The Masculinity Crisis No One Wants To Face

You are listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. What's up everyone? Yo! Welcome to the Provoke and Inspire podcast live stream. Chad is not here. He's at some sort of boot camp. I didn't get the specifics of what kind of boot camp is it a fitness boot camp. Is it a fashion boot camp? Is it just a boot? Boot camp? Now, wouldn't that be weird? A bunch of dudes gathered together learning about boots at boot camp. A boot boot camp? I've never understood that word. And now I've learned. But anyway, that's enough shenanigans. Everything's a little bit weird. So we are going to do a full episode. We are going to talk about the crisis of masculinity. It's been a topic that we have been circling around for a while, and I think beyond, of course, being men, having sons, caring about the world, caring about society, and the real problem that this is. I think it also intersects with us in a unique way because we see this in missions, right? We see the ramifications of struggling young men in the missions field and how there, quite frankly, is a lack of strong young men. Now, I would actually say that our mission might have a bit of a we might be a bit of an outlier, I think, in that at least from my from what I can see going to our mission school, God has given us a lot of really strong men. And yet this is certainly an anomaly from a missional perspective worldwide. And so we're going to talk about it. What what does it mean? How do we sort of extract this from the hot topic political kind of fighting conversation that it has become, uh, and, or even just sort of in vogue as kind of a cultural topic to discuss. And what would a follower of Jesus. How should a follower of Jesus respond to the fact that young men are struggling by every metric, by every measurement? Young men are lacking purpose, lacking meaning? Addicted. Suicidal. Anxious. Depressed. I mean, it's a real problem in our culture today. But before that, for those who checked out last week's episode, it centered around a very scary health situation for David personally. So I think maybe it would be weird for us to mention that and then not give the latest. Uh, and so if you wouldn't mind, David, maybe giving a just a quick overview for those who have no idea, but then kind of into where we are at now, because I think for those who care and listen, they're going to want to know where you're at. Um, so if you could just let us know, that'd be great. Yeah. So very quickly, I mean, I always get Jodi and I get this really thorough exam every year, uh, physical from a friend of ours in, uh, in here in the US. And she came back and said that my PSA levels were up, but not to worry about it, it probably is nothing. And maybe next year we could look at it again. I was tempted to just forget about it, but I thought, no, I need to go to a urologist and do an MRI. And so I did. And they found two lesions and they said, you've got to do a biopsy. And it was very stressful as you can imagine. So then I did the biopsy. It was taken forever to get the results. Finally I talked to a nurse and she said that you have. She described it intermediate prostate cancer, which means it's not the kind that's super aggressive. It's not the low grade kind. And it means anywhere from getting your prostate out to radiation therapy to who knows what. And so anyway, I've been waiting for that. You know, you have all kinds of scenarios in your head, and I'm hard to focus on anything else. And I'm trying to, you know, I'm also wanting to do this in the right way. And I want to learn everything. God wants to teach me through all of this, because I know a lot of people, and I know a lot of people listening to this are going through difficult health problems. I mean, I know people in our own mission who are going through difficult health problems. So I'm not the center of the universe when it comes to this. But I want to do this well. I want to be a good example to our people here. You know, our mission to my family. I felt I needed to be really transparent about it, because I think one of the mistakes we make when we're going through things like this is not to share it with people that know us and love us so they can pray. I mean, the the instinct is to want to keep it to yourself. I had to even fight that. But I thought, no, this is something I need to do. And also I hope it encourages others that are listening. If you're going through something, you need to share it, you know, don't keep it to yourself. You need to tell people who love you and who can pray with you. Also, we believe in our mission that God hears prayers. You know, on the wall of our mission school in Germany, it says God rewards those who seek him with a desperate heart. And he does. And so through this scary time, I have felt that even though it's still been scary. So anyway, I finally got the results to the biopsy. I'm meeting with the doctor on Monday, so next week to know what the plan is. But then I can let Ben. He can go from there. Well, yeah. I mean, what you have is a serious but highly treatable form of prostate cancer that ninety nine percent of men are treated from and live on from. And that's awesome. Praise the Lord. We are obviously very grateful for that. And that doesn't mean the treatment's going to necessarily be fun. We'll find out on Monday. We don't know the implications that it will have on the plans you have. My prayer and belief is that I just have this belief that it's not going to affect you. You know that Chad's prayer of God's got this nothing to fear wasn't necessarily what we might have hoped for, that it's nothing. But what I think it is is that you got nothing to fear. God's got this. He got this through the wisdom that he provided you to be vigilant. He and he has this even in this timing that you're here, you've got this window that it's a bummer. You can't go home to New Zealand, but you're here, and God's giving you this beautiful place to live, and you're surrounded by family, and there's a lot of silver linings to be extracted from that. And in addition to that, you do have this four or five month window here where, Lord willing, you can rip through this treatment and, and go on doing what God has called you to do. And look, we praise the Lord for all of this. And we also recognize that there are people listening for whom this was not the result, and that it's hard. And this has been hard. But obviously in this case, we're very grateful. I'm very grateful. And so so I think that's basically summarizes where we're at. Wow. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. So David, on Monday when you see the doctor it will be to find out what the treatment is that they want you to go through. Correct. Yeah. And so that's what we're waiting to find out. Yeah. So anyway, God's protected us and uh, we should have years of random stories to come. Well, that that is good. Speaking of which, I'm very happy to hear that it is good news. It is, it is. So, speaking of which, do we got one or do we just go on to the topic, David. The ball is firmly in your court. You know, I might strike out, but I can give it a try. David's random story. I didn't hear anything. It said David's random story. It said David's random story. So I've been kind of, like, struggling with this whole, you know, diagnosis thing. Yeah. Fair enough. Like I said, it's hard to focus. So I thought, I need to watch something that will take my mind off of it. I mean, I'm doing a lot of prayer walks and stuff, but then after a while, you just got nothing left to say. And so then you're like, uh. So then I thought, well, I'll watch something to take my mind off it. So there's this old movie called The Invasion of the Body Snatchers, and I thought it was, you know, it's kind of like cancer, you know what I mean? So I thought, I'll watch The Invasion of the Body Snatchers. You're so weird. Like, what's because you just watch, like, Airbud two or something? It's in San Francisco, and these, like plants, come from outer space. They get next to people and they make these little pods, you know, like flower things. And then they duplicate the people and turn the people into dust kind of thing. And then they put them in trash cans. The new person, which is the alien, and then the aliens just kind of march around and they keep doing that and made me feel different about plants, you know, because like when I go to Luke's house, they have plants everywhere. Yeah. Watch out. There's one behind you right now. Oh, no. David's random story today, as promised, we're going to talk about the crisis of masculinity. And to be honest, it's not a new topic, but it continues to be talked about. And at least for me, I think when I first was exposed to it was probably Jordan Peterson. And this was the whole patriarchy. And, you know, that famous interview that he does where he just frankly humiliates that one dear reporter from the UK. But the point is, he begins to kind of list out the plight of men the depression, the anxiety, the how men take the hardest jobs, how men are the most economically depressed, how they're not going to school. Men now make up almost eighty percent of suicides in the US, young men account for seventy percent of the recent decline in college enrollment. One in three men under thirty has zero close friends, according to a recent study. And then young men are widely addicted to pornography, to gambling, to social media. They feel incredibly isolated and alone. There's a real problem with Arrested Development not stepping into the even the beginnings of adulthood. I've talked about this before. What a really weird feature of the younger generations is, is that all the generations previous to Gen Z and Alpha, they wanted to start adulthood, but they wanted to delay what they kind of consider the culmination of adulthood, the culmination being have kids get a house. You know, all these kind of markers of adult responsibility. All the other generations are like, man, I want to drink. I want to have sex. I want to get out of the house. I want to drive a car. I want to party. Predictably, wanted to avoid responsibilities of adulthood. Now, that was Luke. When I met him before, he was just wild. Wild. He was like playing with Legos. He was like drinking foamy chocolate milk with reckless abandon. David kept suggesting stuff for me to become responsible. I didn't like that. He was like trousers. Not for me. And then he dashed off into the woods. It's David's fault that I'm married, you know. It's like he led me to to be married. He wanted to teach me responsibility. That's true, I did. I did tell you to get married. And I'm glad you did. And so the premise is, we're not just talking about that. That's been talked about by brilliant people. Well, I think we need to talk about is what the Jesus followers response is to this crisis. More than just to understand it. But what are we supposed to do about it? I think that's where we want to start and said, Luke has done basically no talking thus far. He will start us off. You know, you were mentioning Jordan Peterson and the whole cultural shift where that was being talked about more. And just one thought I had. Um, as a follower of Jesus from that was it was refreshing and encouraging. You know, various aspects of it to see in mainstream culture and secular culture that being talked about. Because I felt like before, as Christians, we would have certain values and things that we could look to or to or, you know, biblical stories and principles to look to, to understand masculinity and the role of men. And yet those were often part of the package that people criticized about Christians. They'd be like, oh, you know, they're um, you know, they make the, the man authoritarian or, you know, it's it's old fashioned. And that was part of the criticism. And now you've seen mainstream mainstream culture. Suddenly the pendulum swung and people are more aware. Wait a minute. Men need to play the role they were called to play. And, um. And so that that was refreshing. But I think your question, Ben, is a good one. What do we do as followers of Jesus? And I think that ultimately we need to think about whether our community, the community that God's called us to be is as a church, as followers of Jesus, is creating space for men to be men and to grow and to be able to, um, be discipled and learn to follow Jesus in a, in a way that, um, that really reflects the nature and the gifts and the and the strength that that is in men. And unfortunately, that's often not the case. I think that's the same problem the world faces we face inside the church as well, where, um, you know, we've talked about this in a mission, David, you've brought this up, the issue of worship and how worship has very often been led by women and in the church. I think another thing that I've observed in the church is often we've become very academic and intellectual, even in the language and the way we talk about stuff in church services. And for a lot of guys, if they're not academics, they just don't find their place there. I was talking to a friend just yesterday from from our church in the UK, and he was saying that his son is struggling to find to feel like he has a place in the church, and it's because he's not particularly academic. He's more of a sports guy. He wants to hang out with his friends and have fun, and there's not enough of that in the church. It's like you sit and listen. And so I think various aspects like that, we have to think through, how are we welcoming men into a community that really, you know, honors them and gives them space to be men? That's one of the things I was thinking of. This might be a weird angle to take this, but I don't feel like I ever remembered having this sort of conscious sense of, I gotta know what it means to be a man like you need to understand, like we need to have rites of passage, and we need to take our kids out into the woods, and we need to, like, look, I'm not dismissing that. And I know there's the whole intentional fatherhood and John Tyson thing and people into that. And I knew you were talking about look. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But look, I'm not I'm not dismissing that necessarily. But I guess for me, ultimately this is a follower of Jesus, not a gender issue. This is a faith issue. I think that when you have a breakdown in what it means to be a man or a woman, it's because you don't know what it means to be an image bearer of God. More fundamentally, I think the temptation is to enter into this conversation at the same place as society, which is men dominated forever. So now we had to give women their turn. And maybe now the pendulum has swung too far to the other direction. So now we have to kind of come back to the middle. And now we got to give men attention. And I don't think ultimately that addresses the core of the problem. The core of the problem is that we are broken, that we are sinful, that we need Jesus, and that if we understood our fundamental identity as image bearers of God that actually precedes and is more paramount than our identity as men and women. I think there's been an attack on masculinity, so I don't think it's just as simple as that. What you're saying, I think that people I'm not saying it's simple. What I'm saying is that to address the problem, you have to address the core of the problem. And yes, there is an attack on masculinity. I don't disagree. The media portrays men as idiots. Feminism has become more about revenge against men than it is about equality for women. There is a, I think, a spiritual dimension of an active attack against even what it means to be a man, gender, all these things. I don't disagree with any of that, but I still think that's downstream from the fundamental issue. This links back to what I started with, which is that for me personally, I was taught to be a follower of Jesus, to seek and know Jesus, to make knowing him the priority of my life, and that in so doing that then shaped my perception of what it means to be a man. I then had a healthy perception of biblical masculinity, which is less about stereotypes and more about character. You're encouraged to, as a boy, to be a boy. You weren't you didn't sit there and consciously say, this is what it means to be a boy. But I agree. I think the problem is that for a lot of people today, they don't have fathers. So that's a huge issue. So they don't have any modeling, spiritual modeling of what a godly man looks like. You know, because I don't think being masculine is, you know, you like to dig holes and carry logs around and stuff. You're talking about getting close to God and knowing his heart. And then we will become what we should be. And so to me, I look at, for example, in Ephesians it says how we should be towards our wives, because I think that also applies in your singleness to how you should treat girls, how you should treat the opposite sex. I think there's an element that we're supposed to love. Like Christ loved the church. Sacrificial. Selfless. Protecting. There's this idea that a spiritual thing that men have lost, that they need to be protecting because they've been told that that's not cool. You know that. Why should they carry the heavy suitcase? Let the girl carry the heavy suitcase. Why should they be the one to go to the airport to pick somebody up at two o'clock in the morning? Let one of the girls do it to me is a spiritual thing. I never said it wasn't a spiritual thing. The core of my argument is that if you properly water the seed, it will grow into the tree it's meant to be. But there has to be modeling. There is an act. Well, yeah, sure, but you are not the most conventional man, because I don't think that's what being a man is. I think man is being. That's the point I'm trying to make is that I don't feel. What do you mean? I'm not a conventional man. What do you even mean by that? Not even close. Let me say something, because I think that there's something important to realize, Ben, in this is that you did grow up in a family with a dad who maybe a lot of it was intuitive. But see, David, I think did a lot of things intuitively that you benefited from was going to be my point. And so because I'm also not I've never been a big fan of like create like having these special man meetings and talking about being men. I'm not like, that's always been something that's been I've found to be kind of cheesy. But, um, but if you have a dad or a man in your life, um, as an example to look up to, you learn things that a lot of other guys don't get to learn because they haven't had that opportunity. And so it might be intuitive, it might not be this kind of very intentional process that that has to be done, but it has an effect on you. And I think that David is right in that there has to be some intentionality to help guys figure this stuff out. It's not going to happen just naturally from if they just, you know, become part of a community and start learning to follow Jesus. They're going to be you're going to need to talk about stuff that they may not have experienced or had had the chance in their lives to, to learn. I guess for me, it's not an either or. I think it's more of a top down thing. And I think part of the problem is that we are tempted to enter into this at the cultural level or at the hot topic level, or we kind of get wrapped around stereotypes and cliches about what manhood is. And look, I don't disagree. Like there are things that need to be actively be taught and probably rituals that are important to this process. And I'm not an expert by any means. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, like with any issue, it starts like my job as a dad primarily is to teach my son to love and know Jesus. And then, yeah, I say to him, be tough and watch out for your sisters and you know all that stuff. But he's gonna learn to love and know Jesus, um, in a different way from you than he will from Courtney. So there is an element of gender and there being differences in what it looks like to follow Jesus. And I think that's an important thing to recognize. Now, we could define manhood in so many different ways. And, you know, I could spend hours coming up with different characteristics that would define manhood. But the point is, I agree with you. Yes. Got to learn to follow Jesus and follow Jesus. Find a solid identity. You become the man or the woman that God has called you to be. But you need references and examples in your life. And that the best, of course, is if you've got a healthy family and parents, who can be that. At least that first reference. Um, and those that don't get that, they miss out. I'm thinking this through out loud. I guess it mostly comes from a very anecdotal, personal, lived experience where I don't feel like I was given all of these very intentional lessons about manhood, and maybe it was more osmosis, and maybe it was more just I experienced it and didn't even necessarily understand what I was absorbing vicariously through that experience. I guess for me, it's just that I feel like the remedy to the crisis from the church is often baking, shouting, let's go into the woods! And I'm like a like. To me, that creates a very narrow vision of manhood or masculinity. And I just think that, you know, yes, there's there's a modeling, but we're also different. And so the modeling has its limits in terms of like what I need to have modeled to me more than anything is how to seek God and to want to be like Jesus. That's, I guess, where my argument comes from, in the sense that that will then produce in me a high character version of the person that God has made me to be. And guess what? God has made me a man. So just to play the devil's advocate here, let's say you were raised by a Jesus loving dad who never brought up anything distinct about masculinity in the sense of a man does this, a man does that, but did in a very intentional way, teach you how to love and seek God and try to be like him. Would that not produce a godly man in your mind? Yeah. It would. And and actually that that is true for me too. Like my my dad. So what you described as, uh, your upbringing with David, I think similar. In my case, my dad also wasn't about sitting down and saying, let me tell you what it means to be a man and that kind of thing. He didn't do that either. He he discipled me. He he taught me the Bible, taught me wisdom. Um, taught me prayer. And so I agree. And actually it's interesting, um, because I, I did read the, um, intentional fatherhood book, which, which is it's good we're talking about this because that's become quite a big. Um, yeah, we might need to have a specific conversation that just breaks that down. Yeah. So everybody's talking about that book right now. So, um, I did read the book, and I am part of a group of dads, including your brother, who are thinking that one through together. And I really appreciated the book. I thought it was a great book. But it's interesting in what you're saying because it really is a very kind of guided, uh, directive process. You know, do this talk about these themes and these topics. Be very intentional. I've, I tried that with Daniel, my son, and I've done a bit of it, but to be honest, I've quite quickly moved more into, you know what, I just want to read the Bible with him and pray. I want to, uh, talk about what it means to follow Jesus kind of literally what you're saying. I moved into that a lot more. So I didn't really follow the program much, and I but it did encourage me to remember that it's so important for me as a dad to intentionally spend time with my son and invest in him. And I also recognize so even more sharply now that he's a teenager, he's fifteen. The difference between my relationship with him and Anna's relationship with him. And I think that's the biggest thing I've taken away from reflecting on all of that is how important it is that I spend time with him, that I invest in him and that there's something I can give him that Anya can't. And that, I think, is maybe the one difference between men and women in that point. Yeah. And I guess, I guess for me, I love Jesus. I am constantly trying to be more like him with his help. I am constantly putting my life's values and goals before him and asking him to shape and refine them. But what I don't feel like I'm ever intentionally doing necessarily is saying, what do I need to be doing as a man? Like, you know, there's some cliche things, you know, my son's nine. There's some things we're gonna have to start talking about, you know, all that kind of stuff. That's probably my responsibility. You know, I get all that. But I feel like my intentionality seeking God is producing naturally in me the kinds of things that I, as a dad, need to teach my son. This doesn't have to be a false dichotomy. I don't think that having a schema or a plan or a paradigm is wrong. We probably need the encouragement of other men and and all these things, and we could learn a lot about what we need to do. But I feel like ultimately, my son doesn't need to become a stereotype or an archetype. He needs to become the devoted Jesus following version of who he is. What do you think about this, though? Um, I think guys face and again, you know, every time you generalize, there'll be differences. I want to recognize that. I agree with you on that. Like there are stereotypes that don't don't fit every case. Um, but guys generally will usually face different kinds of issues or problems or barriers to have a strong relationship with Jesus and to grow in following him. Then then women do. And so, um, you know, a lot of boys typically will will learn more through doing than, than sitting and talking about something. And they will, um, struggle with wanting to take on responsibility. and it's just kind of a natural thing that most boys struggle with and different to girls. And so so I think that there are specific differences which. So then again, in our case, like I you really you think that you think that guys boys struggle with taking responsibility I don't yeah like, yeah like it's a two it's a two sided coin for me. I think that we as guys, that is probably something really at our core. What we want is to be able to feel responsible for something like I think that's part of the nature God's put in us. But at simultaneously, it's an area of weakness where and that's what a lot of guys in current culture abdicate responsibility. They advocate responsibility. So now I recognize so that like in Daniel, there are things that Anya seems to struggle to get or struggles with and get frustrated, frustrated with that I empathize with when I look at Daniel and I'm like, yeah, of course he doesn't love school and doesn't want to do his homework. Of course, of course he wants to, you know, hang out with his friends. and he's curious about, um, you know, messing about. And so, you know, and so things that I feel like I understand more because it's something about being a boy. And so I guess that's my point, that there there are also differences in the challenges we face that we need to therefore speak into. Dad, you said that. Do you really think we struggle with responsibility? I have vivid memories of, uh, New Zealand high school years. Let's call it January eighth. And you barging into Aaron's room. I don't know why I got out of this. Maybe I was more naturally responsible, you know, ripping the covers off his bed at eleven and saying what happened was he was laying on our couch. Yeah. This is a great story. It was a summer. And I said, okay, Aaron, what is your plan for getting a job? And I gave him a paper and a pen. And then it took like all of his strength, I mean, like all of his strength to write a job, he just wrote j o Be it like, took him, like a minute to write just the word job. Wow. And so I said, okay, you have to leave the house now, and you can't come back here until you have a job. And so I kicked him out of the house, actually. And then he came back in the afternoon with a job. Yeah. He was the manager at Pizza Hut. Manager. Manager. But I was. Well, no, he eventually became the manager. But it sounds like cooler. That's so funny, because I couldn't imagine that in Aaron today. But but again, I think is. Yeah, I don't know. Is that just a boy thing? I never had girls, so I what do I know about girls I don't know nothing. Nothing at all. No. And it's probably for the best because you would have probably completely scared and totally dictatorial at the same time. I wasn't I was not with girls. I said it's probably a girl. Well, with girls I would have been the opposite. Probably so. Okay. Trying to find some cohesion in this, but I think it's a very interesting conversation. I just feel like the world is stuck in this pendulum swing and you see the negative voices, the Andrew Tates, the Nick Fuentes. That's his name, right? Yeah, I don't know. It's not a name worth knowing, but, uh, these guys who, you know, they come in at the ends of the spectrum and the ends of the pendulum, and they're like terrible voices. Be a macho, misogynistic man. And then, you know, you've got Jordan Peterson, of course, who's more not like that. But he's, by and large, positive messages of masculinity in the absence of, I think, a true Judeo-Christian grounding, which would really bring the ultimate hope, as I suggest. Um, so you have these voices in that vacuum, but it's still just kind of feels like this pendulum swing, and it's not dealing with the core of the problem. And I don't think any of us disagree that the core of every problem is, is the absence of surrender to Jesus. So I'm not saying that that the downstream consequences of surrender to Jesus as a father would produce in you a level of wisdom and intentionality and uniqueness, like my devotion to Jesus is going to produce a unique form of parenting in me, just naturally. Then Courtney. Courtney is not gonna care as much about certain things naturally as a woman that I will my. I'm going to just gravitate towards the lessons of get back on the ice, dude. You know, falling is learning. You're good. You got this. Like, I'm gonna naturally push him in a way that my. Now my wife's pretty tough, but in a way that my wife wouldn't. Um, but that's not because I read some manual on manhood. That's because I love Jesus, and then I'm operating out of that. Oh, true. But I do think that some guys need guidance because they haven't had good fatherhood. Right. Or, you know, examples. And I also would say just back to what you said earlier, Luke, about boys might not be as open to spiritual things because it's presented to them in an academic way, I would say. I don't think anyone is open to spiritual things if it's academic peers. Personally, I don't think it's a disagree. I, I would say talking about? That's not true. No, because one of the main ways I connect with God. No. Yeah, but it's not. You don't connect with God because it's just academic. You connect with God because you have a relationship. It's a it's a you see God moving in your life. You believe in the power of prayer. You're not just like a theologian that's that memorizes Scripture. No, but that creates a really strong man depiction of that. This is a tangent. Absolutely. But that's a body of Christ thing. I, I personally and maybe this is a theologically controversial statement, but I feel like I have a much more worshipful environment when I'm reading a book that stimulates my mind about the realities of God, right, than a corporate worship session. The point is, it stimulates you in a spiritual, of course, you know. So it's not just just studying facts. And I think that young men need strong challenges. That was something I was very aware of with you and Aaron, is that you need to to have challenges to go along with what you were learning. And I think young men need that. I think young boys need to places where they can go out and put their faith into action. And so that's why I would say, you know, you can take your sons fishing, you know, which is great to do, or you can take him to Iraq preaching, you know, which I did with you and or fishing. But see, you're proving my point. You're proving my point. Because first of all, on one level, I actually think the academic thing you brought up is a good point, because that's exactly the problem, is that if we say men aren't academic or they don't like to connect with God that way, that is a stereotype. When in reality what we should say is, how has God designed this man to connect with God? That's the point I'm trying to make. But the key is connect with God. That's the you're making. You're making my point. If we create this program to combat a stereotypical vision of men. Yeah, we don't get to the core of the problem, which is that, well, men in general are X, so we have to train them with why no man are not like that. Male and female hood is broader than the way society defines it, and if we feed into that, we are part of the problem. Well then then in that case, I'd go back to the point of it's about having good examples and references, because if you have enough good examples of guys and girls in in the community of the church, then there'll be enough examples where each, you know, different kind of personality has an example to follow. And maybe, maybe part of it is like part of what me and my friend were talking about yesterday was like how we started. We were thinking about our sons, and both of our sons are more sporty, active kind of guys and the the guys of their age who have tended to stay in church. And that's actually looking at Polish context and UK context have been more nerdy or even sometimes anti-social, like or not anti-social, but, um, not very. You're talking about socially. You're talking about homeschoolers. I knew you were gonna say that. I knew it. So. So these guys, these boys, they're fine. Sticking to church and going along and being part of the thing. Whereas guys like my son and and my friend's son, we were talking about earlier, like, they just don't feel like there's enough guys like them for them to connect with, and they end up having more friends outside the church than inside the church. And so and so I think it also that gets back to. Yeah, yeah. So they need examples. They need examples of guys who are not like that and who can be, you know, give them strong challenges and be strong and be up front and take responsibility and say, hey, I'm going to do this. Who's coming with me? And they're like, oh, I like that guy. That guy's like more like how I feel. I'm going to follow him. And so if you have enough examples and references, it just works, I think, where guys get to learn and grow and how we do worship, how we express the we don't just have a feminine worship expression, and then we have something that young guys like your son, you know, are really challenged by in worship. I think that's a huge issue, but that's probably another podcast. Ultimately, this is all coalescing into a irrefutable proof that I'm right, which is that this is not about a stereotype. Like I need a vision. So you don't think so? You don't think there's such a thing as masculine and feminine? That's how they say. That's literally the definition of a straw man argument. Oh, no, wait a minute. Then so what is what is masculinity? What is I? Let me ask it this way. What is a man? A man is somebody who identifies as a man. But see, again, this is where I think we've gotten in trouble in the church, because there are a lot of reasons for the rise of the LGBT. Many. And it's a very complex, multi-dimensional issue that we're not going to do justice to here. But one small part of the problem has been that, and you agree with this. I know you have. You've done that on this podcast is that we've created this incredibly narrow vision of masculinity and we say, boys do this and girls do this. And then a guy comes along who doesn't fit into that stereotype, who are eccentric in certain ways or artistic in certain ways or sensitive in certain ways. And then they come into our paradigm and we say, no, no, no, those are not feminine. Those are not masculine traits. And so they're ostracized from those communities. And then guess what? There's a community who says, no, no, no, no, no, you are perfect. But it's because you are identifying in the wrong way. If you identify this way, then it'll all make sense as oppose. And Nancy Pearcey, the apologist Nancy Pearcey, who was the first one to introduce this idea to me through her book, I think it was, um, what's the book? Uh, love thy body. Yeah, love thy body. Exactly. Where basically by becoming overly rigid in our view of what masculine and feminine looks like, we have created this exodus from manhood unnecessarily when what we need is redeemed, Jesus centered, surrendered adventure, serving and seeking God with all your heart versions of whatever you are. And so then the guy in the church that's brilliant intellectually sees a Tim Keller who wasn't a manly man and goes, oh man, I can love God with all my mind and be a guy of character and courage and conviction intellectually, and defend that at Google headquarters. That is my vision. Not. And then there's the guy who's, whatever the Navy Seal, I guess, that loves Jesus and blows people's heads off, I guess. Uh, whatever. No, don't say whatever, but you know what I mean. Because whatever the case may be, the Bear Grylls or whatever, that, you know, who's, like, out there in The Survivalist or the lumberjack guy, I, I make it pejorative, sleeping in holes. I make it pejorative because that's the version I don't identify with very much. So I make fun of that. I don't own a tool. Will camping mocks the homeless. A Good Night in the wilderness is at a great hotel in a cool city. In other words, I'm your son. I am. Yeah. That's right. Jesus loving version of you. That's right. And I don't want to be anyone else. I don't want to, like, cut down wood. But I think both of you would really enjoy coming on the man prayer hike that we do over here in Europe. I think even though you say that, I think you would. MPH yes we did last year. Last year we had sixteen sixteen guys do the walk three days through the mountains. And this year in January, I think we're going to have thirty or forty walking through the mountains together and praying for three days. You guys would love being part of something like that, bro. Like I'm not like that. Limited. We'd have to have food catered to us, Ben and I. Yeah, yeah, we'd have to carry me when I grow weary. So listen to this last time when we went, some of the guys especially like there's a few of the Polish guys that carried cans of food in their backpack because they thought they were just gonna have to heat it over a fire. but we're actually staying in these nice kind of huts, but they're. They're like little hostels on the top of the mountain that has great food. And you can order food and stuff. So they were like, oh, it's actually pretty cool. So they're not carrying tins of food this. Well then yeah, that's then I could, I could see that. Hey guys I want to give a quick shout out to some of the frequent commenters here. We appreciate you guys for your comments. And, uh, let me know who won this little rousing debate. I think I won it, I think it's I don't I think you made all my points in the end, which I think is the definition of winning an argument when you get your opponent to make your points for you. My flamethrower video was very applicable to the conversation. No, it was, nor applicable, nor relevant, nor useful. We're all dumber for having heard it, and may God rest your soul. What is that clip from Billy Madison? What? You know what I'm talking about. No. Okay. Hold on. You talk amongst yourselves while I get this. What is it? So there's this penultimate moment in the movie Billy Madison, where Adam Sandler, after studying and like a montage, he's got to, like, win this contest in order to, I don't know, prove some point. He's got to win this contest. So he gives a speech before an assembly of children, and the principal of this school responds to his speech with this. What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul. That's amazing. That is beautiful. That's amazing. So I think that perfectly summarizes everything David has done on this ten year podcast journey. What is this disrespect? What is this attack today? What is it? I'm a man and men speak the truth. Men! Don't hold back. Men! Let it out! Unbridled. Untrammeled. Full of fury and wrath. Let it rain down upon you and thine countenance. Speaking of guys and girls in a differences, my house has just been overrun by five, six, seven, nine year old girls screaming in the living room. So if there's any background noise, that's what it is. Yeah, well, fair enough, I heard it. But don't worry. Through the technology we possess, we shall eliminate the cackling. All right, that's it. Love you all. We gotta go. We made it through. It was a bit of a hodgepodge. The tech problems, the issues. But you know what? In the end, we learned to love again. And that's all that matters in this topsy turvy world. We love you. We need you. And oh, yes. Stay real peace.

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