the fence and who are, I think, I think that phrase get used to different applies the moment that you surrender your life to Christ is you go. I, there are still certain principles that do apply, you know, there's still rules of music and there's still rules of filmmaking that apply, uh, that are the basics that a lot of them I believe are God created. I mean, I think music is a God created. Art form that is beautiful and I think there are certain things in creation that are, that kind of provide the foundation of anything that we do. However, there is this piece that if we get too stuck In the rigidity of, of the past or the rigidity of what we think we know or what we think we should know or whatever, it, it, um, it really does, it really can become an idol. And we become dependent on that. And I, I believe that we have to start with this Okay, God, um, the thing that we can't account for, that there's no, there's nowhere in the budget for this, but it's worth more than anything else that we can do is your hand on something, your anointing of something, your blessing on, on the choices that we make. And let's get that first. Let's seek God in the major decisions that we make and go, okay, this path that I'm about to take, Are you behind it? And it's a hard thing to sometimes quantify, but I do believe that we can pursue that. I think we can be surrendered every day and we can be saying to God, okay, not your will, not mine. Less of me, more of you. If we take that posture, in addition to, or alongside of, or maybe in front of, The normal things we're doing to educate ourselves to become better, um, filmmakers or better musicians or whatever it is, then That is a, that is a life altering posture. Um, and it really becomes a superpower because you, you stop caring. About what the world thinks of you. I mean, every day, every single day on this project on the chosen, I'm called publicly by somebody, a Harris, a heretic, a blasphemer, false prophet, uh, whatever it is. Um, it's, it's a minority of people, but it's still measurable. Um, And I genuinely don't care. And then every day I'm also called by some people, a genius, I've changed your life. People sometimes come up to me and say, You know, thank you so much. You've, you've changed my entire family's life. You brought me closer to Jesus. They'll start crying all this stuff. And I, I hope this comes across the right way. I'm not motivated by that either. Um, I genuinely solely only want to be motivated by making sure that my five loaves and two fish at the risk of sounding cheesy are acceptable to God. And when you get to that place where that is your primary focus and you don't care about likes on social media, you don't care about sales of your album, you don't care about who, how many people show up at your, at your concerts. You're just focused on making sure that your song is beautiful and acceptable and pleasing in your sight, oh Lord, my strength and my redeemer. It really is like a freeing concept. And David, I do want to say this, all jokes aside, I do believe that you have Set an example in that. I remember when you spoke in chapel at Northwestern over twenty-five years ago. I remember that that seemed to be your operating principle too. That you just didn't seem to care About, um, traditional, uh, definitions of success or impact. You, you, you were like, don't, don't pay attention to how it's normally done. That just doesn't matter. Um, and so I, I, I thank you for, for that. And you've shown that in your ministry throughout the years too. It just took me a really long time to get there. Well, you know, I think one of the things that you're saying Dallas is we, we talked to a lot of, like Ben said, a lot of artists. And we'll say to a guitarist, what if for every hour that you spend working on your craft, you know, on your instrument, you spent another hour seeking God? You know, what would happen then? You know, and it's like, you know, I, I'm sure you work very hard. There's no way that you can put together the kind of films that you are. And do you write due to the screenplay as well? Yeah, myself and two other guys, we write all the scripts. Yeah, I mean, that is huge. I mean, and so the amount of work that that requires and focus is unbelievable. But then for you to marry that with I'm just giving my five loaves and my two fish. And it's not like you're giving, you're giving the best fish you can give, right? And the best loaves. Yeah. I mean, you're, you're not, you're not, you're working hard. But your understanding is, that's it. I've succeeded. And like you were saying, when praise and criticism affects you the same way, you're there. You know what I mean? Because it's one of the things that can really hurt you now is the acclaim that you're receiving. And you have to really protect your heart, you know? So that there's a no stage you can't be on, you know, if God wants you to be on there, right? Because I think it glorifies God to say, Give me a bigger platform for you. I mean, how many people are making films today that are unapologetically Talking about Jesus and the fact that he's allowed you to do it in a way that you can really get into the emotion of it. I mean, that's one of the things that I've really. When I, you know, I've watched The Chosen and I've seen the way that you've been able to show the tenderness of Jesus in a way that I've not thought about it before and just the, I mean, it's amazing. And I think this could be such an example for so many who, like you were saying, have tried to follow, do it another way. And because of that, they're not free to give these five loaves and these two fish. And I think it's awesome. Really. Yeah. And I think, um, it applies to multiple parts of this project, the way that we're distributing it, the way that it's being financed, the way that, um, the content itself, as you mentioned, um, it really is freeing and, Um, I, I can't, I obviously, you can never promise that if you just, if you just give things over to God that you're going to end up having a show that You know, does what the chosen has done. But I was giving this same message. I was telling this same story and sharing the joy and the freedom that I felt, um, Before the season one was even written. I mean, I remember I was asked to speak at a film conference, Christian film conference, um, about five months after the resurrection of Gavin Stone had come out. And I, I got up, I was a keynote speaker in front of, you know, 600, 700 people. And I got up and I go, look, I don't have anything to tell you about how to make movies. Um, because, and how to be successful because I'm not successful. Like right now I'm coming off of a huge failure, but I'll tell you something. I feel better and more joyful and more free than I've ever felt in my life. And here's, here's why. And I told the story that I told you. And it was so cool because, um, I, I was sharing with them. I was saying, look, I'm about to do this little short film for my church. It feels really small, but look, I'm just, I just want to give it to my church. I want to give it to God. That's all I care about right now. And I don't know the future. And it's perfectly OK. I didn't even talk about The Chosen because The Chosen didn't even exist yet. It was just the short film that I was doing. And then it was so cool to be able to come back two years later to that same conference. And, and now the show was, was blowing up and I was able to say, remember when I spoke to you two years ago, uh, I don't want you to think that now my message is different because it's because the show is quote unquote successful. The message is the same and you heard me when I was still when I was still struggling, and I still didn't even know how I was going to have a future. And that's the key is you can't get you just have to genuinely get to that posture of. If this succeeds, quote unquote, if it feeds 5,000 that's great, but it doesn't need to for me to feel like my, my offering to God was what he wanted from me. Well, and again, that's because you, you peel past all of those layers of deception that's so cling to us that. Even in that process of pursuing, you know, that, that goal of yours that, that it really is satisfying only to just know Jesus, to have the intimacy with him, to offer him what you have. It's we can still hold on subconsciously like yes, but right. Yes, I'll do that if it leads to X because you were saying that doesn't necessarily mean your project, your band is going to blow up. But the beauty is it doesn't have to. The beauty is that's not what makes it beautiful. That's not what makes it satisfying. It's just so hard, isn't it, to rid ourselves of that external validation and to say, Oh, I hear you. I hear you. And maybe I'll try this because that'll be my method to get. It's just an alternate route. Yeah. And, and yet I think what you're saying and what I am so wanting to also internalize is. Whether that happens or not, you found a freedom that's detached from those things. And that's the most beautiful gift of all. Yeah. And it takes, it does require time. I think when I look back on the, in the years leading up to this, when the chosen hit, um, God was preparing me in many ways. I mean, I had had a, this may sound totally off subject, but I think it does fit in. I've had off and on struggles with pornography for, you know, twenty-five years, you know, not, uh, never to the point of needing rehab or anything like that, but, but, but enough of a struggle that it impacted my marriage at times. And, and I, and, and when, when I had a relapse. Um, a few years ago, probably about, you know, six, seven years ago. Um, I realized that the root cause of it was narcissism, you know, self-focus, self-absorption. And so I really went after it. I thought, oh, You know, it's not enough for me to put protections on my computer and to have accountability on that stuff because ultimately that doesn't protect you when when you have a weak moment and I thought I really need to get at the root cause and so I start I really went after What I believe the root cause was which was a sense of narcissism and so I got counseling and I started reading books and I and one of the main things that I did was I replaced my fleshly And I'm not just talking about lust. I'm talking about, you know, any time that I was seeking affirmation, because I think that's in the same ballpark. You're seeking affirmation. You're seeking, you know, we use the term online humble bragging, where you see people posting online Like, I'm so grateful and so humbled to be, to receive this nomination for this award or, you know, whatever it is. Um, or you bring up, you know, like David just a few minutes ago asked, you know, mentioned writing the scripts. Do I write the scripts? There was a time where if David would have said something like, um, I'm sure your, your writers do a great job writing. I would have tried to find a way to fit in the fact that I co-write it. Yeah, to clarify that. You know, I would have figured out some subtle way to do it, you know, and um, but I, every time that I started to have this urge to ask for a compliment or to, to, to some sort of thing that was self-affirming, I would replace it with scripture. Um, I, you know, my, my, my, my counselor gave me, you know, all these scriptures that were about finding your worth in Christ and finding your identity in Christ and, and Make changing your desires and it over time it really did work like it really did become you have to replace your habits You have to replace your your desires and so that when that moment came When I really was faced with it, where I was faced with a failure and I was devastated. I'm going, oh man, I've failed. And, and, and I guess I'm not. You know, I guess God wasn't in this. Then God will speak to that hole in your heart. And he will go, now Dallas is exactly where I want him. And now he's ready for this new way of thinking of things and it really did. So it's something you have to really pursue. And, and when it, when it clicks now, I'm not, it's, you know, look, I'm not saying that I'll never struggle with these kinds of things again, but I mean, it does become, it is a life altering thing. You be, you become new, you know, your body becomes new wineskin. Um, and, and it, it, your, your desires really do change and it is a superpower. How much, uh, cause I, man, I, I definitely, it's rare for me to feel like I can relate with a guest as much as I've been able to find my own story in pretty much every aspect of your failures. And, uh, and it's kind of, I'd rather in the exact same way you're talking about narcissism and wanting to find, you know, actually I write this, you know, like David, excuse me. Um, I'd rather find myself in all the winnings of the stories because that's way sexier and way more fun to talk about. But it certainly isn't very honoring to God to pretend. And so how much for you, Dallas, has the... That kind of like becoming free of people pleasing or people seeking like, like attention seeking for, for the acclaim or, or the, uh, Whatever it is, recognition of man, how much of that do you feel was tied to the narcissism, the like, that getting at the root of the The, you know, what was driving a desire for porn and all that? I don't know. Did you feel there was a connection or two totally different things? No, no, it's 100%. It's, it's, it's again, the, the, the gratification of self. Um, and you know, I think you, you've, you've found that people who've had, there are some people who've had Uh, vice issues, whether it's, I mean, it doesn't have to be lust or pornography. It can be gambling or, or, or gluttony or anything. Um, but it usually, I, I've found that it's rooted in self absorption, self gratification. Um, And a, um, cause, cause a lot, for a lot of people, especially me, I mean, I, I've been in a, in a happy, sexy, exciting marriage for, for, you know, over twenty years. And I still, um, Felt like, you know, I think my, my, my flesh still desired affirmation and it just became my, you know, I think my idol and. So over time as that was being stripped away from me because I was replacing my habits. And then of course I have a huge failure in the show. And now that was like the death blow, the death blow of, of the ego, the death blow of the narcissism was the failure of that movie. And then this guy responding to God's call to tell me, you know, just focus on the loaves and fish. And that, that was the picture, the visual picture Um, that, that I think in many ways saved, saved my soul. Uh, you know, obviously not, not in the conversion way. I was already a believer, but I think it really, um, I guess maybe you could say it changed my soul, changed my flesh, changed my, my desires. And, uh, and it truly became, um, a new thing for me. And, and my wife was also, when we were developing The Chosen, like I was writing the scripts with my, with my co-writers and, and, and the money was coming in and we were raising You know, we were developing season one. Amanda kept getting pushed by God into the Old Testament in her quiet time. And she's like, God just keeps pushing me into Exodus and into the Kings, you know, the, the, The, the minor prophets and the major, she was like, and the story of the, the, the Kings. And she said, man, every time God is pushing me into these stories, it's about success. And the dangers of success. And she's like, I don't know what God is telling me, but I feel like he's really warning me against success or at least the trappings of it. And so even leading up to When season one came out, because we still at this point, don't we just because we had this crowdfunding record, that doesn't mean the show is going to be successful. People still need to watch it and buy it and share it and all that stuff. And she God was just really hammering her like beware of the results of success as though to say success is coming and you better be on your knees throughout all of it because the biggest problems that Our heroes of the faith had was when they reached earthly success. And so I feel like we've just had this constant and my wife has a constant accountability for me. That as the show has gotten to where it's getting and, and the praise is coming on a daily basis now. Um, and the money and the, the, the impact is coming. I genuinely don't care. Um, and that's, I don't mean that to sound flippant. I care about the impact. I, every time someone says my life has changed or I'm being drawn closer to Jesus or a guy like David Pierce, who's known Jesus for a long time is saying there's things about Jesus I haven't thought about that I'm now. Learning because of your show. Um, that's beautiful to hear, but I really, I'm not responsible for that. I really don't. I really, that's not just a platitude. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny, Dallas. It's kind of like you, you're in a place where you think, No matter what happens, if Jesus takes his hand off of me for a second, I'm dead, right? You know, and that's always, that's always, you know, um. Like I'll, I'll, I'll have someone say something nice to me like you're saying. And then I, it's encouraging and you go, thank you. I appreciate that. But then in my head I go, but Jesus, I know this. If you take your hand off of me for a second, I'm dead. Well, in Psalm twenty-three um, you know, I've read this, I've been reading this book that's just incredible. It's about a shepherd, I don't remember the exact title, a shepherd, uh, Shepherd talks about Psalm twenty-three or a shepherd. It's a classic book. There's a chapter that I just read a couple weeks ago about, um, A felled sheep, like when a sheep even is, it could be perfectly healthy and eating good food and the shepherd could be taking good care of it. If the sheep shifts wrong while it's lying down and ends up on its back, It can die within a couple hours and shepherds have to maintain this constant vigilance over the sheep because at any moment even a healthy sheep can die within a couple hours if it if it just Shifts wrong and now it's on its back. And God just really drilled into that. A shepherd looks at Psalm twenty-three That's it. Yeah, I see you pulling that up. Shepherd looks at Psalm twenty-three but it just, that was another sledgehammer to me of like Dallas, stay vigilant. And, and, and because at any moment, like you just said, David, God takes your hand off you for a second. Um, or I think the better way to look at it is if we, if God has his hand on us and we, we turn over, we move away from him or we fall, turn over onto our back so that his hand can't be on our head. Right. We, this can all come crashing down in a heartbeat. Yeah. And, uh, so I have to maintain that, that, that surrender to the shepherd at all times. Yeah, and I think it's just a, you know, just reminding yourself of why things are happening. Don't forget it. You know, so that you can have as big a platform as God wants you to have, right? Yeah. You know, I think he wants you, he wants, he wants you to have even a, a, a bigger platform, but he wants you to have that humility and that right, uh, that right sense of not caring. Like you're talking about, you know, you just want to give your five loaves and your two fish. And if he doesn't want me to, I mean, he, I don't think like, I think he wants a bigger platform for some people sometimes, but he doesn't need me. He doesn't need the show to do his work. Right. I think he's using it right now, but like, I am perfectly content if, if, if God goes, all right, this is, this is as much as I want out of this show or as much as I want out of you. Uh, and at any moment he could take it all away. I mean, I've been part of ministries. I've known pastors. I've known churches. I mean, I'm, I'm part of a church. That had, uh, you know, struggles just a couple years ago significantly. And I've seen pastors, their entire ministries collapse. Um, and that, uh, Ministries that were impactful, that were bringing people to Christ. And I think one of the things that oftentimes keeps ministries or pastors from accepting some of the struggles or maybe some new direction is they go, yeah, but there's there's There's success happening right now. There's impact. So it's working. And that I think sometimes we can, we're capable of having a sense of entitlement Like, well, because this is working, clearly God wants us to keep doing it this way or God wants us to grow. And so we're going to make this decision to accelerate it even more. And whatever that may be, I do think that we're capable of becoming Entitled. And, uh, God may, God could take the chosen away at any moment. Um, or he could give it to somebody else at any moment. And I'm, uh, it would be difficult. Uh, and I would, I would have a hard time with it, but I, I, At this moment, I just have to maintain this posture of it's not mine. Uh, the, the, the, the, the increase, the multiplication, the feeding of the 5,000 is not my responsibility. Yeah. And what I love about what you're saying is that, you know, we can, someone with artistic ambitions or just wanting to do something with her life can, can think, okay, well, I need to now do what he's done. And the beauty of what you're saying is. We all have, well, we all have what we need to offer. Like it's, it's simple and it's, it's for all of us and, and it's not about, okay, now I need to emulate this success or this is going to validate me. It's. It's, it's offered what you have and it's trust that that's enough and it's a beauty in, in being content in your relationship with, with Jesus and watching him do something extraordinary and, Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put you on the spot here because I have so many other questions, but I don't think it makes sense to launch into them now. So we need to have you back if you'd be willing. I want it. There's just... My brain's spinning, so I don't know. You can just say, yeah, I'd love to come back and we can try to do that some other time. Um, but. Or, or you could just, you could say that and then just ghost Later, you know, it's fine too. No worries. I do unfortunately have to go here in a minute or two, but I, but I definitely want to come back. I, I, I'd love to talk more about it. I, I, Especially once I, I don't know how I missed the connection, but not, but, uh, I really love what you guys do. And, um, I think I just was focused on the name of the podcast, provoke and inspire, and I just didn't connect it to Steiger and to David. Next. Next time, yeah, I'll just start using David Pierce more frequently now that I realize this. Yeah, just bury your name and my name in the back. I mean, I get a little vicarious. Well, you know, there's a David Pierce who is the Christian musician, uh, singer. And I, and when I saw that name, I thought, oh, I wonder if it's him. And I looked at the picture. I went, nope, that is definitely not the other David Pierce. Um, but I just didn't make the connection. I love what you guys are doing. And I love, I mean, you guys, um, are, you know, you guys take it to the streets. I feel like you've always been kind of this ministry that, that grinds and, and, Uh, is willing to do the difficult things for the gospel and say the difficult things. And I think that's what The Chosen really is all about. Um. I agree. So cool. When you watch The Chosen, um, you, you see the, the, The stained glass windows are removed. It's not this beautiful tapestry of smoothness and Jesus is not wearing a white robe with a blue sash that Um, because everything's clean and the disciples aren't these, um, just happy, you know, the moment they got called, everything was better. I mean, we really tried to show you, uh, this was painful. Uh, it was challenging. It was, there was not a lot of money involved. There was a lot of struggle involved. Um, Jesus did not promise a relief from struggle. Uh, everything about it was different and unique. And, uh, uh, upset the apple cart. And with the increased fame, like that's what season two is all about. Jesus's fame is increasing rapidly. And with that comes people who want to be healed and redeemed, which is great. But then with that comes tons of opposition and then inner tension. And you see even in episode three in particular of this season, you see the disciples wrestling with all this, like, wait a minute. How come he's not leading a fight against the Romans? Wait a minute. How, how do we handle all these people? They want things. And how do we give it? And wait a minute. You're not supposed to be here. You're a tax collector. And you know, wait a minute. I don't, I don't like you necessarily. And I have to, I have to do ministry with you for the next couple of years. Um, it, it really isn't pretty. And, and you guys, uh, that's what I've always admired about your ministry is you guys don't really seem to give a crap about whether it's pretty or fun or not. We're definitely not pretty, Dallas, and we appreciate that whenever we hear it. No, thank you so much. This has been amazing. Again, I feel kind of sheepish even telling people, make sure you check out The Chosen. Well, duh. Uh, if you haven't already, check it out. Is this the best place? Like, is it the watch.angelstudios.com? Is that where people should go? The easiest thing to remember is the chosen dot TV, www.chosen.tv. But the easiest thing, and for Uh, is just to go to get the app and because you, you go to wherever you get your apps, like on, you know, the app store or Google play, it downloads to your phone within thirty seconds. And then it connects directly free and easy to your streaming device. So go, you know, Roku, Apple TV, Fire Stick, Chromecast, uh, doesn't require an email address, a sign up, not a dime, anything. You can just be watching it on your TV within a couple minutes of downloading the app. Uh, yeah, I don't want to warn people with a bunch of information. It's easy. It's easy to find, but you can be watching the show within a couple minutes. Totally free. How can we, how can we pray for you as we wrap up here? Well, right now I don't, um, You know, we're moving to Texas in just a week or so. And that's really, um. Where in Texas? Just outside of Dallas. That's where we're going to be. That's where we do the majority of our filming. And, um, just right now, I think there's just a lot of, the show is really. You know, I don't, I'm, I'm not a victim, but the show is, is, is, is a burden in many ways because, um, you know, now we have to feed the beast and my family and I are moving to Texas. We're trying, my co-writers are coming into town tonight. We're spending the next two days really focused on season three. Meanwhile, the season finale of season two, I don't know when our conversation right now is going to be But, um, Sunday, July 11th is the season finale, big live global live stream, um, for season two. I mean, there's just a lot going on. And I think the enemy is really like, um, You know, whether it's actors, whether it's crew members, whether it's our move, whether it's trying to build these sets, we call it the chosen curse. I mean, everything we do. Yeah, we know about that. Tends to be blocked in some way or emotions or egos or whatever get in the way. And, um, we call them, we also call it Red Sea moments, which is where, you know, the Israelites were running from the Egyptians. They get to the edge of the Red Sea and then they're just stuck. And the enemy is coming in on him and so I'm learning to be okay with those Red Sea moments because Oftentimes at the last minute, God parts the waters just so you know that it's him and not you, but there's still not any fun. That moment when the Egyptians are coming, it is stressful and I just want to maintain that posture. Right now because it's weighing heavily on us for sure. Yeah, whenever we go on tour, we call it the season of mystery illnesses and broken down vehicles because it's just, it comes hard and fast. It's as predictable as the sun. It's just, it's extraordinary how it works. Yeah, we want Paul's miracles, just not the riots. We don't want the challenge. Ben, I'm going to pull a Ben Pierce. David, can you please pray for Dallas to close us up? Because I feel like that'd be so appropriate. Lord, thank you for Dallas, Lord. And I thank you for the way that you have spoken to him and how he has heard you and how you've taken these five loaves and these two fish and you are multiplying them. And Lord, I pray that you would put your angels around him. Around the writers, around the crew, around the actors, everyone, Lord. That you would just... He wouldn't have to have so many Red Sea moments, Lord, that you would just... Just help him, Lord. I pray that this next series will be the most powerful yet, Lord. Give him new insights, new ways of depicting You, Lord Jesus, thank you for the way that, um, you have, you've given him this revelation of, of who he is and, and And I pray that no level of success or criticism will have any harm on him. I pray you'd put like a force field around him and his family. Around the crew and everyone that is involved with this project and let it be, Lord, very fruitful for your kingdom because people need to know the truth about you. Thank you, Lord Jesus, that your hand is on him. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen. Thank you, brothers. Thank you. All right. Thanks, Dallas. Thanks, Dallas. Well, there you go, fellas. That was, uh, that was sick. We're still, we're still live streaming for those who are still with us. Thank you. Wow. Dallas was great. That was a, that was, that was a fun conversation. So this will come out in about, I don't know, like a week. Uh, so keep, uh, I don't know, keep your eyes out for that. Share it with family members and foes alike. Right, Chad? Yeah, exactly. I was thinking mostly with foes though. That'd be better. Yeah. Mostly with foes. Your family's already seen it. Now share with the foes. I got the sound bites back. I don't know which button this will be, but here we go. That's a pretty good one. Peace. Thanks for listening to the provoke and inspire podcast. To listen to past episodes, search provoke and inspire on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever podcasts are found. See you next time.