What Are We Getting Wrong About Evangelism? | Preston Perry

What's up, everyone? This is Ben Pierce from Provoke and Inspire, and I had the privilege of interviewing Preston Perry in this episode. He is a poet, author, teacher, apologist, and evangelist from the South Side Of Chicago. People are also familiar with his wife, Jackie Hilperry, and together, they form a formidable team of thinkers and thought leaders and evangelists and just all around amazing people. And in this particular conversation, I talked to Preston about his book, How to Tell the Truth, the story of how God saved me to win hearts, not just arguments.

Guys, you are going to love this conversation. Preston is as real as it gets. He is not just a talker. He is a doer. He is someone who has devoted himself to sharing the gospel in hard places with hard people, and you are going to be inspired by this conversation.

We talked about what evangelism looks like, what it isn't, what we've gotten wrong about it, and how if we properly understand it, we can find ourselves inspired to be part of God's great commission in this way. So check out this entire episode. You will love it. I promise. As always, this podcast is part of Steiger, a worldwide missions organization doing that exact thing, telling those outside of the church about Jesus.

That's why this conversation was so easy because we are like two kindred spirits talking about things we care most about. Steiger is a missions organization that needs your involvement. If we're going to start a new Jesus movement, it's not gonna take a few cool specialists. It's gonna take all of us, ordinary people like me and like you. We all gotta get involved.

If you go to steiger.org, steiger.0rg, you can find out more about the mission and what you can do to step in and get involved. Lastly, look. If this podcast encourages you, if it's something that you have valued in your faith journey, all I will ever ask is that you share it with somebody else. Just let somebody know, a friend, a neighbor, a coworker, someone you go to church with. Say, hey.

So please consider sharing it. That would mean the world to me. Otherwise, that's it. I hope you enjoy this awesome interview with Preston Perry. You're listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast.

Alright. Well, here we are. We're making this work. This is great. You're not the first to be doing an interview in the car, and I like the vibe.

Thanks so much for being on the Provoke and Inspire podcast. Well, thank you for having me, man. It's an honor. I appreciate it. Appreciate it a lot.

Yeah. No worries. Hey. The last time I did an interview with someone in the car, it was Brian Head from Korn, and he was actually driving and talking at the same time. So this is a little bit more low key.

I love it, man. You know you know? And it fits it it fits, you know, my personality in a lot of ways. You know? I'm always on the go, and it which is the reason why I'm a I'm an evangelist.

And so I'm I'm not cooped up in all places. I'm just not. You know? That's just how God made me. And so I appreciate when somebody can, you know, cannot be mad at the unprofessionalism.

You know? I appreciate it, man. So we're we're gonna talk about your book. As I was saying before we started, our hearts are very much aligned. I really believe that telling people about Jesus is one of the more profound blessings that we get to experience as followers of Jesus.

For sure. But it's a challenging subject. You know, it should be like politics, religion, and evangelism should be the three things you don't talk about because everyone kinda gets tense. Yeah. Kinda like tithing.

They get tense when you talk about evangelism. Yeah. So how did you stumble into this subject and make it so much part of who you are and what you're trying to tell people about? Well, man, you know, I think I have a temptation to go directly to when I became a Christian, which my book talks about how I was led to to Christ by a guy named Gary who was an evangelist. But I think my story actually starts way before then.

Growing up, you know, I grew up, you know, on the South Side Of Chicago in a community called Roseland, and it was just a just a melting pot of different ideologies, worldviews, religions. And even though I wasn't a Christian, even though I didn't grow up in a Christian home, even though I didn't grow up in Christian environments, I was a very inquisitive kid. And I think about the sovereignty of the Lord and how the Lord strategically places us in the areas, in the in the communities that he wants us to be on be in. And, you know, I think I wanna just encourage everybody to to know that, man, what god has placed you, your your story actually starts there way before you even come to the knowledge of Christ, that god strategically places us in a in in in communities and in, you know, areas where, you know, the natural giftings can be cultivated in us. And so for me, being a very inquisitive kid growing up around Hebrew Israelites and Moors and Kemet, these are all black religions, and then the nation of Islam, and then we had Jehovah's Witnesses.

And then later on, we had Mormons, and then we had later on, we had you know? You know? And so so, like, I just was always an inquisitive kid that asked questions, and I saw that that, you know, serves me later on when I gave my life to Christ. A guy named Gary Brown who was an evangelist, took me under his wing and discipled me for a couple of years. And through Gary's life, I ended up giving my life to Jesus.

And so I think with all of that, my background, how I grew up, where I grew up at, being and then me being led to the Lord through the life of an evangelist, I think evangelism just became second nature. It just became like a very instinctive thing for me. I didn't fight to do it, you know, and I think that's a a a lot of the evidence of how we know God has called us to do something. I remember my wife who's a great bible teacher said that when she first became a Christian, she just had this, like, this this instinctive urge to just teach whether it was her friends, whether it was her, you know, coworkers. And I think the same thing can be said for me for through evangelism.

And so I think a lot of it is sovereignty, and I think that a lot of it is just God's wiring. The the whole conversation about calling is an interesting one. Right? Because there's nuance in that. Yeah.

Right? Because for sure, I look at someone like you, and you're clearly called and uniquely gifted to be an evangelist. And yet some are called to, you know, to hospitality, generosity, teaching, all these other things. And yet to be a whole faithful, obedient follower of Jesus, your life needs to include some elements of all of that. Right?

So how do we not fall into the ditch of going, well, I I don't need to evangelize or that doesn't need to be a part of what I do because it's not my calling. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Well, one, I think it's it's very important for us to define what calling is for the for the believer.

Right? Because I think every Christian essentially has one calling. Right? And which is that's Matthew 28. Therefore, go make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all God has commanded us.

And then, you know, Jesus tells us, behold, I'll be with you till the end of the age. And so he lets us know that he's with like, the Holy Spirit is with every believer, and every believer has one call. And that is to go, be faithful, and to produce others like yourselves. Right? Go make disciples.

I think a lot of times maybe I think sometimes we confuse calling with vocation or, you know Sure. What what it is that God has us doing in a season. This is the reason why I love the apostles Paul letter. He never says, I, the apostle Paul. Right?

He said he always says, I, Paul, an apostle of Christ. He never led with his vocation. He led with who he was. And so, you know, in one season, right, I did poetry a lot. You know?

And then in one season, I did podcast where I'm communicating the gospel through conversation with my wife. And then the other season, I did evangelism a lot. Right? And so primarily, when my ministry first started, people knew me primarily as a poet. Right?

And then podcast and now evangelism. Right? And so it changes, but the mission, the calling doesn't change. Everything that I've ever done was to make disciples. Right?

And so I I think that if we get so caught up in a calling, we might limit ourselves, and we might limit to how God wants to use us in a particular season. Right? And so every Christian has a calling and has a demand, I would even say, to make disciples of all nations. Right? And so God has poured out so many gifts onto his people.

Right? Not only do I have a gift to talk to people on the streets, but I also have a gift of creative writing. I also have a gift to write books. I also have a gift to, you know, communicate the gospel through podcasts and stuff like that. And so, like, however that's done through music or whatever, I think every Christian is called to make disciples.

And I think how that looks like changes in different seasons. But I do think that, you know, if you don't have a particular gift of evangelism, I do think that every Christian should be evangelistic, which I think might look different. Right? Because just because you're not called to do evangelism in the way that I'm called to do it, I don't think that any Christian is called to be a Christian and live a long life, you know, as a Christian and not share the gospel with anybody. Right?

Right. Maybe you're called to give the gospel to only your family members, and that's okay. Maybe you fall to give the gospel to that coworker that you've been working with for a year and a half, and she's a Muslim, and the and god just wants you to tell her or him your testimony. That's a that's evangelistic. Right?

And so, you know, I think people need to be freed up with knowing that your evangelism doesn't have to look like the evangelist that you follow. That if God has uniquely made all of us, he's gonna use us how he has uniquely made us. That if if he made us all different, our evangelism doesn't have have to look the same. Right? It does a disservice.

Right? Yeah. And so one thing that I've learned in my evangelism is, you know, I don't I don't expect my wife to do to make disciples like I make disciples because she's not made like me. Right? But I do think that evangelism is is is less about being fearless before men than it is being obedient to God.

I think it's about obedience more than it is fearlessness. When God gets our yes, whenever he wants us to be evangelistic, you know, the world will experience our boldness and the world will experience our evangelism. You address a lot of this in the book, but what do you think some of the self imposed barriers or misconceptions or just errors in approach and technique that we have been guilty of in the church that have just muddied the waters, that have complicated what evangelism is? I mean, just even off the top of my head, you you kind of alluded this to this in the beginning, but I would say one of the bigger ones, and you have, I'm sure, a big list is is narrowing evangelism to this one moment. Like, I'm on the streets, and I I, you know, I've got my gospel track.

That's evangelism as opposed to the holistic thing that it is. So what would you say are some of the things that we need to kinda reeducate ourselves on so that we can approach evangelism in a more effective way? Yeah. Yeah. Like, I I think it's so much.

I don't I don't wanna take up the whole podcast saying answering this one question. I think it's so much. One, I think when we think about evangelism, we all we automatically think that we have to go up to strangers and talk to strangers. So you have the introverted person saying, that's just not my thing. Well, listen.

That's not my wife's thing either. I I I told this story in the book. You know? I'm I'm in the airport. We're leaving Virginia.

Me and my wife, I see two Jehovah's Witnesses in the airport with a stand. You know? Me, because of the way I'm wired. Right? God has wired me and prepared me to go have conversations, hard conversations with Jehovah's Witnesses.

I know how to disarm them, all the things. My wife is a very introvert. So I said, I'm about to go speak to these Jehovah's witnesses. She she said she said, okay. I'm a have to go get us something to eat.

Peace. And she just left me. Right? I did not feel the need to be like, no. You know the gospel too.

Come along with me. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Right? But when I after I got done with the conversation with the Jehovah's Witnesses, I went to the restaurant where my wife was at at the airport, and I walk in the airport, and she has our head bowed with the waitress praying with the waitress. After the conversation, I said, how did this happen? She said, well, she asked me who I'm ordering food for. I said, my husband.

She said, where's your husband? My husband is over there talking to the Jehovah's Witnesses. And she responds and says, I used to be a Jehovah's Witness, and they excommunicated me, and I've been done with religion ever since. Yeah. Wow.

So notice how my wife did not pursue a conversation, but she didn't avoid one when God lay one on her lap. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yep.

And so and so I think we we we're we're afraid of evangelism because we think evangelism has to look like how I approached it and not how and not how god gave it to Jackie. Right? And so even though she's an introverted person, god knows how he has made her, and God gave her opportunity to do something that I pursue. I pursue those opportunities. Right?

And so God will give you the opportunities for you to be evangelistic how he has uniquely made you. So I think having this idea that your evangelism has to look one way, I think we do a disservice to how God has made us all unique. Right? I think that's the one thing that I'll say. Right?

Yeah. The next thing that I'll say is, I think a lot of times people do not want to engage in evangelism and even apologetic conversations in evangelism because we're afraid of looking like we don't know a bunch of information. We're afraid of looking like we're not equipped or not smart. And I do think that evangelism and apologetics, it is not about being the smartest. It is about being the most faithful.

Like like, God God is looking for a faithful heart, not the most knowledgeable heart. Because you can have all the knowledge in the world, but if you don't have a heart for people and a heart for God and you are faithful to him, you can't you won't be used. I used to, lead an evangelism team, with the large one of the largest, conferences in the country called the Legacy Disciple Conference. I mean, one year, I mean, we have LaCray, John Piper, Francis Chan, like, all of these great people. My past is is the one who actually, created the conference.

And the last day of the three day conference, we would go out in the community, have a outdoor concert, and then we would go out in the community and give the gospel to people. I was over I was over that team. Right? And so I was, you know, I did a I did, you know, evangelism, workshops throughout the conference. And so people who was in my in my workshop, which was a lot of people, were able to go out with me the last day and give the gospel.

Do you know all of the people that I've ever had in that in that, you know, evangelism day meeting or whatever we we we we would do? The people who gave me the most problems were people who were in seminary or who just finished seminary. Yeah. It didn't surprise me at all. Right?

Now what I'm not doing is I'm not knocking knowledge, and I'm not knocking Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Systematic theology. I'm not knocking didactic information.

All of these things are fruitful. The Bible tells us that his people perish because of a lack of knowledge. But I do think that if we find our identity in the information we know and not the God that we know, we'll treat people like projects and not image bearers. And and and I think, you know, that's what makes people ineffective in evangelism is because they're more fixated on the knowledge. And I also think focusing on knowledge makes other people afraid.

And it's like, no. You need to love people more than you love information. Yeah. And if we love people more than we love information, and if we have the gospel and if we note the gospel, you will always be able to serve people out in the streets. I think that's what I wanted people to understand with the book more than anything.

Like like, if if you know John three sixteen, if you know that Jesus has saved you, if you know that God has rescued you out of a place of darkness and brought you into his marvelous light, There is always gonna be a way for you to give the gospel to people who are in the in the world. And so don't focus on what you don't know, but be be faithful with what you do know. And so I think that's something that I'll love to stress. And then also too, I think the last thing I know I I told you this is gonna take a long time. No.

No. You're good, man. This is the heart, man. This is the heart of what we're talking about. It's good.

The the last thing that I'll say is, I think in our conversations with people, I think it's I think it's sometimes just a wrestle and it's a pull, not because we don't have the right answers, but because we don't ask the right questions. Oh, man. Yep. That's big. That's big.

And so one thing that I've learned in evangelism is that every heart has a cry. You just have to ask the right questions to hear it. Yeah. Yeah. And so we're we're not able to hear the the cries of people because we don't ask the right questions, and that's what that's the reason why we're lost in conversation.

But if you ask the right questions, people will will teach you how to serve them. They'll literally tell you what they need. And now when they tell you what they need, now you have a framework to give them. And so a lot a lot of times, we're afraid because we're looking for the right answer. We're looking for the right answer.

We're looking for the right answer. But look how Jesus did ministry. Look how Jesus Jesus always asks questions. And because he's, you know, he was fully human, but he was also fully God, he asked questions not to not because he didn't know. He asked questions for two things, to teach us how to ask good questions in our evangelism, but he also asked questions to help reveal something in in someone's heart.

Yeah. He never asked a question because he didn't know. And so how can we learn how to ask good questions? When he walked up to the woman at the well, where's your husband? She he knew she at five.

Yeah. But he was trying to reveal something to her. And so in our evangelism, how can we relieve a lot of the stress from us by asking good questions and allowing people to teach us how to serve them? And I think I think I'll stop it at there. I can give, like, four more other names.

I'll stop it at there. That's amazing because I'm, like, I'm listening to you. I'm going, oh, I should ask that question, and then you move on. I have, like, a 100,000,000 directions I could go in. I'm sorry.

Because I'm No. No. You're You don't have good questions, and I'm passionate about this. I'm sorry. No.

That's exactly my problem is that I am I am so passionate about this too. And so trying to collect my thoughts in real time here. The thing about questions, I think, is so critical. And I think part of what you said is it's more about allowing your questions to draw out that cry of their heart. So it's less about what you're necessarily imparting to them at least initially, and it's more about giving them an opportunity to almost reveal to themselves Yes.

The the substance of the questions their heart is asking, which is a crazy thing. Right? And but but even going further back than than that, like you said, you know what's always relevant? Loving somebody. That's always relevant.

People man, we got lots of places to find information, but what people don't have is people that care, that will actually listen to them. They'll actually you know, they'll care enough to ask a question and not just wait till they'll stop talking so they can start talking. Right? It's so much less about that. And I would say the other thing to your point is we just gotta get real comfortable with the words or the phrase, I don't know.

That's cool. That's alright. Yeah. But we don't have to know the answers to all of the questions that, you know, they have or that come up in the course of the conversation. If we truly love people and we ask great questions and they start to reveal even to themselves and to you what's going on in their hearts, you just honestly engage with them.

If you don't know, you don't know. And you go back, like, in your story, you know, I know initially you kinda went back to learn to to dunk on the guy, the the guy in the class. But Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But but the fueled by the right heart, there's nothing wrong with going back to learn. Right? To go back and to give good answers to tough questions. One thing that I thought was really interesting is we were talking about the whole role of calling, and I think that part of what we've done with the whole subject of evangelism is made it an individual sport when I think it's a team sport. Yeah.

Can you talk about how we're supposed to be working together? Right? How this is not supposed to just be, we we hear a TED talk at church. We feel all convicted and maybe inspired, and then we go out into the world alone. Like, even when you're describing your story of the concert and and the the gathering together and then going out, There's so much power in the momentum of doing this together.

Right? This is a team sport, don't you think? Yeah. For sure. For sure.

You know? Absolutely. You know? So not only did I lead the evangelism team for the conference, I was a part of a church in Chicago some years back called the Legacy Church. So Legacy Conference was birthed out of Legacy Church, and I was the evangelism leader at the at the at the church.

And so we were a collective of house churches throughout the city. And I led a location on the West Side, and I remember when I first started my evangelism, like, location or whatever, leading the evangelism team in my location. What I did was I brought everybody out in the streets, one night to go out and evangelize or whatever. Not because I wanted everybody to go out every week, but I wanted to know who was good and who I wanted to have stay back home in the next week. Right?

To be honest with you. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know.

I I wasn't expecting everybody to be like me. But when when I first started the church location, I wanted to see who had the gift of hospitality. I wanted to see who had the gift Right. You know, evangelism, who had the gift of teaching, yada yada yada, personality types, all of these things so that we as a church can serve the community best. And we can serve the community best if we're all walking in how we how god is uniquely made of all all of us.

Right? And so what we would do is me and a couple other guys and girls who loved evangelism, we would go out in the streets and talk. Right? And then what we would do is we would point people back to our house, which was our church. And I and and we'll say, there's people waiting for you.

That that's cooking hot dogs. That's cooking hamburgers. Go back. You know? You know?

You know? And so those people were way more comfortable with receiving Yeah. Yeah. These people than going out. Right?

Because God is gonna have some people fish, and and God is gonna have other peoples prepare the fish, and God is gonna have other people serve the fish. Right? And so everybody is not called to go out and and catch it. Right? No.

No. Some people are called to to prepare it. Some people are called to serve it. And so my wife was way better at hospitality than she was going out, but all of that is discipleship making. Yeah.

Right? We had people come to faith not because of what we did alone, but because of how Christians loved them once they came to the church. Right. You know what I'm saying? And so, like, for me, I suck at hospitality.

I I I, like, I literally suck at it. Like, my wife would be like, yo, did you offer them I'm like, oh, yeah. Yeah. I I just wanna talk to them. You know?

But it's like, no. Like, you you you have to give them clean clean pillowcases, Preston. Like, you you have to make them feel you have to make them feel at home, but I suck at that. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But it's just like, what what what good do we do we do to the people that we bring out outside from the church into the church if we don't love them well when they actually get inside of the building. Of course. And so and so this is the reason why it is a team.

Yes. Right? That God wants to use the whole body to to go out and make disciples. Right? Notice how in Matthew 28, it says, therefore, go make disciples, which means there is a process.

Correct. Right? Yeah. We wanna we wanna microwave disciples. Right?

We don't we don't we we don't wanna home cook. Like, no. It it it it lets us know that it's it's it's work that needs to be done, and that and it and the whole church needs to be involved in this work, not just the evangelist. Right. Right?

And so I I think we we have to know that, you know, we we have to be a team. It's negative in two directions if we don't get it right because if we get it wrong in this way, not only do we isolate the evangelists, when they could use the help of the body. Right? They but they're on their own kind of these kind of solo, you know, rogue door to door salesman type evangelists when really, I think in in community, it can be much stronger, and it can lead to discipleship, and it can lead to care, and it can lead to someone actually coming back and finding a community in the church. So you have that.

And then on the other end, you sort of bring the spirit of condemnation and ostracization to the rest of the body that they're never gonna be the street evangelists, but they feel like if I don't fit in that box, then I don't have a role to play. So it's kind of this double edged sword of the the negative impact it can have when we don't properly place evangelism into the larger context of a team. For me personally so I I'm not an extrovert in the in the conventional sense. I love deep conversations, but I'm terrified of starting them. And so, like, if I can get past that initial thing and so, one of the things we do in our mission is we'll do a lot of street interviews because I think they're great ways to have gospel conversations.

Right? Because, essentially, it's just asking questions. So even tomorrow, we're we're going back onto the big university in my city, University of Minnesota, and we're gonna ask all the students questions, you know, worldview questions about, you know, what's the meaning of life and, you know, what do you think of God and what's the barrier to belief and all these different things. But, man, I hate starting those conversations. So I got a friend who's my videographer who's, like, one of those weird people, probably like you, who's not terrified of that at all.

And so I say to him, I say, alright. Look. We have two roles. You start the conversation, and then I'll jump in. And and so it's like this great partnership.

And, like That's good. You know, I'm a bit more of the guy who loves the the apologetics and the the answering the tough questions, and that's not him. But, man, he's like he's like a Labrador. That guy could start a relationship with anybody. And so it's this beautiful thing that we've created where it's like, we know our roles, and it works so well together.

And I feel like so many people would be freed if they could know themselves and then surround themselves with people that are not like them. That's very similar to how my me and my wife works. You know? Very similar. Yeah.

Yeah. So, like, one of the one of the interesting things, though, in all of this, because we've talked a lot about calling, and that's fair. But evangelism is also hard. And not only is it hard, it's risky. Like, even this thing tomorrow, man, like, I'm having all the lies in my head, like, maybe I'm too busy.

Oh, maybe the weather will be bad. Maybe I shouldn't go. Like, you know, it's it's a there is a challenging element to stepping out, taking that risk, even even in confronting strangers when it's beyond my comfort zone. Where is the role even for someone maybe not called in terms of what that does to stretch their faith? You know what I mean?

Where is it where we lean into the the difficulty of doing something we're not comfortable comfortable with? Because I don't know about you, but for me, some of the greatest growth in my faith has been putting myself in positions I'm not good at. You know, like you've seen the Bible. Right? God using ill equipped people to do things that don't even make sense for them.

Where you know, to counterbalance this a little bit, where what is the role of risk taking and pushing beyond our comfort zone both for the fruit that it could produce, but also what it can do in my own life? Yeah. Yeah. One, I think that every Christian should have a prayer, and I'll and I'll and I'll even, you know, risk making it hard claim that I feel like every Christian should have this prayer with with with saying, god, allow me to love your glory more than my own comfort. I I do think that god is not calling us to be comfortable, but he's calling us to be faithful.

Yeah. I think that if we learn how to obey and learn that that if God gets our yes, then we'll actually start to love the thing that we're afraid of. Right? Because God knows what's best for us. God said he'll never put more on us than we can bear.

And we actually don't know what we are called to do. Like, the God of the universe actually knows more than us. Right? And so if he's calling you to do it, not only is he telling you to be uncomfortable at the moment, but you have to have faith to know that you won't always be uncomfortable with it. Does it make sense?

Yeah. Absolutely. Like, you'll grow to love the thing that god called you to do because he knows you more than you even know yourself. Yeah. I was terrified of public speaking.

Yeah. Literally terrified of it. Yeah. You know? I did not think that I had a gift in creative writing and think that I would be a a spoken word poetry.

You know? But my my grandmother told my mom, you know, when I was four years old that, you know, God has given her, like, a dream that that the Lord will use me in creative ways to teach people the gospel all over the world. And she told me that my whole life, even when I was getting arrested, even when I was getting in trouble. All the she just reminded me of that my whole life. You know?

And so God had a plan for me even when I didn't see it for myself. And so just trust the faithfulness of God. Trust the wisdom of God. Trust the all knowingness of God. He just knows better than us.

He just knows better. Yeah. We have similar stories. I I still can remember the first time I had to give a speech when I was 13, and it was the most embarrassing, humiliating, terrifying experience. And if you would have told that 13 year old kid that that's what I do now, that I I speak in churches and in front of lots of people, I would have I definitely would not have believed you.

So, no, I can I can relate? One of the favorite quotes that from the book, and you already you already mentioned it, was that every heart is a cry, and I'm so convinced of this. I'm so convinced that there is this spiritual longing and hunger inside of every human being that's part of how they were made. And whether someone acknowledges the source of that longing, whether they've found the source of it or not, that that doesn't mean it's not there. In fact, I know it's there, and it's why we talked about asking great questions to unlock it.

What in your mind are the cries on people's hearts right now? Like, what are what are the things that are really people are really wrestling with? And as you have these conversations, what are you finding again and again that that people are really burdened by, and and how can we use that to point people to Jesus? Yeah. I think people are really hurt by the church.

K. Yeah. I think people are really hurt by the the church. I mean, you have people in the who are in the African American context who feels like the church doesn't care about what, you know, black people go through as a people. Yeah.

And so you have that aspect of, like, man, like, you know, in in African American communities, I'll often get, you know, I can't listen to you because how can you do church with people who don't care about you as a person? So I have to break down that wall of hostility and those lies. Yeah. You know, and let them know they know God's people is a diverse group of people, and, you know, don't let these, you know, certain religions and, you know, like like, teach you lies about all of God's people that isn't true. Right?

And so I think but you have you have just, you know, other people who are just hurt by, you know, how the church has failed them. They have this misconception about the church that the church is abusive and that because the church is abusive abusive. A lot of people think that God is abusive. And so, you know, you have people who are afraid. You know?

It's not just mere rebellion that makes people reject God, but, you know, I think people and the enemy, the devil, has convinced people that God is this moral monster, that God doesn't care about people. Right? And so I that's the reason why I think that they need to see Christians display a truth, but at the same time, a grace to them that they didn't see in the past. And so I think a lot of our evangelism has to be with has to be done with correcting a lot of the the wrong mistreatment that maybe they experience and a lot of bad church experiences or bad Christians. So I think a lot of people have hurt from the church.

I think that when we can start restoring, you know, the image of God's people, I think people will give God a better a second chance. You know? And so a lot of a lot of times, people reject God because they've been hurt by his people. Right. And so a lot of pea a lot of people won't even accept God if they don't if they don't see his people, you know, walking in the love of Christ.

Right. And then I just think that, you know, a lot of people, they they they're just cool on God. They they just are rebellious people, and we all have this innate, you know, inclination to be our own god. We we wanna be our own god. We wanna be the author of our own faith.

And so you got a lot of people out there who are just attacking god's church because they don't wanna attack god. So it's just a it's just a cover up. Like, you just you really hate god. Right? But you you you you it's it's more convenient.

It's like as a matter of fact, every Christian that I knew that became an atheist, it first started off with them attacking the church, attacking the church, attacking the church. Because they didn't wanna just come out. They didn't have a curse to come out and say, I don't I I don't wanna rock with God anymore. God makes me feel uncomfortable. God makes me give up the the things that I I I don't wanna give up.

And so I'll it's more convenient to attack his people, you know, so I can be cool in the things of God. And I think that's also a cry. It's like you you you you're struggling with loving your aisles more than God, and you're trying to escape guilt. Right? Because you don't wanna feel guilty, but in a lot of ways, you are guilty.

And so how can Christians meet them with truth, but also an empathy that says, man, we all struggle with loving idols more than we love God. How can I help you see this this flaw in your heart? And how how can I help you work through it? Right? How can I help you see that God is actually better than the idols that you want?

Right? Yeah. So I think that's that's the I think those are some of the the the deepest cries in people's heart. People who reject the church because, God and the church because of the way the way Christians treated them, and people who are just cool on God just because they love their idols more more than they love God. One of the challenges I think we face today is this this distrust of institutional religion because of a lot of what you said, hurt, hypocrisy of of believers.

But there is what I would from my perception and from the studies I've read and looking around, there seems to be a rise in interest in spirituality. So you have this weird mix, right, where it's like, no. The whole God thing institution. No. You don't need to name it.

Don't need to define it. Don't give me the church of the past. But spirituality, yeah, that's cool. Like, whatever you wanna believe, whatever. It's this kind of vague spirituality.

I've been really on this mission to try to come up with great answers to that one because I'm running into that one again and again and again. How would you if you're coming up to me on the streets and you say, you're you're asking good questions, we start to get in a cool gospel conversation, and I stop you and say, yeah. That's cool. You you're into God and Jesus in the Bible, but I'm into some sort of higher power, but that's as far as I'm willing to go. What what do you say to me?

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. That's a very good question. Well, one, you know, I've I've had these conversations many times with agnostics, atheists, new age religions Right.

People. Like and and and, essentially, what it is is a syncretism. It's this merging of different ideologies, religions, worldviews, and saying, you know, almost like the monk religion to say if we can pull from Christianity, we could pull from Buddhism. We can and we don't have to we don't have to have a a a certain god that we follow only. Right?

But Jesus lets us know that I'm the way, the truth, and the life, that no man comes to the father except by me. Right? And what's crazy is a lot of these people who who dibble and dabble in all of these religions, most of all of these religions, whether it's the monk religion, whether that's Jehovah's Witnesses, whether that's, you know, Hebrew Israelism, whether that's, you know, Mormonism, they all point to Jesus. But when we look in the scripture, we see that Jesus says he doesn't point to any of them. He doesn't point to any of these religions.

He points to himself. And so, like like, one, why wouldn't you just look to the one who says he's the only way, right, instead of looking to all these other ways. Right? Like, Jesus says, I'm the way, the truth, and the life, that no man comes to the father except by me. So he says he's the only way, and all of these other religions says, you know, there there there's many ways.

And this is like, no. Like, you know, they all point to Jesus, and he says he's the only way. Trust in him. Right? But then also too, you know, I I hear this I hear this this saying often, and I I I think I hear way more now, that I'm not a religious person, that I'm I'm just spiritual.

Yes. Yes. And I even hear from Christians, you know, that I'm not and I and I don't think that we understand how faulty that claim is because religion is not inherently evil. Religion is not bad at all. You know?

Jesus says in in the scriptures that my religion is pure and undefiled before the lord. Right? That god is not against religion, but he is against legalism. And I think a lot of times we confuse religion with legalism, and we're trying to throw away from all the legalistic ways we saw religion used. And I think it's a danger even when Christians use this phrase because when we go out in the world, like like you said, we see that the that the new age religion or people from the new age religion who worship the moon and the rocks and and the start.

They'll say I'm religious. And so what you're I'm I'm spiritual, I mean. What they're essentially saying is I wanna do spiritual things that would give me an excuse to not serve one god who tells me to submit my my desires, my life to him. Right? And so they so but in actuality, we're all spiritual people.

But what religion does, religion gives us a guideline to know how we can serve the real god. Right. Right? So religion is is, is is is a system with practices, teachings, worship, and, and, laws. Right?

And so, like, and so, like, how can we know the right God to to serve if we don't have a religion that tells us this is the right God. Right. This is the right God. This God tells us to honor him and him alone. Right?

And so he's not telling us to be legalistic, but he is giving us a religion that is pure. Now what the Pharisees did was the Pharisees came and they and they defiled religion. They put rules in in in in, on God's pure religion. Right? And they and they distorted it.

They distorted it in a way that I think in in throughout history has made people stray away from religion and to just be floating up in the air and just saying I'm a spiritual person. But this is like, no. Like, how can we be faithful in our religion while at the same time serving other people? And I do think and so I I do think that if we if we distinguish the two, I'd I'd I do think that there's a difference. And so I I would I would tell the person who's just spiritual.

It's like, how do you know that your god is the is the right god? Like, how, like, how do you how do you have real evidence that you're serving the the god of the universe if you don't know who that who who that god is? Right. If there's one god, there's only one truth. Right?

And if there is one truth, how can you make a moral justification for anything that you claim? Right? Mhmm. I have a meaningful justification for anything that I claim is morally right because I know the God that I serve. And so a lot of these people out here that's who's just serving any kind of God, they have a lot of moral claims.

But where you get your moral claim from if you don't have one God that has one standard? Yeah. The Christian worldview is the only thing that gives us a meaningful justification to appeal to a moral standard. Yeah. You have no moral standard.

Right? No. They have no moral standard. The person the person out there who who who who's who's saying that they're spiritual and they're saying that we can serve any god out there, it's like, how how can you say that the god you serve trumps the god that I serve? Right.

But if you get your more standard from and so I I think asking good questions like that will help expose a lot of flaws in people's worldview, and I think it will point to know if there's is one god. He has one standard, and we have to submit to him. He doesn't have to submit to us. Absolutely. Yeah.

No. That that's great. I I think I also like approaching that question by sort of unmasking the supposed humility of that position. Right? Yeah.

Because what people are saying when they say that is, look. I think all religions are either true or untrue, essentially, is what they're saying. I think all versions of spirituality or or at least any specified version of spirituality is untrue. And and the arrogance of that, whether they realize it or not, is they're basically saying my spiritual position is that all of your spiritual positions are wrong and mine is right. Yeah.

Absolutely. No less arrogant. That's no less exclusive than just saying one religion is right or wrong. And so getting people to go, look. Look.

Look. We gotta we gotta do away with these immature notions of exclusive and inclusive. Everyone excludes something. Every Yes. Every claim by definition, by logical definition will exclude another claim.

It's impossible. So you have let's let's get away with that, and let's redefine inclusive as I will love and respect anyone regardless of their beliefs. Yeah. That that that's inclusive. Look.

True inclusion is do I respect and love those I disagree with? That's that's fine. That's Jesus. But let's not let's do away with the silly notion that there is no truth except, oh, wait. The truth I'm saying that there is no truth.

Yeah. So so getting people to get onto that level playing field, and then like you said, go look. Let's just if you're open minded enough to pursue truth wherever it leads, look at Jesus because he's either like CS Lewis claimed. He's either a liar, a lunatic, or a savior, and he said he was the only way. So examine him honestly with an open heart.

And if you find him to be true, then you gotta go where it leads if you're being an honest person. And absolutely. And one of the, you know, one of the things I've I've I've noticed just in evangelizing for the all these years is that, man, I've often heard the world accuse the church of being abusive. But if we're honest, the world is way more abusive than churches. They try to bully us to conform to their way of thinking way more than we try to convince them to conform to ours.

Correct. Right? And, you know, I heard, I think it was Paul Washer who said the the world will hypocritically applaud any man who claimed he is the seeker of truth, but they will call for a public execution for any man who claimed he has found it. I thought that was an amazing quote because it's so true. It's so true.

If you if you if you go out and say, I'm on a quest for truth. They'll look at you like this smart person. You're on a quest. Yeah. You're such an open minder.

But the moment you landed somewhere, they'll bully you and say, how do you know something is true? Yada yada yada. And so, like, the world wants you to float up in the air Right. And to be like a piece of paper being flown wherever the wind takes you. But the moment you land somewhere and stand on it, they'll bully you to say, man, you're you're oppressive in this.

And it's just Right. It's just reverse it's just a reverse manipulation. It's like, no. Like, no. I'm I'm not oppressive.

You're actually oppressing me. That if what the worldview that I stands on said that the god that I said that he's the says that he's the way, the truth, and the light, that he's the only way, you cannot bully me to to say that he's not the only way. Right. That's that's what I believe. Right?

Right. And so yeah. But it's back to your fundamental premise, which is that truly the motivating drive behind spiritual ambiguity is is a desire to remain God myself. Yes. Because then I can borrow from all of the sort of benefits of a worldview that offers me meaning and morality and hope and future without any of the trappings that are then require me to conform or submit or surrender.

So, really, it's nothing new. Right? It's just Yeah. Vague spirituality is a cover for personal deity. That's all it really is in the end.

You're talking good. Yeah. That's all it is. Yep. Yep.

Look. I could go on with you for three hours. I wanna respect your time. I love this conversation. I love your heart on this, and I feel like I could learn so much from you.

But I I I'll wrap it up there. But, man, thank you. Thank you for writing this book. Thank you for the example that you're setting. I believe it's really God the the whole desire to use art and music for the purposes of evangelism, follow that because I think you're supposed to do that.

And we need more voices like yours out there. And so Yeah. Appreciate you. And, yeah, I know that those listening will as well. Get the book.

Seriously, if you haven't already, what's wrong with you? Get the book. How to tell the truth, the story of how God saved me to win hearts, not just arguments. It is awesome. I appreciate that you wrote it.

I believe it'll be one of many to come. And, yeah, that's it. Thank you guys for listening. Thank you, bro. Alright.

Peace. Peace. Thank you for listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. If you enjoy this content, consider leaving us a rating and a review on iTunes. Got questions for the guys?

Send them to provokeandinspire@steiger.org. Thanks for listening.

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