The #1 Danger Facing the Church Today | Pastor Landon MacDonald

Landon MacDonald is a pastor of a church in Arizona, and I stumbled across his work because he had a crazy idea of putting a billboard on a highway that asked people what they thought of Jesus. The response was viral. It was eye opening, and it made me go, I want to talk to this dude. He seems really, really cool. And my suspicions were correct. He is really cool. We got to talk about a whole range of things about discipleship, how to faithfully follow Jesus, what are the biggest barriers and obstacles to that exact mission, and just everything else in between? It was dynamic. His Holy Spirit filled and anointed and just an all around great guy. And I loved my conversation with him. And I know you will too. So check it out. Let us know what you think. Provoke and inspire podcast at npr.org. You can DM us on Instagram. Join our podcast channel. If you happen to see me in person, you can high five me and let me know what you think of this episode. As always, this podcast is part of Steiger, a worldwide missions organization that is always wrestling with how can we lift up the name of Jesus outside of the church? Now, obviously, if we are not living faithfully for him, we will never be effective witnesses. So that's where this podcast comes in, and that's how it nests within this broader missional community of people dedicated to reaching those who will not walk into a church. If you go to org. You can find out more. Lastly, wherever you consume this, hit that subscribe button. Leave us a comment. Let somebody else know. Let us enlargen. Or in the words of The Simpsons, let us embiggen the community that we have so that we can together, faithfully follow Jesus in a post-Christian culture. All right, check out my conversation with pastor and all around cool dude Landon McDonald. You're listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. Landon, thank you for being on the Provoke and Inspire podcast and for those watching, not just listening, you are surrounded by a mountain of art. I first did not know what I was looking at, what is behind you and what has led to what appears to be an addiction of some sort. Yes, these are my, uh. That's my CD collection. I, I sold about seventy percent of them when I moved to Arizona. And then this is vinyl. Vinyl? There's a bunch of shelves of those. I, uh, I love music, I love music, I love listening to music. I love how music can be active or passive. And so I love listening to music and thinking or drinking or having a coffee. And I love listening to music and, uh, and reading. And so it just perhaps this was like my, my high school rebellion. That was the only rebellion that my parents would accept. And this is where it's gotten me to. Yeah, I like that. That could be your biography. Acceptable rebellion. That's good. Why music? Were you a musician or just an appreciator of music? And what kind of music? My. Well, Chuck Klosterman says, if anybody ever tells you they like all kinds of music, that means they like no kinds of music. Yeah. And, uh, that's good. I, um, I was in a band in high school and college. I played on worship team also, and it was just I was in Chicago and I would literally send I would snail mail my band CD to clubs in downtown Chicago, and they wouldn't always know how old we were. This was before you could attach an MP3 to an email. They would say, it's too big. So now, um, so then at that time we would get like letters back or emails back and they would say, well, we're going to book you for this club. And then we would show up. I would be like fifteen years old, and our bass player was thirteen years old one time. And so they used to say, um, hey, give us your driver's license. You're going to confirm you're not twenty one. They put a big black X on your hand. Oh yeah. And my my buddy Cal was like, I'm thirteen years old. I'm not going to have a driver's license for three years. And I think it was just a hobby. And it's, you know, men, Christian men are always looking for good, harmless hobbies. And most of my friends are into golf. And when they tell me how much they spend, I'm like, oh my gosh, I spend like half as much as that on vinyl every month. And I've got this whole collection and all you have to show for it is a bad golf game. Bad golf. You are in Arizona, right? So that's kind of the Mecca of of it is. Yeah, a bad golf game and a bunch of days where you drank one too many at twelve thirty p m. So, um, okay. Well, I think you've made a wise choice. That's cool to hear, man. So tell me a little bit more. So you are a pastor. How'd you get into that? And a little bit about what you do. And then we'll just we'll see where this goes. I love it. Well, first of all, thank you for inviting me. I'm honored to be here and the ministry and all of that looks awesome. I'm proud of anyone, um, who does any type of internet ministry of any kind. I think it's amazing. Um, anyways, I am from Chicago. I became a pastor. Uh, I don't know, at some point there I went to Moody Bible Institute and I met my wife and, um, we moved to Arizona in twenty nineteen. I lead a church called Mission Community Church in Gilbert, Arizona. I'm a teacher for an online, uh, undergrad and seminary called um Theos University, and I make content on YouTube and Instagram. I mostly right now working on this podcast called theology AMA. And so that's kind of the main thing I'm doing other than teaching through the Bible at my church. And, uh, I love to do it. How was it inheriting a church one year before Covid? Well, when I moved here, I worked at a church called Cornerstone in Chandler. I worked there for a couple of years before I ended up at mission. But it you know, Covid was such an intriguing thing. It was such a baptism by fire and watching all of, you know, different things burn down. The church I was at, attendance went down by half giving stayed the same, and we didn't lose a single volunteer. And I was like, wow. So half of the people in the church didn't give or serve. It was just an absolutely wild moment where you're like, wow. And it made me love our volunteers even more. I was like, you guys are doing everything. Yeah. So that's an interesting thing that you led into there, because I've been thinking a lot about church, and I'm sure as a pastor, this is just constantly on your mind. And I had this mentor a while back. He's he's passed away. But he was this really brilliant older guy and he was very involved in church but also marketing. And but one of the things he always lamented and he talked to me about is that back in the day, and there can always be this revisionism. And it was great in my day. But he talked about how church used to be, you know, you'd have a pastor usually it was just the only employee in the church was the pastor, and they weren't always necessarily even funded that well, not that that's great, but that was kind of the reality of his day. And then the lay people were expected to fill in all the other roles, and they were expected to step up and serve. And kind of, as you were saying, in terms of the bizarre reality that people would come and not contribute in any way. Um, and then he kind of lamented the idea that things have progressed to the point where now everything has become professionalized. There's a paid professional for every role in the church, and it's created a bit of a consumer individual paradigm. I think that the descent, the grandchild of the nineteen nineties seeker sensitive church is a church where you have to pay people to make coffee. I'm not talking about like a coffee shop barista. I'm talking about like old school Baptist kitchen, making a big pot of coffee that isn't good. I think that that's a disaster. And I think that that should be embarrassing. You know, what is the New Testament? Say what you've heard from me in the presence of many witnesses. Entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. And I think if we lower the bar perpetually on what it means to be a Christian, we will have churches full of people who don't serve, don't give, don't know the ways of Jesus, and don't want to follow those. And then we will be stuck in a situation where we have hardly any leaders. Jesus, perhaps thinking about this type of situation, said the harvest is plentiful. The workers are few, but most people don't quote the second part, which is therefore pray earnestly that he may send workers into your harvest. And I think that if you have like a functionally anti charismatic church, functionally anti other gifts of the Holy Spirit church, then what you're left with is you're saying to men who are millionaires, who are very successful. Hey, do you want to come be a greeter at our church? And the that idea is so ludicrous. The idea that that is serving Christ. I'm not saying it's bad. I'm not saying churches shouldn't have them. I'm saying the idea that that would spiritually stimulate a man is so ludicrous. And, um, it's really sad, I think. I think, uh, two things. Volunteerism and contract employees are the future of the church, especially if there's a successful political push to take away the tax exempt status of churches, which would be horrible, but may happen. And I think that there's a lot of churches that perhaps, and I'm sure there are pastors would admit this. I'm not accusing or saying I know better. I've talked with pastors who think this way. I think a lot of churches would do better having fewer employees and more contract employees that are people in their church. And hey, we have a conference coming up. We don't need to hire a full time project manager. This woman in our church manages projects. Hey, do you want to work here for two months? And I love things like that. I love people in the church being involved in what's going on. So hopefully that answered what you were saying. Yeah. I think where have patterns of the world crept into our mentality as it relates to church. And, you know, I feel this weird sensation when I show up to my church. And despite being in full time ministry, you know, I sit down and, you know, the lights go down and the preview comes on and I have my coffee and it the whole thing just feels so consumeristic. And I'm not I'm not blaming the church. I know that a lot of it is actually on me. Like the expectations of what it should mean to be part of a local church. Do you think part of this is? Yeah. You need roles that fit the people that you have, and maybe financial paradigms that make more sense. But how much of it is a a heart level thing? And I know it's kind of a cliche drum to beat on, like we're also individualistic, but do you think how do you create an expectation in people that that my role here is more than just to show up and hear this Ted talk, but actually to do something about what I hear, maybe in the context of this local church. Yeah, well, churches morph to their culture and there's parts of that that aren't bad. I think there's excellency on, um, stages in America that is very honoring to God. It's very beautiful. There's people who are artists and musicians, and they work incredibly hard, and there's people who are production people who work incredibly hard. And I know that's not what you weren't saying. That isn't true. I'm just saying I think that that's a beautiful thing. I think that, um, it is difficult to if your church doesn't functionally believe, number one, that the church is the body of Christ. So if your church becomes an evangelistic ministry, which evangelistic ministries are incredible, but they're not churches, right? The church is the gathering of the body of Christ. It doesn't mean sinners and unsaved people aren't welcome it. Anyone's welcome. It just means that the way we view this isn't the number of butts and seats, it's the number of people in the path of Jesus here. And when you see it as an evangelistic thing, it's very, very easy to make that kind of your goal. And if the curse of American success is a fixation of up and to the right, more butts and seats, more people baptized, more hands raised for salvation. I think all three of those things are amazing, but there are a lot more subjective than people actually give them credit for. If those are the only thing and more dollars in the offering, if those are the things that matter the most, then we will inherently elevate people with the gift of evangelism over the people with the gift of proclamation and prophecy. And the problem with that is that that's not the way the church is supposed to function. And then I think when you do that, you start to have things like, we spent four hundred grand on our Christmas service, and we're not even going to have a service the next week. And these types of things that make absolutely no sense to me, we're functionally spending half of the year preparing for the people that don't even know God. And it just to me, it's kind of like a bit of a mess. Maybe the even more cynical interpretation is that it's evangelism to the nominal, or it's evangelism to the transfer growth in the sense that is the horse that's pulled the cart. A desire to see the truly unreached reached. And so all of our methodology is geared towards that, all of our focus and resources. Or is there a subtle sense that I have to compete with the fact that there are forty churches in a five mile radius who might be doing music and coffee better than me? And that would never be the conscious, stated goal. But that's got to be a pressure on some level. Is that too cynical of an analysis in terms of why we find ourselves in this place, as opposed to, I don't know, I feel like this desire to evangelize would be good, even if, as you say, it's not the core functionality of a church itself. Well, I think like, what are you trying to build and what are you trying to do? Like, do you want the people who will switch churches because there's better coffee? Because I don't want those people, but I do want to have good coffee. It's actually one of the first things I changed at our church, but I'm not thinking about other people. I'm thinking about how to bless the people that are here with something that's really good. We may as well not have coffee or have good coffee. Or do we? Church. Church shopping is a problem in Phoenix. It's a problem that I've talked with several other lead pastors about. I have found the lead pastors that are Gen X and millennial around me to be incredibly non-competitive and wonderful and very sharing of information, ideas, things that worked just very like Pro Kingdom. It's been really awesome. And I've talked with some of them about people who church hop, and it's intriguing because it's in the culture here. I don't fully understand why it is the way that it is, but I am happy that the other lead pastors that I talked to do not really view that as growth. Because it's not it's not it's not kingdom growth. And by the time the same thousand or so people go to their like seventh church, whichever one is the coolest, you're like, who cares? None of us are winning, right? So that's kind of my thought on that. Yeah. And again, it's so superficial and it's so tenuous. I mean, you're going to hold on to him as long as the last one did. And so you're going to be chasing your tail in that sense, beyond some of those maybe big picture things. What do you see as some of the biggest discipleship issues that you are contending with in the flock that God has called you to, to lead? Yeah. Biblical illiteracy and the, um, grandchildren or children, um, not literally of the seeker sensitive church are the two things that I'm kind of, um, doing my best to shepherd through. I noticed that most, um. I was blessed I got sent to, like, a Christian school when I was a kid. I we had Bible class and chapel every day. So I went to two hundred chapels a year for nine years and two hundred Bible classes a year for nine years. I went to eighteen hundred hours of Bible class. And I am just so blessed beyond blessed and beyond blessed to be able to attend Moody Bible Institute and study under some of the smartest people in the world, in my opinion. And so I don't say people are biblically illiterate, as in hey, you suck, you should learn the Bible more. What I'm saying is not individually, but culturally. Biblical illiteracy is a big problem, and I think the expectation that people will actually engage with their secret text or sacred text is missing. There is a complete and total disconnect between most areas of fandom and Christianity. And I think, again, to harp on the same thing again. I think it's because of the seeker sensitive movement and the way that that changed what people think. Basically, the way that that group thinks is whether they would say it or not is, hey, if we do like all of Galatians, including the circumcision parts, it's going to alienate some of our people. So let's just focus on the gospel and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you can see the parts of that that are really beautiful, caring about the lost, focusing on the gospel. But we can't focus on something at the expense of something else. Even though the gospel is more important than biblical literacy, they're not mutually exclusive because God's commanded us to do both of them. And so I started trying to figure out how to creatively teach people the Bible, because I noticed you talk to a Star Trek fan. There is an absolute expectation that you have engaged with the vast majority of the material. And there's no shame or guilt if they don't. If they haven't seen the original Gene Roddenberry series and you're at a Star Trek convention. They're not going to say to you, hey, you, you're a dum dum you need. Right? They're going to say, oh my gosh, you have to watch it. Oh my gosh, you have to watch it. It's this positive culture of drawing people into the content. And I think perhaps, maybe we've lost a little bit of that. I think perhaps because people think the Bible is overly complex, it is, but it's not more complicated than most people's hobbies. It's not more complicated than knowing how to fix a car or understanding the vorp statistic. In baseball, it's not more complicated than any of those things. And so those are the things I'm combating against. We started a Tuesday night Bible study at the church, and we had four hundred people come to the first one. It was we were studying Ezekiel chapter one. We studied all the way through the book of Ezekiel. It was about thirty seven weeks, and by the end there was about eighty people. And it was a pretty steady decline. And I say that to my church, it's a joke. And the thing is, I'm trying to get people to see is perhaps, perhaps there is not as much of an expectation that we will engage with and understand the sacred text that we've been given. Use the word engage. And I think that's a important differentiating word, because I think about my own life. And like you, I've been immersed in surrounded by Scripture my entire life. And yet I go in and out of what I would consider authentic engagement in the sense that it can become a dry routine and it can become just more information. And and yet there's not that degree of wrestling with and meditating and soaking it in and then of course, attempting to apply it. So can you extrapolate more of what you mean by biblical illiteracy? Is it literally just a lack of knowledge of the Bible itself, or is it deeper and more practical than that? Yeah, it's a couple of things. It's a lack of general knowledge of the collective teachings of the Bible. And that's how you get aberrant theology that trickles into the church. And I'm not talking about like people's view of the end times. There's lots of good views. I have one, but there's lots of other views that are perfectly valid. And then I think the second thing is, is many Protestants read the Bible completely ahistorically, meaning they don't know what a single person before the Protestant Reformation thinks about any of the texts. And I understand why it is that people do that. But, um, we don't have to figure out what any of the Bible means. All the amazing people have figured it out, and for some of the passages that are confusing, there's a couple great options. But for all the ones that are key and important, we know exactly what it means because. Right. You know, origin and Augustine and Saint John of the cross and Teresa of Avila, and Martin Luther and Charles Spurgeon. They all figured it out. It's fantastic. And when you detach history from it, history is not even close to the same level as the inspired text, but it's not nothing. And so I think that that's missing. And then I think people are missing, um, different ways to engage with the text. So it's a pretty long book. It's about ninety hours long. And I think number one, there's a season where we just read through the whole text like we're bingeing a show, and if we don't understand something, we just keep moving on. It's not like, uh, it's like watching a TV show. We're just we're engaging with the text. We don't have to understand every single thing. And then I think there's other seasons of super, super, super focused, like there is this verse that I don't understand, and I'm going to read this passage every single day and pray to God. And I want to understand this. I'm going to read every commentary and talk to everybody. And then there's seasons where we're focused on a book. I was in Psalms for like three years, and I taught a bunch of other stuff, but the only thing I read on my own time was Psalms for probably three years, because I was not doing well emotionally, and I found so much amazing stuff in there that God David would go and be like, he would just dump all of his emotions. Then he would turn his attention to God. And I was just like, this is the greatest thing ever. So anyways, all that to say, there's different ways to engage with the text. It's not like I read through the Bible in a year. Every year I read three chapters a day, every day. There's lots of different ways to do it. Sometimes I go through a season of just meditating on a verse for a couple of weeks. I would say also speaks to the role of the Holy Spirit in this. I think in my prayer life and how I have just there's there's the meta thought about prayer itself and the idea that I'll often pray, like, help me to pray like what? How? Help me to seek you in a way that would increase my view of you and deepen my intimacy with you. So it's like the prayer about prayer itself. And I think sometimes we forget to have those kinds of thoughts and those kinds of prayers where we say, this is a dynamic thing. I got my whole life kind of like a relationship, right? There's going to be different ways that I engage. And it might be we're just chilling, watching something. Other times it's going to be real deep and heart to heart. But but it's a dynamic, even Holy Spirit led process. It's because it becomes detached from the person, that it becomes a ritual that becomes dry, that then bears no fruit. Yeah, you're so right. You know, that's the Pharisees, right? Reading the Bible but not knowing Jesus is like, is like studying a treasure map, but never going and finding the treasure. I mean, they had the first five books of the Bible memorized to become a Pharisee. They couldn't even tell that God was standing five feet away from them. Yeah. So I'm all about anyone who wants to say, hey, just because you're reading the Bible doesn't mean blank. Absolutely. We have to be doing it correctly. I loved what you just said about prayer. I've encouraged people in my church, hey, we're going to confess our sins right now. And for some of us, we don't want to, but we want to want to. And you can start there in prayer. You can say to God, I don't want to do this, but I want to do what's right. Can you fill that space for me because I need help? Yeah. And that's where the heart of all of this is relationship. And recognizing that it is all a cultivation of intimacy with Jesus. And so even the notion that you just wouldn't be honest. It's like, I think there's a Simpsons quote where Bart says, I'm not going to try, but I'm going to try to try. It's kind of that same vibe, right? It's like he already knows, right? And I remember a season of my life where I sincerely felt like God was just saying, hey, how about we just try gratitude for a while? Just like, how about if the contents of your prayer were nothing but just reflecting on all of the good things I've given you and so good. It was such an important season because it reframed the entire thing not as a transactional experience, but through the lens of simply being with my dad and that being all that I needed to accomplish, so to speak. And then in that posture, he breathes new life and dynamics into it as the thing evolves and grows, which is great. That's right, that's right. To be honest, one of the reasons why I even found you, and I wouldn't be surprised if you get this all the time, is your viral post about the billboard? Oh, nice. And so I was just like, this is so great. And I think it so speaks to a heart that doesn't want to speak at or to people, but genuinely wants to know what they feel and think so we can meet them in that place. So could you just explain what that whole thing was and what the outcome of that was and why you did it? Yeah, I was watching this TV show called Nathan for you during Covid, and I was thinking, he does all these really cool, interesting. Like business stunts. And so just as a creative exercise, I thought, okay, so what is the Christian version of that where you do something and the attention that it brings is part of the experiment in order to gain eyes on an idea. That's what Nathan Nathan Fielder does in that show. And I thought, okay, so I wrote down a bunch of ideas and one of the ideas was, um, get a billboard that asks people what they think about Christians. And I had no idea what would happen or no idea how. I didn't have a teaching in mind. And I think that that's key for stuff like this, in my opinion, because I'm not trying to shift the information into anything. I was just like, I genuinely wonder what will happen. And so I put it up on the two hundred and two here for a couple of months, and it was all negative, probably like thirty. So the billboard was described Describe Christians in one word and a phone number. And so I was getting a ton of text messages and it was like, hypocrite, judgmental. We're the top two. And then I would say like ten percent of people would say something amazing, like loving. And pretty much everybody who sent in something positive, I would send back, are you a Christian? And almost all of them said, yes. And so I started learning something through that. The thing I learned through that was, well, Christians perception of themselves is different than other people's perception. And then I started getting a lot of pushback. People were like, yeah, because we know God and other people don't. And I'm just like, okay, we know what love is. And other people don't was the most, the most common thing. And so then I looked up what Jesus said. He said even Pharisees and tax collectors love. And I thought, I wonder which word he used for love. And the word was agape. He said, Jesus Christ, the Lord said, I found it real quick. I thought I would just throw it up there for the watching audience. There it is. That's so cool. It was a lot of fun. I bet it was. Sorry to interrupt. No, no, it's all good. Thanks for the picture. Jesus said even tax collectors and Pharisees agape each other. They love unconditionally. And so when Christians want to say no, no, people don't think we're loving because they don't know what love is. That's not what Jesus Christ the Lord said. Now, do I think that some people are agnostic and angry? Yes. Do I think that some people resent Jesus and are mean to Christians? Yes. Do I think there is an agenda to move Christianity out of the public square at the expense of things? Other things, yes, but but do the people around you experience you as patient, kind, long, long suffering these types of things? So anyways, then I was like, wow, this is really interesting. And then I put up another billboard that was like, hey, I'm sorry, Christians haven't been more loving, but Jesus is. And I put that one up in the exact same spot for a month, and there was nothing to do. There was no like, come follow me or anything. It just was there. And I thought, there will be a certain segment of people that saw this and texted in and they will still be thinking about it, or they will remember it, and maybe this will just be a slight gospel, right? Just a proclamation of the good news of Jesus to anyone who still cares what I. I was inspired by it on many levels, and hearing you explain the context makes it even even better. Why is this bridging of the gap between what I feel like has become a very dichotomized reality of our church world and our secular world, and there seems to be very little meaningful interactions like the one that you generated in quite a dramatic way. How do we inspire more of that? Like how do we inspire more genuine dialogue and really understanding. And where have our models gotten off, and how do you feel like we could learn from this? Because there's I think there's a lot of principles and nuggets in how you did that. Yeah. Could you expand on that a little bit? Totally. I mean, I think from my perspective, it's about being in the world, but not of the world. I like a lot of the writings of the early Desert Fathers and monks, but I don't think that that's a good thing to do with your life, because I don't think it matches Jesus command. I'm sure there are exceptions to what I'm saying, but generally speaking, I don't think that's something to aspire to. So what are the spaces that we're in? The temptation of postmodern internet society is I'm going to interact with a billion people for one second. You can't love someone in one second. So what is the spaces that you are in? What are your hobbies? Where is your job? Your neighborhood? What are the spaces that you are in? There are a lot of people that don't care what I think. They don't care what you think, but they care what someone who's listening or watching thinks. And so we don't have to love a billion people because we know that a billion people exist. I'm more thinking like your neighborhood. Would your neighbors ask you if they needed something? Have your neighbors seen the inside of your house? Then your work? Would your people at your work text you if they needed something? Then I think one of the most untapped spaces of having conversations like this is in your hobby space. For a lot of guys, it's sports, and you're in a lot of conversations. For a lot of other people, it's music. Those are the spaces that I'm in. I've been using a website called Rate Your Music Every Day for like, I don't know, sixteen or seventeen years now. And I have tons of friends that I've met on there. And, um, one guy even asked me to pray for him on there. I've never seen his face, but he was like, my wife just died and I need someone to pray for me. And I was like, this is so amazing. This is like the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. Like, a stranger knows that I will do this for them. And it made me so happy. So all that to say, I think the private individual conversations amongst people face to face where you are expressing the love of Jesus, I think that that is the way. Talk about the element of risk in this though, right? Because even your billboard idea required a level of like, okay, I saw this show, this moment of inspiration, but now I gotta go do this thing and I don't know what it's going to produce. You said you didn't necessarily have a plan for a lot of it, other than just this would be a wild experiment. So translating that into the context of the guy at his particular hobby or, you know, his neighborhood or whatever, there still is an element of having to present yourself in such a way that would make it known that you're the kind of person who's available for this kind of thing. So what does someone do to become known as that person? Well, I think it's being shrewd in conversation. So, um, specifically to surface the idea. I have noticed that the easiest way for me to start talking about faith is through what I do for work, and that's different for other people. But I literally ask everyone, everywhere I go what they do for work, and I don't only ask them, so they'll ask me back, I am curious, I do want to understand other jobs. I want to understand what makes people tick and what's interesting to them. But I have noticed that a lot of people will reciprocate and that will allow me to say, I teach the Bible for a living. Um, have you ever read it? Do you attend church anywhere? And these these conversations just blow wide open. And I would encourage people to think about something like that that you're genuinely curious about. It's not manipulative. You're not trying to blank and some sort of conversation opener. And what I've found is, is a lot of people are very interested in talking about faith from the perspective of I used to attend church or not. It's like a one degree separated from I am a Christian or I'm not, and they're really comfortable talking about that. And you can have some amazing conversations with people through that. And, um, I think it's a really it's kind of exciting. It's a really fun way of doing it. There's always a risk that people will be, you know, frustrated with what you're saying. But that type of question line, um, makes it a bit easier. Yeah. I don't know where I heard this or frankly, who I even heard this from, but it was like a social interaction expert speaking from a secular perspective, trying to combat the loneliness epidemic. And he was basically saying, be the kind of person that asks one more question than you want to ask. Make it an open ended question and watch the amount of social interactions you have explode. And so I've been I've been trying this as a as someone who I would you know, I'd say I'm somewhat on the introverted spectrum. Um, but I've been doing that where I'll, you know, get some guy comes in to, you know, and this is not even like your neighborhood or hobby. And I agree with you. That is the primary spot. But speaking just from a random interaction perspective, you'd be amazed. People are way more interested in talking even to a stranger than you might realize. And you ask one question or one more than you're necessarily comfortable with, and you find yourself in all sorts of amazing conversations with people who are desperately seeking to get past the superficial social interactions that they have. So when you say that, like like you said, you're in tends to be just what do you do? And you have the unique dichotomy of it's a challenge, because when you say, I'm a pastor, here we go. But it's also makes it very natural. So it's there's kind of two sides to it, Isn't it really just as simple as. Arm yourself with some great questions, with a genuine desire to know and love people and get to know them. And then just be open to wherever the Holy Spirit might take that. If it begins to open up in a spiritual direction. Yeah, I think you're right. And I think that Christians have been fairly criticized for lacking curiosity because we have this I go to heaven, he go to hell mentality. And it's like, yeah, unless he gets saved. And so I think feeding your curiosity and actually caring about. I started thinking, I've only ever worked at a church. I genuinely wonder how other people make money. I know like what their job titles are, but I don't know what they do all day. And I've just kept that little curiosity in my heart, and I have noticed that people don't ask men very often what they do. They don't ask them five ten questions about what they do. And it is really just it's kind. Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. And and I think also, you know, what I'm very interested in is learning how to have spiritual conversations. And it it starts with a foundational belief that we are, first of all, ubiquitously, spiritually curious, like we are all spiritually curious. I truly believe that in the sense of why am I here? Who am I? Where am I going? What's the point of all of this? Those are fundamentally spiritual questions, right? And then when you start with that premise that every person you're interacting with is spiritually curious, and then you train your mind to look at life through the lens of those questions. I think opportunities come up all the time, like I'm thinking about the Coldplay situation, right? These this couple caught out at this Coldplay concert, and if you view that through the lens of a spiritual conversation, you can say to your colleague or your neighbor, why do you think betrayal and trust and relationships and fidelity even matters to us? Like, why do you think it's such a big deal? You know, and there's layers to it and tangents to it. But I guess the point I'm trying to make is, is it part of this tuning your eyes to the sensitivity of people's spiritual curiosities and the constant opportunities in our world to have those conversations, even like music? Why do you why do we care? Like as highly evolved animals supposedly. Why do we care about music? Why does it move us? Why does it start movements and revolutions and riots? Like do you think part of it is kind of leaning your mind into those kinds of realities? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's such an it's such a fun way to live in the human race, is to think about the connections between the mundane and the eternal. And I think that that's one of the jobs of Christians. It's a job that artists and poets and painters understand. But it's a job that Christians don't always understand. And there is forever hidden in so many things. That's one of my favorite things to talk about with random people. Gratitude. You mentioned this ancient practice from scripture. It's mentioned like a trillion times in Psalms. Now the science shows that it is very, very beneficial to your brain. How intriguing. So, did did David guess that or did God tell him that? These things are very interesting to me? Meditation. Meditation is notably proven to benefit your brain. Wow. This is in scripture. I find these connections so intriguing, and there is a lot more ways to have a spiritual conversation with a person than to bring them to a point of do I or do they not want to become saved? Now, if the Lord asks me to do that, and I will do that. But there's also planting seeds, loving people, being kind and all of that stuff. How much do you think this is complicated by a overreaction to a Christian evangelistic culture that was so cookie cutter. Close the deal. Got to get the sale done. Five laws rather than more of a missional integrated. This is who I am. It's going to come up. I'm going to be the guy at the party that asks and talks about these things. But that almost scene is not, you know, it's not zealous enough. And so it's discounted as an approach when and so people have just gone, well, if I'm not going to be the five spiritual laws guy, maybe I'll just step out of this whole space altogether. Yeah, certainly there are spiritual gifts where the people that are great at them and are gifted in them pressure everyone else to do the same thing, and that's not beneficial. We are all called to be to evangelize, but we are not all gifted as evangelists. In the same way that the Lord has gifted, the Lord has gifted me to teach, and I'm super thankful to him for that because I love studying and teaching. But I'm not going to go into a room of people and be like, who are you teaching? Who are you teaching? Who are you teaching? We're all called to teach our families, but most people, that's not their gift. They don't have to do that. And the fixation on results in America, plus the promotion of the gift of evangelism has created that thing. I mean, how when was the last time that you were approached by a stranger talking to you? They had an agenda and a script, and that changed your mind, because that happens when I'm at the mall and people are handing me something and I immediately turn off, Right? And that happens with me at my front door. And we have a no solicitors sign. And I still try to be kind to those people. But it is frustrating to me, especially if I'm taking a nap and someone rings the doorbell and I'm like, I've purchased and installed this sign so that this doesn't happen, right? They have an agenda. They don't care about me as a person. Right. I think the greatest move of evangelism is in long term relationships, where your friendship is not on the line because the person in the mall is handing out that card. The person at the door is ringing my doorbell. Their desire to talk to me has nothing to do with anything except the sale. That's it. Once I say no, they walk away. That's it. There's nothing else to it. And if evangelism comes across like that, I don't think that's going to be a benefit to the Church of Jesus Christ in twenty twenty five and beyond. So rather, and I'm not saying that this type of evangelism shouldn't exist. I'm not saying God can't tell people to do it. I'm not saying that people shouldn't do it. I'm saying that the standard shouldn't be this elite version of it. And we also have to compare fruit, what's actually bearing fruit and put more energy into that. The ways that I see the most people, I've heard a billion testimonies and I want to hear a billion more, and the majority of people, number one, were taught by their parents and they got saved, or they made a profession and walked away from their faith and then came back, or they made a profession and walked away from their faith. Their life fell apart, and then they came back. That's probably eighty percent of the testimonies I've ever heard are one of those three things. And then after that, you hear about people who never knew Christ and blah, blah, blah. Kind of the more interesting testimonies. It's not mine, but it's perhaps the more interesting one. So if the majority of people that we've met who've gotten saved have gotten saved through family oriented ministry families coming to youth group, families coming to church together. Then this should be a thing that we focus on if we care about evangelism. And in addition to that, I think we need to just accept the fact that people are inherently distrustful of a person trying to sell them something. And so if society has moved away from that, how can we adapt? Because the method is not important. The message is important. Yeah. No you're right. I think it's a body of Christ thing. I think it's a calling thing. It's you know, I come from a weird family dynamic where, you know, my dad started this punk rock band in the eighties that is still going today, morphed and evolved a lot, but it goes all over the world. Big Public squares preaches the gospel, so it's definitely more on the extreme end. It's called No Longer music was the name of it, but it's this. It's this wild ministry thing. It's an amazing punk name. It more primarily just goes by the acronym NLM today. Um, and I, I creatively lead it. And so it's it's definitely more on that extreme end of bold proclamation evangelism and producing extraordinary, interesting testimonies. Um, but I, I just looked up the band. They have an album called No Sex. That was back in the eighties. Yeah. That's like one of the greatest things I've ever seen. Cover. The cover is awesome. I maybe buried the lead with you. I definitely buried the lead. I should have started there. The whole tone of the conversation would have been waving. I care about now, the second we are finished with this, I'm going to listen to the album No Sex. Oh, that's that's wild. And I love that. Yeah. So I buried the lead. I have a very strange, uh, family legacy in life. But as it relates to this dude, like, I, I completely agree that it it has to be the body of Christ. And it's about what has God called me to. And by and large, the role of the evangelist is unusual. And then the role of the sort of proclamation evangelist and the way we do it, it's probably even more rare. But can you just talk to the cost, though? Because I do think that we're foreigners and not citizens. You know, I was having a conversation with a guy not too long ago, and he works a lot with persecuted places, and he had this quote that was really haunting. And he said something to the effect of our lack of persecution is really just an indication of our silence. Like we are only not experiencing persecution because we are unwilling to speak. And, and it's it's really and so is there not still, despite all of that, giftings, callings, contexts a recognition that there is a picking up of my cross and there is a I'm going to be a foreigner for standing up against a prevailing mindset and spirit of our age. How do we not bury over that in a mountain of calling and context and. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think people mistake the difference for opposing ideas and opposing people. Like, yes, if someone says to me like, hey, what do you think about the idea of transgenderism being a completely accepted inner form of truth? I would say I don't believe that idea. I don't think that that's true. But when someone came to my office and said, hey, my sister's transgender, can I talk to you about it? You know, that's a very different thing. That's a person. It does not mean that I'm not going to say the truth. It just means that I really care about this person. And it's really important that this person understands that God loves them and all of this stuff. And, um, so I like to lead with truth, with ideas and grace, with people. And I think that that is a great way for, um, in my opinion, for Christians to stay in the public square, I don't want I genuinely don't want anyone to be condemned. It's not even the call of the church to condemn people outside of the church anyway. It's not our call to judge people outside of the church. But I will judge every idea. That's a fact, and I will make sure that every idea I believe is correct before I integrate it into my life. And, um, I don't think that should be mutually exclusive. I mean, I. Yeah. Yeah. And yet doing that is going to in a world that has inextricably linked ideas and people inseparably. Right. If you don't affirm my ideas, you don't affirm me. Right. And so we can say that. And yet it's going to put us in opposition to a world that has made, just for example, sexual identity. The fundamental thing we worship now in society, right? So they're correct. There is going to be a degree of and a cost that is just unavoidable if we're going to be faithful followers of Jesus today. Absolutely, absolutely. And there's no getting around it. No. But there is a way to not, like, dive into it as aggressively as possible, which I think is what we're both saying. Yeah, there's got to be something between fight and flight. Right? And I think that's a little bit of the challenge that you see. I think in the church you have people who say, okay, I'm taking this on. I'm going to all the bumper stickers, all of the articles, all of the things. That's me. I'm going to take it on. And then the other people are like, dude, I'm out, I'm out. No thanks, Paul. You know, what is it? Religion and politics. Out of parties. I'm gonna be that guy. And I think training people to be effective cultural apologists and witnesses for Christ in an organic way, while still embracing the cost of being different. Like you're just not. Popularity in following Jesus just are never going to be perfectly congruent, and you're going to have to embrace that to some degree. But you don't have to be a jerk in the process. I think that's what we're both trying to say. Yeah. Ah, man, I feel like I could go in so many directions, but I feel like every direction I have would take us like another hour and another tangent. So how about I just close with this? What are you feeling? Like what is burning on your heart? What what what things do you anticipate coming down the line that you are like, man, these are real concerns for the church and for the world. Just a light closer there before we totally we ride off into the night or whatever. Yeah. Before the end, just all of your thoughts on all of life and eternity. Um, I think that in 60s, if that's okay for social media. Absolutely. You know, we have to remember that Christianity is spiritual and that spirituality is the foundation of reality. And so Christianity is not just an intellectual consent to ideas. Christianity is a person and he has given us his spirit, and I would encourage every Christian to examine this idea. Have I interacted actually with the spirit, the Holy Spirit, or do I just believe true statements about him? And if I haven't, did Jesus not say, how much more will you will your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask in Luke eighteen? Okay. Well, I have to ask a follow up question to that. It's to two crucial for someone who maybe hears those words and is like, whoa, okay. You know, that whole depart from me, I never knew you? Is a very haunting verse for me. Mhm. Beyond asking and maybe asking is is all that it takes, but how does someone examine their heart in respect to that pretty intense idea? Yeah. I think we should recognize that naturalism, individualism and the enlightenment have convinced people that the only thing that's real is what they can see and touch. And Christianity is different than that. And so we should expect it to be as spiritual as the New Testament does and, um, not as a matter of salvation, but as a matter of abundant life in Christ. Well, said Lannon, I appreciate this man. It's been awesome. And, uh, I hope you enjoyed it as well. And how can we be praying for you in this next season? Uh, as a community here, how can we support you? Oh, pray for my church. Pray for me by name. That would mean a lot to me. I really, really, really, really would. And it really, really, really makes a difference. Okay, remind me of the name of your church again. Mission. Mission. Okay. Jesus, I thank you for my brother. I thank you for my new friend. Uh, and the way I've been blessed by his insight, his wisdom, his clear and obvious love for you. I pray, Jesus that you would bless him and his family in this next season. Being a pastor is no joke. It is. It is hard Work. It is tough soil and I know his heart yearns to see people grow and to move, and to be fully who you created them to be in and outside of the walls of the church. And so I pray for protection, Lord, that you would give him as much influence as his character could handle, and no more that you would continue to produce godly character in him, that his influence might be able to expand in great ways for your sake and your kingdom. I pray for his church for mission. Lord, I pray that they would be a place known for loving you, and that you would use your son to help lead them in that direction through the power of Your Holy Spirit and for your glory. We love you and thank you for this conversation. In Jesus name, Amen. Amen. Thank you so much. What an honor.