Why Christians Stay Silent at the Office - Workplace Evangelism Expert Bradley McCoy

We have this whole phrase about bringing our authentic self to work, and I feel like the Christians are the only ones who are like bringing just part of it, like everyone else is like the wildest things, right? I'm like, I can't believe they just said that in a meeting. But like, as a Christian, we're like, oh, I don't think I can tell them if you're a follower of Jesus, you gotta be the person who's taking the first step in building relationships. He designed us body, soul, and spirit to live this way. And when we do. You're listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. Most followers of Jesus live two separate lives. There's the church version, and then there's the version that shows up to work on Monday. Bradley McCoy has spent over two decades at Target Corporate trying to close that gap, and he shares critical insight as to why we often struggle to share our faith at work and why sometimes it falls flat when we do, and how we can be bold and relevant in the workplace context. We also talk about what to do when our companies demand things of us that our faith simply will not allow for. And what stands we have to be willing to take. I'm sure this conversation will encourage and equip you to follow Jesus more faithfully in a broken world. As we were saying before this started, I think so many followers of Jesus, they feel this disconnect between their work life and then their faith. And both are so important to them. And you are someone who has spent decades now at the intersection of the two. And so the most basic question here is, what have you learned about bringing these two things together? I would say one, thanks for having me on, Ben. I could talk about this topic all day, every day. Uh, being at target for twenty two years now and have learned a ton. I would say the biggest thing is we overcomplicate it as followers of Jesus. Like we make it this huge deal that people are going to be offended. I don't like even some Christians are like, I don't think we're allowed to do that. Like, can I actually be like vocal about my faith? And it's like, I think I'll get in trouble with HR or maybe even the government says that I, you know, it's like, no, like you being your authentic self, if you follow Jesus is a lot more easier to like, express when you're just real and honest about it. And so at target, we have this whole like phrase about bringing our authentic self to work. And I feel like the Christians are the only ones who are like bringing this part of it. Like everyone else is like the wildest things, right? I'm like, I can't believe they just said that in a meeting. But like, as a Christian, we're like, oh, I don't think I can tell him. I don't think I can share that. I follow Jesus and it's just wild. Like, and I've met so many people who aren't followers of Jesus and they're like, that's cool. Bradley. Tell me more. Like you're going to Tajikistan on a global team. Like, what does that mean? And you get to basically share the love of Jesus with people. And oftentimes we like compartmentalize it. It's like, okay, well, I do that. Like I go to River Valley. So I'll do that on Wednesdays and Sundays at River Valley. But like. And maybe with my small group, but like, I don't want people to look at me differently at work and like, what does that mean? And actually, we're being disingenuous when we do that. And people are actually like seeking the exact thing that we have, like at work. Because if you think about it, the whole everywhere we are all the cubes, all the zoom rooms, people are broken and they're going through life and they're hurting and they're looking for hope and they're looking for answers. And when we aren't genuine with our faith, we're literally like the old school, like Sunday school song, like we're hiding under a bushel. Our light for Jesus. Like it's, it's hidden. And when we're not like some of my favorite moments at work, and the reason I've stayed at target for almost twenty three years is helping with the Christian network and genuinely having these moments where someone's like, would you mind praying for me? Um, and you know, someone who, who's has just found out a cancer diagnosis or their kid. They've just lost one of their kids. And me. Not sharing that I'm a Christian totally takes away a lifeline to say, like, you believe in prayer. Can you please like, like, pray for me? I don't know what else to do. And I would say in a secular context of target, like people often don't have like, they're like, and now I'm without hope and now I don't know what to do next. And if we don't, if we're not honest about who, who, who, whose we are in Christ, it becomes really challenging. And but when we go, yeah, I'm a Christian, I believe that power of prayer is like changes your life and God's changed my life. And just matter of fact about it. You don't have to be thumping your Bible around and putting a big cross. Like one of my coworkers who's not a Christian, like, gave me a big cross to put on my desk and I'm like, thank you. Like, great, like, and I was like, I, that's not who I like. I just want my life to be a reflection of who Jesus is. I don't need to like, like, yes, most people will come and drop off a prayer request or ask for prayer at the. Q but, um, it's just we make it way harder than it is. And the simple, simple things that we find comfort in and following Jesus other people are looking for. And when we're literally, when we're having a rough day and are honest about it and say, I'm praying, you know, that God changes my what's happening and I'm drawing closer to him. Or you've you had a great Sunday, but you're not willing to talk about it. You know, in your cubicle, like you've cut off part of who you are and then life becomes a little more disingenuous. Yeah. It feels like so much of the practical quote, making it as simple as you say is lost in the extremes, right? Like you said, we don't want to be the Bible thumping guy, the big cross in our cubicle guy. So then we do nothing. Yeah. So practically, what is that middle ground? What does that look like for someone who's listening going, Amen. I'm sick of the subtleties and the silence. I'm sick of. I definitely don't want to be the Ned Flanders of my cubicle. So what? What is the middle ground look like? Yeah, I would say the most important thing is daily living out your faith. So if you are doing a quiet time or you're getting into the presence of God, let that overflow in your workplace. If you aren't doing that, it's I'm sorry, but it's going to be a challenge. Like if you're not getting filled up with the Holy Spirit and it's just a cultural thing where it's like, I'm a conservative Christian and I want everyone to be like me. Oh, that's gonna be a rough like conversation. But if you're genuine, like, hey, I spent quiet time this morning and like Minneapolis, as you know, has gone through a lot. And target is headquartered in Minneapolis. I'm live from the target Plaza right here. And like, we've had like a lot of rough seasons over the last few years. And people literally have been desperate, like broken, like just hearts shattered. And when I think about like the moments where it's just like the Holy Spirit can totally show up if I just pivot and go, hey, I'm willing to share of the hope that I have. And, and I have it to give away. And I think that's the biggest thing is a lot of people are very passionate about their political positions or where they're at there. But if you genuinely have that relationship with Jesus and you're getting filled up every day, I believe our job is to give it away and you're just overflowing, right? And if the Holy Spirit's overflowing, then all of a sudden when you walk into target, you're not just going to a job like you're on mission with Jesus. And it's like, okay, like I know my cube neighbor, their wife was just diagnosed with cancer. I know my cube neighbor that their, their peer or their, their partner was laid off at target in the layoffs in October. Like that's a heavy, like they've lost half their income. And it's like when you know those things and you can care just like you would at church. So think about that. Like if you're in your small group, if something happens, what do you do? You're texting them, you're sharing scriptures with them. You're like doing, let me bring you a meal. Like, how do I care for you? But in work, it's like, er, like you've, uh, I won't say the word pray. Like as a Christian, I see people that are Christians go, you're in my thoughts or I'm sending you good vibes. And I'm like, you literally just changed. Like, and I get it. Christians can be a little. But you. The word prayer is not like Christian exclusive to Christian faith. Like you could literally say those words and express moments of truth where you might be quoting a scripture but not putting the reference. I do that all the time and people go, wow, that just, oh, where did you get that? And these people don't believe in Jesus at all. And they're like, I'm like the Proverbs. Like, it's a pretty cool book. Like it has all this wisdom in it. And it's like, we do that for our community, our small group, but the same hurts, the same struggles are right beside us. And we're right. We're no different than them. We just happen to have received grace and are following Jesus. And wouldn't we want them to have that same opportunity? And when you realize it, you start to look on mission like, okay, I'm not just my calendar is literally seven thirty to five thirty every day, half hour, half hour, like meeting. And if I look at those meetings and go, well, what's the real intent? Like if I'm on this Zoom with my peers or with the leaders, why do you have me here? God, like, what is the real mission? That's for this time. And often like, yes, you're getting business done. And yes, you're excellent at your work because you're representing Christ. But oftentimes you are the mini pastor that's like, I know that you're I'll give you an example. My SVP, his son, was addicted to drugs and going through a hard life of addiction and wanted recovery. And he's like, I don't know where to turn, but I know you pray. Would you please pray for my son that he would get like loosened of this? And this is like my boss's boss's boss at the time. And it's like when you have those moments, you realize like the title, the money, no matter how far up you are, like you still have the hurt that you are going to walk through in this broken world. And followers of Jesus, we have the opportunity to love people really well. Embedded in everything you just said. There was two crucial things I think worth mentioning. One is that you knew a lot of information, or you seem to imply that Christians should know a lot of information. Well, that doesn't come naturally without asking, right? So it feels like a practical step a lot of people should be taking is to go beyond the weather, to go beyond the Timberwolves to go. And then the other thing that I thought was so important is your boss's boss knew that you were a person that prays. Well, that also doesn't happen accidentally. If the fact that you pray doesn't emerge naturally from your conversation. So talk to both of those practical aspects of how we can be living out our faith at work. I would say if you're a follower of Jesus, you got to be the person who's taking the first step in building relationships like that. Like if I think about the Great Commission in Matthew and Matthew, like you gotta use, you gotta talk to people. Like we don't get to opt out to be like, they'll just know. They'll just know I'm an excellent worker. They're gonna know by my fruits. No, you have to talk about it. Like you have to be open about who you are. And I think that's a journey. And for me, I had to learn and grow in it because not everyone's kind to you when they find out you're a follower of Jesus. But you look at the scripture, not a lot of people were kind to the disciples nor Jesus. Right? And so you have to be willing to say, hey, I'm going to I'm going to step out in that. And you have to be the one. Like I'm always the one that it's like, hey, like if someone says they're sick, I immediately in a slack with, you know, forty in my team, I'm praying that you're made completely well, like you're in. My wife's a nice purse. That is my response. I don't just go, I hope you feel better. I'm sending you good vibes. Like I'm taking advantage of those moments and there's nothing anyone can do about it. They might not like that you said prayer, but there's nothing wrong with what you just said in that Slack channel, right? You're outing yourself as a Christian. I have a lot of conversations with leaders at target where they're like, well, I don't like what's going on. And I'm like, well, did you tell people why? Like the things stir are stirring in you? It's because of your faith. Well, I don't want to tell people like I'm a Christian and I'm like, well, I can't help you. Like if you're not willing to out yourself, if you're not willing to go. Yes, I follow Jesus. And that's an important part of my life culturally. A lot of people will say I identify as Christian, but no, I follow him like it's the most important thing in my life that creates a whole nother, like opportunity for you. And it is hard and you have to practice. And it took me years to be like, how like, how do I actually have these conversations? Like with people where it's authentic to me and I feel comfortable. And every time I realized I was overly complicating it, I don't need to like try to force the five fundamental truths out in a conversation. I don't need to be like, I'm a Christian. Like, you know, like weirdly and awkwardly. It's just like there's moments all the time that God gives us that we can slide it in where it's like, hey, my faith would would tell you this and hey, like I'm going and like, even like the simple thing, like, what did you do this weekend? Uh, softball, if you're going to church, like, right? Softball, if you just went on a, on a global team. So I would say practice to be a person of excellence when it comes to being your go to on your team. Like Bradley, I know cares about me. Like part of target's culture foundational element is care grow in like caring for people. And as a Christian, we should care for people better than anyone, right? How do we make the fact that we're a follower of Jesus, a natural part of what comes out of us. And I think, again, not to go all the way back to the beginning, but you did say something so vital, which is that ultimately you can't give what you don't have. And so this begins with a genuine intimacy with Jesus, an overflow of the Holy Spirit, because you're not going to be willing to sacrifice or pay the cost of something that you just culturally ascribe to. And speaking of that, what do you do? Or how do you speak to people for whom there is a real cost? I mean, what do you do when you're the values of the company? You know, the companies pretend to be sort of amoral or neutral morally, but they're not, right. They have agendas. They have their own worldview. What happens when, despite the claims of universal tolerance, there's very much a worldview agenda being forced upon you. What do you say to people who find themselves in that predicament, where their values are being contradicted by the company they work for? This is where I'm incredibly passionate. Like so like I border on like, okay, is ministry where I should be going full time. Like, and I've been at target for twenty three years. And I would say, if you love Jesus and are being filled up and are like passionate about your faith in that environment, you are on mission. That's the mind. If you don't have that mindset, you will never survive that pressure. You will never be able to like it's every day in your face. But when you realize I am a light in a really dark place, just like at I go to River Valley, we focus so much on sending people all around the world. It's a five hundred. And I'm like, for us, it's the exact same thing in the marketplace. If you're going to go halfway around the world, if I'm going to go into the target towers, where I would say the vast majority of people, I would say probably ninety plus percent don't align to like any faith, like the faith that I hold, how do I show up and be on mission and realize that I don't have to have the same values, but I can bring light into a dark place just like a missionary would do. Just like a person in missions would do. And so if I realize that, then I'm going to show up and be like, yes, there might be some people might not like me. I the most common question I get and I like know how to respond now, people would be like, are you one of those born again Christians like you already know, in the way they're asking? Like, it's not like they're not trying to like, actually know, like it's a very like, like, and so I have to be wise and be like, I'm not for sure what you mean by born again Christian, like your version of this, but I love Jesus and I'm following his teachings and I want to exemplify his life through my life. And so it's like, how do we do that in a way where even when it's really dark and you might have pressure that you can still show up and be like, this is my mission. I might had a rough day. Like someone might tell me off or be like, you're a colonizer. You're this like, you white man, you don't know any like I've had all those conversations, and you can't let that rub you the wrong way. Like it has to be like, hey, I'm gonna take some hits and not everyone's gonna like me. Not everyone liked Jesus nor the disciples. And, um, and the crazy thing is at target, it's actually been people that espoused to be Christians who would be my hardest conversations that I have, uh, which is really interesting. So a lot of, I know there are companies where there's pressure at target. I have always felt like, hey, there's a space for you. You can live out your authentic Christian walk. And it's often the Christians who have given me the hardest time leading the Christian network, where they have their own ideological wanting target to be Christian. And it's like, I it's been so messy in those conversations. But the people who aren't Christians, they're like, I think it's great. You're an authentic self, Bradley. If you want to throw up a prayer for me, great. I hope it works. You know, like, and you have those conversations and then you have like Christians that are like, oh, if they don't believe what I believe about these five, you know, doctrinal stances, that is where it gets a little more rough. Uh, to have some of those conversations. But the biggest thing is realize you're on mission. Like, don't take things personally every single time. Like if they did it to Jesus, like, do you think you're better than what you Jesus is like, if they despised him, if they rejected him, like you're gonna have some. And like the, the stuff that we get in the US in a corporate setting, guys, you can figure it out. You can make it through. Like I think about when I go on global teams where people are literally giving up their life and their entire family, like I can have someone say words to me and be okay. I can have someone not like me and not include me in a meeting and I'm still okay, like I. God has given me the Holy Spirit to walk through those rubs and I think all of us. I'm not special. can have that authority and the power of the Holy Spirit to be confident in that and say, you know what? I don't hold it against you like you don't know the truth. You don't know the Jesus I do. And like, I'm sorry you feel that way. And I always, I always end like, like, hey, I love you and I hope you have a great day. Like no matter what people say to me. And it really just irks people. Like, I'm never going to be like, you're mean. I can't stand, you know, like, how do you, how do you just exhibit the, the fruits of the spirit, which aren't very evident in much of today's corporate world, so vital that reframing of your role in life as a missionary. And I think we have created this picture of a missionary that's, you know, in Africa or in Asia or somewhere, and it looks a very certain way. And while of course there is that and that's vital, we need to continue to do that. This idea of having a missionary mindset, not expecting to be universally loved, but being motivated by love nonetheless, right? That's the thing. You don't come in like a soldier in a hostile territory. You come in knowing it's going to be hard. You're going to have to make some sacrifices. You're not necessarily going to be universally liked. You've got to really look for opportunities and be wise and be shrewd, but also be bold. So much of it seems to be down to, like you said, I am a missionary. It might not look the way I thought it did, but that's exactly what it is. Yeah. And I would say some of the people I've had the hardest conversations with, I've got the closest to that are the polar opposite of my worldview. Like we like, if they're genuine and truly want to have a relationship and work through like what the oh my goodness, I have had people from all dimensions at target that you would think, wow, that's completely opposite of Christianity. We invited into our wedding and they all showed up, and they were some of the most generous people with us because we had a genuine relationship where we're challenging each other, going like, I actually don't believe what you believe about that. And are you okay if I tell you why? And opening up those doors. And when you have a genuine like if once they know you care about them, like you genuinely see them as a human and like they might not agree with you, but created in God's image. Like that's, that's the value you put on them. Then it's like, okay, well, I don't believe that. Bradley, but seems like you legitimately care about me as a human being. I want to continue this conversation. And those have been my favorite. Like I have such good, I would say friends. Some of them are following Jesus now. Some of them it's like, hey, we're still on a journey together. And we'll just, we'll see what it looks like. How much of it do you think is a mindset as it relates to evangelism that I think has been maybe promoted by a view of evangelism that I maybe go on the streets and I encounter strangers and I got this one shot. And so I've got to kind of approach them with this method or this thing. And to me, that is a vastly different context than a person you may sit next to for five ten years. How much of that, in a way allows you to, yes, need to continue to be bold and clear, but also it means you might really need to focus on letting them know you care. You want to be in their life and they can be in yours, because that's then going to create the authority for you to actually speak into their life when they need it. Hey, real quick, if Provoke and inspire means something to you, could you do me a favor? Think of one person in your life who needs to hear this conversation. Send them this episode. Tell them why I hate you. That's it. That's how this thing grows. One curious person at a time. It would mean the world to me if you did that. All right, back to the conversation. Yeah, we all have our sphere of influence. And I, I think about on my prayer list, like I have my team that reports to me. I have my boss, I have my peers, and in my quiet time, I'm constantly praying for them that that they that they would succeed in their roles, they would be blessed and most importantly, that they would like have a clear understanding of who they are and who they have been created to be. And when you have that care for someone that you genuinely like, that's just like I would pray and fight for my family, like and be on their side. When you do that, all of a sudden it's like, okay, like my mind, like when I approach them and when I speak to them, it is in a lens of deep care. And I think that's where we have to like, we can't be like, I pray for the people in my small group. I pray for the like people in my church that are on the prayer list. It's like, no, like you spend more time with that cube neighbor way more than you do with the one the guy on Sunday morning. Like they're there. You're going to see them all the time and you have to. It takes energy and effort, like to build relationships. It's not just a it's going to happen. Um, and so going out of your way to be the person who opens the doors and makes people feel comfortable and welcome. And I think Christians should be the most successful people on their team. Like if you're putting up a front and you're not genuine, like if you're not accessible, like, ah, like it's just, so where are people gonna go? Like if you aren't the kind, if you aren't exhibiting the fruits of the spirit, you're gentle maybe when you should be, they're expecting you to be rough with them. Like you're kind and loving. You have patience. Like when I like, if we exhibit those things, people then are like, oh, I can trust this guy. Like, I'm gonna let him in. I'm gonna, I'm gonna start talking about more than the Timberwolves and, and that it's snowing outside again. Yeah, yeah. That's, that's so incredibly profound. How much do you find that a lot of maybe the dormant or nominal faith that people wrestle with or struggle with is because of the disintegration, like how much I can just see in you the energy and passion that seeing your faith activate outside of the church breathes so much life for you in church, right? That that it becomes this beautiful cycle because you're like, whoa, this stuff is, this stuff is real. I got, I got to know God more because I want to bring him outside of the church more. How much of this is so much the key to people's faith becoming alive, because they can start to see it as a whole thing? I will say like, I'll get so excited like I am with you, or I'm like, oh, you're a Christian. And then I'll find out they don't even like follow haven't opened their Bible. Like maybe you've gone, but they're like, I'm a Christian. And I'm like, oh, like, come with me to like small group, like it's on our floor. And it's like, oh, no, actually, I'm not that kind of a Christian. Like, you know, like you're just and you're like, okay. And so it's one hundred percent this. Like, do you believe that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead and that he has the power to transform everyone's life? And if you believe it, amazing. Step into it. And if you don't, it's fine. Like that is a cultural like I identify just like you might identify as Hispanic, identify you identify as Christian, but it's just a cultural thing. It's not a faith thing. It's not a spiritual element to your life. It's just I culturally, maybe, you know, get a ham at Easter and, you know, go to Christmas service. So have you found yourself in a situation where your values have been threatened in a literal way, where you've been forced in some ways to be complicit with something that you just don't agree with? I don't know, you know, I'm sure things around Pride Month or just in general. Yeah. Or certainly I'm sure you're dealing with people who are dealing with this all the time. I know I speak to people all the time who are like, oh, I have to go to Dei training. I got to do pronouns. Like, what do I, what do you say to people who are wrestling with what they feel are a company that is that is challenging their, their Christian values and they don't know how to react to that. Yeah, I would say what, what's your bottom line? Because like, we can get offended at a lot of things and then we espouse it as our our faith. But really it just rubs us the wrong way. And oftentimes it aligns to our culture or our politics. But when it does cross the line. So when it does say like me working on this, or even me having this conversation about like, I believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven, like that statement alone is really controversial and it will divide, right? And it's like, okay, well, I don't believe that. Well, I do believe that. And I've had many people that have worked on various marketing campaigns where it's had like, am I just going to like, not say anything and just keep trotting away? And I have had some incredible folks who've been really bold and it's like, okay, let's like, we, we talk about everyone wanting to feel comfortable at target and like work, like, feel like they're included and that it's not going against their values. And so if that's the case, like, do you want to have a conversation with your manager? And I've had this probably a half dozen times. And it's bringing up like, hey, I would prefer to work on a different campaign. Is there an opportunity for me to do X, Y, and Z? And every time. Sure. No problem. And it's having the boldness to like, you don't even need to go in depth, like take this stand of like theologically. These are the five reasons I disagree with this marketing campaign. But it's saying like, hey, like this. And then oftentimes it's led to other conversations that are maybe more of a one on one. Like you're not having that in a broad team meeting where it's like, I'm taking the stand. You're all wrong. Like, no, but you'll say, hey, I, I would prefer to work on something else. And then one on one having those conversations. It's cool because you can give context, you can show your heart where you're going, but like throwing that out in a Slack or sending an email to everyone. I'm not working on this. Like probably isn't like the right move. And so for me, like working through some of those things, whether it's personally or helping to coach people. It's like making sure you're doing it in a way where you can have the context and that you can have those more genuine, intimate conversations. And people realize there's a lot of different perspectives. And, um, they're not always like, not everyone's like, oh, great. Cool. You might have some harder conversations, but at the end of the day, like I think about the scripture where God's going to give you the words to say, if you step out in boldness and you speak what's on your heart in truth, I've never seen God let any of us down like Jesus leads the way. And it's been pretty cool. Um, but I think oftentimes, Ben, like ninety nine percent of the time, we don't even have those conversations. So like the fact that, oh, they're gonna, they did this and they shut it down and they're going to close this down and kick us out of the corporation like that. Really. I haven't heard of very many of those conversations. The sentiment could be there. The frustration is definitely there. But it's like they don't even go to the like as Christians, we aren't even going to the next step to like engage with it. But we stay in our like, like boiling room. And I've talked to a lot of executive leaders that target that have gotten like super mad at some of our positioning. And it's like, where are you going to talk to anyone? Like, what do you what do you want to do about it? Like where, where are your thoughts? Where is your heart? And it's like a lot of people just keep that in this, like they're spinning and like, ah, and it's like, well, what I always challenge, like, what is the root of why you're getting upset? And if you have never shared your faith with anyone at the office, I would start there before this is your entry point into your person of faith. I'm sorry, but like, and that often is the case, like the very first time you're trying to have a conversation about faith is you complaining about their position on something. And as you know at Steiger, that's not going to ever be a way to build relationship with someone. No, no, you look at Jesus and he just modeled Seeing people, making them feel loved. He led with compassion. He was firm on truth, but he led with compassion. That said, do you think there is a case, and I'm sure you've dealt with cases where you simply cannot continue, or you have to take a stand where the company you're with, the policies that they're enacting, the projects that they're working on. It's not enough to simply say, can I be put on a different end of the project? Is there a time or a place where you just have to be willing to pay whatever cost needs to be paid? Say you're the person who has been bold with their faith, but now you find yourself where things are just getting to a point where you can't, in good conscience, continue. Yeah. I would say if you're genuine, like because I have two lanes, I almost think about it. If you're genuinely caring and loving for your team and pastoring them and you rise up to that situation, you can totally go like, hey, I, I can no longer be at this company. And I've seen that happen in the past. But if you are literally just instigating and I have, this is my biggest pain point like that I deal with at target where culturally you're so upset, but you've never shared your faith, you've never been a pastor to anyone. I'm sorry, but that's not going to deal. I'm making a stand. I'm quitting target. And I'm like, you've never talked to Jesus about anyone, ever. And your role here at target and now you're quitting because of Jesus. I'm sorry, but that's a cop out and not right. And that I've dealt with that more than the genuine pastor heart that has had to quit because they're convicted about it. So that would be my guidance is like, I spend so many conversations of people making these big stance and I go, well, how are you? Like, tell me like, how do you share your faith? I haven't, I'm really ticked off that they're doing this and I can't be at this company anymore. And I'm like, hey, that feels really not what Jesus would do. Like he would have conversations, he would enter in versus like these grandiose stands. And so I said, if someone and I've had this goes through and they're genuinely caring and loving, and that company is like, we don't want that. I one hundred percent agree, Ben. Like there's been times where say, hey, I'm going to have to put in my resignation like this goes against my convictions. But if you're just doing that and have never shared Jesus like, and this is the common thing that happens that's on you. And that's like, are you culturally just upset or are you genuinely bringing that as a heart of like, I've reached an impasse? Like I cannot represent what this company stands for? And I think that I've seen, but it's been rare. And I would say in most corporate settings, um, but yeah, I would, I would say you just have to know which path you're going down. And there are instances where you have to say, sorry, it just crosses my line. Like I cannot work for a company that doesn't align and is anti to the values that I hold. Um, and yes, you can. But if you go take that mission's lens, like you know that there's already going to be some anti things. Um, what is what is that line. And you need to be really clear on that line. And it can't just be like, hey, I've decided to get offended today. I'm out. Which commonly happens in, in our settings in corporate America. Mhm. And it seems like the only Christian recourse today is boycott and outrage and canceling. You know, we, we, we cry when we're the victims of cancellation. And then we are the equally the perpetrators of cancellation on our end. And, you know, again, the phrase in the cliche I like to use is people know what we're against, but they do. They know if we're for or anything. And, you know, I look at Daniel in the Bible, like, I think it's such a powerful example of someone who had clear convictions, but he showed honor and respect. He worked within the system. He he enacted God's will within a very corrupt. I mean, Babylon would not have been a, you know, as it was pretty corrupt, right? I'm sure there was a lot of policies and and things that he was against, but he, he, you know, he had the water and the vegetables. He, but he continued to serve and be faithful. God blessed that. But there were those lines, right? Like the idol, he wasn't going to bow down before the statue. So that to me is a good example of, of working within the world, but honoring Jesus in the process and being honest. I think there's a lot of people who are really nice Christians, but they never bleed into truth. Um, they don't talk about the things because they're nervous to like cross some of those lines. And I would say you have to like, you cannot just be the nice person and agree with everything you have to say. Well, I actually believe that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. And you don't come to the father by any other means that's offensive and like, but are you willing to have those conversations and do it in love? And if you do, and you're having that and people, great. And you need to make a stand. But if you're not, that's where I think it really challenges you to stretch in your growth. I'm not just kind to people, but I'm actually going to say I disagree with how you're living that out. I don't I'm not aligned to that. And that's where especially when you have those those relationships you establish, you talk about why. And oftentimes people are actually open, like interesting, like, I actually like you, you don't agree with how I live my life do this. Why? And then because why wouldn't you be loving if you agreed with me? And you're like, actually, it's not loving to agree with you. It's loving to tell you the truth about what I think in this situation. And I think that's where it's, it's where we grow and get stretched because you can be super nice and kind and the nice guy who prays, but then you got to still stand for truth and integrity. And that's when some of those like conflicts might come around. And your work where you have to decide like where, where is the line going to be drawn? And like, has it crossed that line? Um, but yeah, I think there's so much room for grace in the marketplace. Uh, And I think the fear of like, they're gonna just get rid of me and everything's anti me is more what the enemy uses for us not to actually step out versus like the risk of you're fired. I think that is a smaller risk. It's just the fear of having those conversations. And I think shout out to Steiger, like you can't have them if you don't have a relationship, like with people. And so it's like having that same mentality. If you were, you know, in your twenties doing a missions trip or, you know, right out of school, you bring that into the workplace and look at that. It works with people in their thirties, forties, fifties, sixties. It's not just for young adults. So. Right. And the word persecution is thrown out there, but I mean, in reality, and I feel this in how you communicate. It's like, I mean, come on. Really. Like, so much of it is just it's, it's just fictionalized. It's what we do not face real legitimate persecution in this country. And even as it relates to interpersonal relationships, there was a phrase this. I was in a prayer time and this girl in the prayer time said something that just has been ringing in my head for years since, which is, Lord, don't let me say no for people. And so often I feel like we, we just assume, oh, they don't want to know. They don't care. They don't need it. They're fine. Everything's okay. And everything I feel from you is that, man, people are desperate to know they need people to care. And we got to not say no for them. Yeah. And they might not agree with you, and that's fine. Like I've had the best conversations. Like I've had. People are like, I don't like, I'm not on board with the Jesus, but wow. Like if, if you're representing him, I like it like you. It's like, whoa, like God's going to work through this. It's not in his timing. But if we're not genuinely just putting ourselves out there, that's where it all starts. And when we do, it's cool. Like the stories that I get to hear every day, Like we have about two thousand five hundred people in the Christian network at target, and now we have about seventy and now eighty organizations that are connected to living faith at work. I'm like, this is awesome. Like someone was healed. Like someone found peace that had never their whole life had been full of anxiety. And then all of a sudden they, they find God and it's like, whoa, I didn't know I could even live this way. And you hear people like, I prayed over Zoom for someone or I prayed for the first time out loud. Like, those are all things that I just get so encouraged. Like, God, if we just open the door and just live our lives like he's asked us to, all of a sudden you get to live like an exciting, like it doesn't have to be a boring. Like I'm in my cube again, running the same spreadsheets. Like just like a missionary would go halfway around the world. You can have that same vigor of like, I wonder who God has for me today? Who's he bringing in my path? Dude, that's so awesome. That's so awesome. And just what I feel is that, you know, I don't I don't obviously know you very well, but the sense I get is that there's this exuberance in you. And when when first Peter three fifteen talks about be prepared to answer the hope that is in you. I think we so often forget that it says hope. It doesn't say, be prepared to answer the good knowledge or the perfect answers, or the right politics or the moral behavior. Doesn't say any of that. It says, be prepared to defend the hope. And I, I just think, man, if we are authentic and creative and interesting and care and interested and real, yes, are we going to need to be bold and get over our. We're going to have to sometimes, like you said, lead and be the one that. Start the conversation and ask the questions. But I think if we're doing it right, we'll probably get asked a lot more than we do right now. Hundred percent, man, we just we that's got to be there. That's got to be real, isn't it? It's how we are designed to live like God. He designed us body, soul and spirit to live this way. And when we do, we live like the Bible says, this life of abundance, like filling up like we're overflowing. The Bible describes it as. And I'm, I have this practical example. I'm wearing a boot right now because I injured myself at a lifetime fitness class and I was on crutches. And when I wasn't using my leg, it was getting swollen and like bloated. And I was like, ooh, like, what is going on in my leg? I started walking on it again, like doing what it was intended to do. And that swelling went right down. The blood flow went right back in. And I think it's the same thing as Christians, like when we're living with how we're designed to be made, like when we're sharing our faith and being kind and loving and like being that mini pastor, guess what? You're going to be full of joy. You're going to be happy like your life when you come home. At the end of the day, it's like, oh my goodness, I have so much work to do. And I got to create another PowerPoint. And like, it's all about the work. It's like, no, God has you on a mission. And if you are actually focused on the people, you would be like, I get to be with the executives tomorrow, and who knows what door God will open to share with these people of influence. It's a pivot in your your mindset and how you show up. But if you're not using, you're not in the the gifts. You're like my bloated foot. You're just like a grumpy, irritable claw. You know, we say we're all, you know, cog in the wheel, like anyone can say that, but you can take an accounting job, you can take whatever job and make it glorify God. It's just, are you on mission? And if you are, you get the benefit. You reap the benefit of overflowing with joy because you're you're operating in how God has intended you to. Yeah, yeah. And, and the fruit of the spirit is joy, peace, kindness, goodness, all that stuff. And so it doesn't say that the fruit of the right strategy or the fruit of the perfect job or the perfectly aligned circumstances, it says the fruit of the spirit, which means if we're connected to the vine, we have access to supernatural joy and peace that the world doesn't. And so, man, how cool is that? And then expect that to come out of you. Yeah. Expect people to recognize that because it's not just it's not just how you show up when things are good. I would imagine it's probably even more profound how you show up when life is hard, right? When you suffer and when you mess up, like when you suffer, when you mess up. And this is the the injustice. I believe the church of like the nineties and two thousand developed like you have to be a perfect Christian. Like I grew up holiness all the way very Pentecostal. And it's like not a bad thing. Like God wants us to be holy, but when you take that and act like nothing's wrong, like because of Jesus, you don't mess up anymore. You've reached perfection. Like you are completely sanctified. Like that is not the case until her with Jesus. And when you say, I've messed up, like because I do, I sometimes the fruits of the spirit are not on display on Bradley McCoy and the flesh comes out and you're short with someone, You're angry, you're frustrated. But guess what? God has grace for that, just like he does in any circumstance. And you get to go team. I messed up as a follower of Jesus. I'm supposed to be patient. And guess what? I was yesterday. The opposite of that. And I'm supposed to recognize that and ask, hey, would you guys forgive me? Sorry I didn't show up my best self. And that's like a genuine way to be like, hey, I'm not perfect. And when you try to be and this I have this conversation all the time, everyone's like, but if I say I'm a Christian, I sometimes say words that I shouldn't say, and sometimes I like do it. And they're going to say that I'm a hypocrite. And I'm like, who cares what they say? You are, you are you, are you trying to strive to get better? Right? And to lean into what God has? We are you're right. We are hypocrites. And so like when you out yourself as a Christian, guess what? When you're imperfect, that's when God gets the most glory at your at your job. Because you can say, I'm broken and I need a savior. I'm broken. And like. And when you're hurting, like when we have people that die in our lives, we aren't like, oh man, everything's fine. They're going to be in God's presence. No, you're sad, you're mourning. And God's going to be with me because I'm he's going to be with those who mourn, as the scriptures say. And we get to share that with others. Like, man, I'm devastated that my grandma passed. My heart's broken, and I'm really sad. But I do know that there's a hope for eternity. But I'm bawling my eyes out right now. Right. And it's in that. But if we don't show that and we try to be like, everything's great when we're Christians, like we got we got our lives put together. No one is attracted to that. Like it's the, it's like, get away. Like, that's not real. Um, and so when we can, we can learn how to live out our brokenness and authentic ways. Wow. Like, even if people aren't Christians, people are attracted to it. They, they want to befriend you. They want to be in your life when you're genuine about that. Back to your alignment with the design. Profound point is that part of the human condition is that intuitively, we recognize that we are broken, and yet we intuitively feel that we should still be lovable and receive grace nonetheless. And nothing in this world does that. Nothing in this world sees you and loves you. It only loves you to the extent that it actually doesn't see you. It doesn't see the flaws. And so we hide because of that. But as you said, as followers of Jesus, we have access to this ridiculous paradox, which is I am fully seen by Jesus in all of my stuff and he still loves me anyway. And that allows me to hide the least. I should be the most unafraid of criticism and the quickest to apologize in a genuine way. Because while I am called to grow, my worth is not in my growth and the world. It's the opposite. It's the meritocracy, man. You are the front that you put on and man. For Christians to put that burden on themselves as well is ridiculous. When we should be the most liberated from that, and that should be a gift to others as they witness that in us. The blurring of cultural Christianity with authentic followers of Jesus. And that's where we have to realize and be smart on like, hey, I don't need to have that facade. I'm forgiven. And I gotta be honest about where I'm at in this, in this walk. Oh, man. Well, dude, this is this is awesome. I'm fired up. I'm grateful for all that you're doing. I want to hear a little bit more. Tell us at the end here about your, your network and this event that you're going to be having this living at Faith event in June. I would love to hear a little bit more because like I said before, we started, ninety nine point nine percent of the people listening to this are not missionaries like me, don't have. And they're just they're people in all industries, all across the cities and the world. And I know they're like sitting there going, finally a conversation just for me. So, so tell them more for sure. Can they get involved? Yeah. So living faith at work, we have lots of things to get plugged into. So we have a podcast as well. And so every week we are talking about topics that relate to how do I practically do this? And we go through like, if you want to start a small group, or how do I even talk about my faith in the workplace setting? We go deep in that. So science of subscribe, like, right? Living faith at work. We'll put the links. We'll put the links everywhere for that as well. For sure. So do that. And then we have, we are partnering with Ben and his brother Aaron, uh, for the living Faith at work conference on Friday, uh, June twelfth. And we are just pumped. We're gonna have a whole day where you get to practice. Like, what does this look like? How do I apply it? I know the session will do with you all is like, how do I actually share my faith in a secular setting? Like, what does that look like in a workplace? And then we have breakfast. We have lunch right now. We have eighty companies signed up. So you're gonna, if you're in the Twin Cities, even if you're a student, I'm like, go talk to some Christians at Target and Cargill and Best Buy. And we have you're going to be there eventually. Yeah, exactly. And build those relationships. So there will be incredible networking. Um, we're going to do a Q&A so you can submit your questions. And at the end of the day, we're going to go through all of the questions that you submit. And it's going to be a fun little live podcast. And then we have some panels that are going to happen where we have people that are working through, like, what does it look like to live their faith out at work? So we have people from room and board, from target, from UnitedHealth Group, and they're going to share their stories. We actually have a Minnesota representative who's going to share her story on how she was convicted. Like her workplace is that political arena, which I'm like, oh, I don't know how you even deal with that. And I know in Minnesota, we had some of our legislators who were murdered, and after that, she was like, I can't show up the same way. I need to share the love of Jesus with everyone, not just people that align with me. And I'm like, whoa, girl, you gotta share that. Like, that is, if you can do that there, you can do that anywhere place because that's such a like, hi. And so we're gonna have some really unique perspectives on workplaces. So whether you're in the corporate setting, like me, My wife's coming. She's a nurse practitioner in healthcare. We have a ton of entrepreneurs coming. I would say join it and just invest the day. If you're serious about like, hey, Bradley, I actually want to get better and more genuine at living my faith at work come from eight to three on Friday, June twelfth. It's going to be amazing. It's going to be a fun day. You're going to be pumped up, inspired, encouraged. And we're going to give resources away as well. And it's going to be an incredible day together. Great. Well, Bradley, I'm encouraged, man. Thank you for doing what you're doing. I love the body of Christ. I love the diversity of the gifts and callings and passions. We need it all. And I'm glad you're out there, and I'm glad I can point people to what you're doing and any small way that we can contribute to it. I'm grateful to do it. So thanks, man. Thanks, Ben. Yeah, it's going to be a fun day. We'll see you on June twelfth. All right. Peace.

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