Sonny Sandoval (P.O.D.) | Why Real Faithfulness Doesn’t Look Like You Think

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What's up guys?
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Today's episode is awesome.
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I got to talk to Sunny Sandoval who's the lead vocalist at the platinum selling rock band POD.
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They have sold over 12,000,000 records worldwide.
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They've earned Grammy nominations and mainstream acclaim.

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And this is the second time he's been on the pod and he is an amazing guy.
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We talked about how to faithfully follow Jesus in a crazy rock and roll lifestyle, but also what it means to be a father and a husband.
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His story is amazing.
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His heart is even better, and you are going to be inspired by this conversation.
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I promise.

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So stick around for the entire thing, the beginning, the middle, the end.
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And if you do love it, which you will, share it.
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Share it with your friends, your family, your pets, your enemies.
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I mean, maybe, probably.
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Either way, you're gonna love it.

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I promise.
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And as always, this podcast is part of a missions organization called Steiger, and that matters because it embeds all these conversations in a larger movement of people around the world that are dedicating their lives to reaching those who would not walk into a church.
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And so all of this centers around this vibrant community that you can be a part of.
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If you go to steiger.org, steiger.0rg, you can find out how to join this worldwide movement and reach the world for Jesus.
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You are going to wanna check that out.

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I promise.
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And, well, I was gonna say share this, but you will share it.
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In fact, you probably already have.
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So let me thank you in advance for doing that.
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Subscribe wherever you listen.

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Alright.
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That's it.
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I hope you enjoy the conversation with all around awesome dude, Grammy nominated singer Sunny Sandoval from POD.
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You're listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast.
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Alright.

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Well, we're going.
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Sunny Sandoval, lead singer of legendary band POD.
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What's up, dude?

00:02:03 [Speaker 2]
What's up, I I put on my glasses so I can see you.

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That's good, man.
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You look very like, it looks like you're gonna say a lot of very deep things when you got those glasses.

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About that.

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I said looks like.
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You know?

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I was just giving you the benefit of

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the doubt.
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Hey.
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There are so many places I wanna go.
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It's been, man, I don't know, a couple of years at least since we've we've chatted.
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But the thing that I wanna start with, which is just the most important thing, dude, you have a day named after you.

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June 23, Sunny Sandoval Day in San Diego.
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That, how did that happen?
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That's pretty odd.

00:02:36 [Speaker 2]
I I have no idea, man.
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I I was actually I was doing a, a benefit, show in San Diego a couple couple years ago, and it was for my one of my best friend's wife, and she's going through cancer.
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Right?
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And so bills are piling up.
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And so I got all the San Diego musicians to come together that, you know, we're all a big, huge community.

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And then here we are having a great time raising money for this family, and then they present me or he presents me.
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I I'm just setting Santa up all day, and so it was incredible.
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But and then it ended up being, on the June 23, which is my mother's birthday.
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So they they they timed it just right.
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Yeah.

00:03:18 [Speaker 1]
That's cool.
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Yeah.
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So on July 4, we like barbecue and shoot off fireworks.
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What does one do on Sunny Sand of all day?

00:03:25 [Speaker 2]
I don't know.
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I like I wish every I can give everybody the day off.

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And and maybe the most important question is how does your wife feel about this?
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Like, is she gonna give you extra special treatment on this day?

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She always does then.
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It was great.
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We were we were all surprised, so it it was it was a beautiful day.
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Yeah.
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It was a beautiful day.

00:03:44 [Speaker 1]
Well, anyway, I, I know you're a a man of God, and and I know that it's probably kinda awkward on some levels, but it's cool to see you honored in that way.
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Yeah.
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Man, how how have you been?
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What's been going on in your life?
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What's on your heart?

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So much to talk about, but let's just start very open ended.
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What's going on with you?

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I mean, luckily, we've been been busy, you know, since the beginning of this year.
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We just Yeah.
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We went over to, Europe and supported God's Met for about five weeks.
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So that was a huge European tour.
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And then we came home and did a it was us and Seether and Nonpointe, and then now we're doing fly out dates.

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I'm doing, I I released a book in February, so I'll be I'm doing book book stuff, book events, in between.
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And then we fly back out to Europe the July for a few shows and festivals, and then come back and then do the Cedar Daughtry tour, to end off the year.

00:04:41 [Speaker 1]
That's awesome.
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Yeah.
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One thing I was talking about just before this was the sad reality that a lot of kids who grow up in missional environments or church environments often end up having a very distorted view of God and be very angry and upset.
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And as a dad and I know your son is on the road with you now.
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Right?

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Last year, he did, what was it, like, a internship, and then this year, he did a senior project right before he graduated.
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And so he was able to, you know, come out, get college, credit, the whole nine, and it was amazing.

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That's so cool.
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Talk talk to me about how you've navigated that.
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I know your life has been pretty intense, and you've been on the road.
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And how how have you navigated maintaining that intention and concern for your family in the midst of what must be, has been, and continues to be a pretty crazy life?

00:05:30 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
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I mean, he's you know, my my kids grew up in in all of this.
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You know what I mean?
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But once my my two older girls, you know, they would come out and fly on the road.
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I mean, during Ozzfest, all all that stuff.

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You know what I mean?
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But it was such a whirlwind for us.
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And, you know, obviously, when they got in their routine of of school and sports and stuff like that, you know, my wife, homeschooled them, and she was she was here to be with them, you know, when when I when I couldn't, I was gone.
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My son was born, you know, we we we decided that he was gonna come on the road with me, and I was gonna homeschool him from from the tour bus, you know, the the green room, the dressing room.
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And that happened for probably the first five, six years of his life, and then and then he got settled into, regular school.

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But, I mean, we've always been open with our kids.
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You know what I mean?
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Our relationship with God is open.
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It's it's just like you were saying.
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Sometimes when when you come from preaching families, they they take on a burden, you know.

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I think their intentions are good because they they have a desire that the world knows Jesus the way we know.
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But sometimes it becomes a a a burden and and a mission, and then they, you know, their kids are forced into it, and they never have any freedom.
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They're not even enjoying their life.
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They're not even knowing who God is in the moment.
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It's just like they're just these worker bees.

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You know what I mean?
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And when so my kids have always been out on the road.
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Obviously, you guard their heart, and it's rock and roll.
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You know what I mean?
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But at the same time, we're not afraid of our own shadows.

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And and so because we we know who we are, and I allow my kids to fall in love, with Jesus for themselves.
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It's not a forced thing.
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You know?
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It's it's just a lived thing.
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And and if anything, they see it more on the road because they're exposed to a lot of things that go on the road, still guarding their heart.

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It's not like I'm giving them a free fall to, you know, to just jump into whatever.
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I have still gotta be a daddy, you know.
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But but they see it.
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But they it it and I I think our our faith and even scripture starts to make more sense because, you know, they start to realize even in the early age that, man, this world is kinda crazy, and and people are lost, and they some people don't have meaning.
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You know?

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And so so for us being a faith, it's like, it's not a forced thing.
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It's like, the best we can do is live our life out so that people say, man, I I'm down.
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I I I I can see it on you guys, you know.
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And it so it's not it's not a burden.
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It's it's never been that way from from my family.

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And being out, we've made so many great relationships.
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You know how many rock and roll bands I I go to festivals now.
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I go to shows and they're like, how's justice, man?
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How's the kids?
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And it's like we collect on a human level, but they know 100% what I believe in.

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It's that's never been it's never been hidden.
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You know what I mean?
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Because I'm but I'm also vulnerable, and then I I don't go in like I'm some, you know, this, this this this Christian giant or I you know what I mean?
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Some spiritual giant, like, I have it all figured out.
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They're just seeing me and and me being a daddy, a husband, a friend, you know, and trying to make some rock and roll music.

00:08:34 [Speaker 1]
There's so much about what you said that resonates with me.
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I feel like what's so key is that you're the same on stage as you are off stage.
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Yep.
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Right?
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And I think so often in ministry, we put on this persona, and our kids can see through it.

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Yes.
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Right?
00:08:49 [Speaker 2]
Yes.

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They because they see you all the time.

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And so if

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they see a big difference, that's a huge problem.
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Right?

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Huge.
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Well, and I and I never I mean, I guess I guess I've had a I've had a view behind the church curtain and in front for so long.
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You know what I mean?
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And and and even to this day, I still wrestle with a lot of it.
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You know what I mean?

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When I

00:09:10 [Speaker 1]
Of course.

00:09:11 [Speaker 2]
Get with my my bros and we vent.
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You know what I mean?
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About church and about Christians and all this stuff.
00:09:17 [Speaker 2]
We we do the same thing, but but I've also you know, I I've I've been a Christian for a long time where I I I can just go to God by myself.
00:09:27 [Speaker 2]
You know, I could ask my own questions.

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You know what I mean?
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I'm not I'm not intimidated by, you know, guys that can quote a million scriptures at me or, you know, I've been a pastor for thirty years.
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It's like, that doesn't mean anything to me.
00:09:41 [Speaker 2]
I mean, it does respectfully, but I've I've seen the mightiest of men fall.
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I see the mightiest of men who are deceitful and wicked and come in the name of God to and it's nothing but a a a money grab or a money gain.

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You know?
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I I've I've seen it all.
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But if anything, it makes me have more grace, and I'm just like, oh, I think I know that it's but it allows me to to recognize that that's not God.
00:10:06 [Speaker 2]
I think I think a lot of problems with people and even people that we know, Christians that we know that grew up in religious homes or they never really had that freedom, at the end of the day, when they're fed up or they've been weighed down so much, they're just like, I'm done with it all.
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I don't want anything to do with God.

00:10:21 [Speaker 2]
It's like, that's not God, bro.
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That's the dude next door to you.
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That's the that's the same, you know, dorks that have been going to church with you your whole life and that they just don't have a they don't have a grasp on life.
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And and they're and they're using the God card, you know, to to to steer their way through this world.
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And it's like, nah.

00:10:40 [Speaker 2]
That's that's not freedom.
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And so, yeah, you have to be open with it.

00:10:45 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:10:46 [Speaker 1]
They're rejecting this fake religious thing.

00:10:49 [Speaker 2]
And I get it.
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I don't want it.
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I I don't I don't want that.
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And that's what the world sees too.
00:10:53 [Speaker 2]
You know?

00:10:54 [Speaker 2]
I think we talked about this before where it's like, well, I got I got sick of defending Christianity because I'm and and to to to people out in in the rock and roll world because it's like, dude, you know what?
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You're right, dude.
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We are hypocrites.
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You know what?
00:11:06 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.

00:11:07 [Speaker 2]
You know what?
00:11:07 [Speaker 2]
That is wrong.
00:11:08 [Speaker 2]
And and I don't like the way that these people act.
00:11:11 [Speaker 2]
You're you're absolutely right.
00:11:13 [Speaker 2]
But then but then I can also say, but that's not Jesus, man.

00:11:16 [Speaker 2]
We just we're dude, we're so flawed.
00:11:19 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:11:20 [Speaker 2]
But Christians walk around like we're not.
00:11:23 [Speaker 2]
We walk around like we got it all figured out.
00:11:25 [Speaker 2]
We got it.

00:11:25 [Speaker 2]
We walk around like, you know, we're I mean, we get saved on Sunday, and then, you know, we're in a baptized in a in a ministry, and we know it all by the next Sunday.
00:11:35 [Speaker 2]
You know?
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And then and then falling away by the next Sunday.
00:11:38 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:11:39 [Speaker 2]
It's it's kinda silly, bro.

00:11:41 [Speaker 2]
But It is.
00:11:42 [Speaker 2]
But I think I and I think we have to recognize that the world sees that.
00:11:46 [Speaker 2]
And so I think we should all just be honest and vulnerable.
00:11:49 [Speaker 2]
And at the end of the day, you know, I am saying, I don't have it figured out.
00:11:52 [Speaker 2]
But, boy, I love Jesus, man, and I believe it.

00:11:55 [Speaker 2]
I believe it with all of my heart.
00:11:57 [Speaker 2]
If we could just talk or have a discussion about it.
00:11:59 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:12:00 [Speaker 2]
Stop pointing the fingers at religious people or at the church or Christians and just and and read scripture and know and know God for yourself.
00:12:09 [Speaker 2]
It's a whole different relationship.

00:12:11 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:12:11 [Speaker 1]
That's so good.
00:12:12 [Speaker 1]
And you, you know, just to stick on this theme of parenting for a second, I know not everyone listening their parents, but, you know, one thing that you said that was so profound is you brought your kids into the real world.
00:12:23 [Speaker 1]
That was your workplace.
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And and now you were their dad, and you cared about them.

00:12:28 [Speaker 1]
But what they needed to see was that Jesus is relevant in the world that my dad occupies.

00:12:34 [Speaker 2]
100%.

00:12:35 [Speaker 1]
That he's not just, like, relevant on Sunday morning and Wednesday night, but then not relevant at all the rest of the time.
00:12:42 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:12:42 [Speaker 1]
So isn't so much of this about yes.
00:12:46 [Speaker 1]
Sin is destructive.
00:12:47 [Speaker 1]
The world has destructive aspects to it, but, man, Jesus loves these people, and he's relevant to these people.

00:12:52 [Speaker 1]
And I think what you did was so brilliant because that helped them recognize that and didn't shelter them from that in a negative way.

00:12:59 [Speaker 2]
100%.
00:13:00 [Speaker 2]
And but I but I think it's not like I yes.
00:13:02 [Speaker 2]
You're so right, and I have it figured out, and that's why I did it.
00:13:05 [Speaker 2]
It was like, I took my son on the road because I because I needed him, and or I I needed I needed that.
00:13:12 [Speaker 2]
I I want I wanted to to I you know, even at that time in my career, there was such a balance where I'm like, I didn't want anything to do with music anymore, and I was like, I'm so sick of all this stuff.

00:13:22 [Speaker 2]
And if anything, when he was with me, it just made me focus and concentrate on dude.
00:13:28 [Speaker 2]
My my number one job is to be a daddy.
00:13:31 [Speaker 2]
That's it.
00:13:32 [Speaker 2]
The the burden of having to save the world or or, you know, everybody sees Oh, Sonny or POD.
00:13:37 [Speaker 2]
They're the Christian guys.

00:13:38 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:13:38 [Speaker 2]
You know, they're that Christian band.
00:13:40 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:13:40 [Speaker 2]
So we have to be so proper and march in a straight line so that we don't stumble anybody, so that we don't misrepresent all these things that after a while kinda weighs you down.
00:13:50 [Speaker 2]
Instead of being honest and saying, dude, I don't have it figured out, bro.

00:13:53 [Speaker 2]
I'm just but just because I I I claim to know Jesus doesn't mean I have it all figured out, man.
00:13:59 [Speaker 2]
So when when my son was there, it it really took away the burden of having to go out and be perfect.
00:14:05 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:14:06 [Speaker 2]
Like like like like, who who was I to ever think that I was the poster child for Christianity in the first place?
00:14:12 [Speaker 2]
You know what I'm saying?

00:14:13 [Speaker 2]
But I stopped feeling that way or or maybe I was guilted into that, you know, by religion, by the church.
00:14:20 [Speaker 2]
And maybe I just after a while, I just stopped not caring about it, but it was more important to me.
00:14:27 [Speaker 2]
I mean, if I'm being honest, you know what, dude?
00:14:29 [Speaker 2]
Hey.
00:14:29 [Speaker 2]
If it's between the world and my son, I'm gonna pick my son.

00:14:32 [Speaker 2]
I'm gonna pick my kid.
00:14:33 [Speaker 2]
And I'm not I'm not saying that as as if I don't care.
00:14:35 [Speaker 2]
But it made me shift my my focus on, dude, I'm okay.
00:14:39 [Speaker 2]
I'm out here.
00:14:40 [Speaker 2]
I can't save anybody.

00:14:42 [Speaker 2]
I can't save any of these and you know what?
00:14:43 [Speaker 2]
Everybody's responsible for their own lives and what they do and their actions and consequences, but my son is only five years old, you know, and he's with me.
00:14:53 [Speaker 2]
I have to be the best daddy that I can.
00:14:55 [Speaker 2]
And and when I started to do that, people started to see just me being a daddy.
00:15:02 [Speaker 2]
And and it really made me living out my my faith so much easier because I was I wasn't burdened with the fact that I have to be a certain way.

00:15:12 [Speaker 2]
It was like, no, dude.
00:15:12 [Speaker 2]
I'm just I just forget not trying to mess up as being a Christian.
00:15:16 [Speaker 2]
I don't wanna mess up as being a dad.
00:15:18 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:15:18 [Speaker 2]
I'm gonna mess up as being a Christian.

00:15:20 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:15:21 [Speaker 2]
But I gotta at least try my hardest not to mess this dad thing up.
00:15:25 [Speaker 2]
And and people started to see that.
00:15:27 [Speaker 2]
And and I it'd be the end of the tour, and, you know, all the bands and and crew guys would come up and be like, dude, thank you for sharing your your son with us, man.
00:15:36 [Speaker 2]
This past two months is it's I love watching you and your son interact, and I I just love seeing you guys at catering.

00:15:43 [Speaker 2]
And I'm not even trying.
00:15:44 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:15:45 [Speaker 2]
But Yeah.
00:15:46 [Speaker 2]
But that love of God is coming out and people are seeing it.
00:15:49 [Speaker 2]
But that reminds you again that it has to do with Jesus.

00:15:53 [Speaker 2]
It doesn't have anything to do with me.
00:15:55 [Speaker 2]
I'm I'm just trying I'm just trying my best.

00:15:58 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:15:58 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:15:59 [Speaker 1]
And nothing will strip you of the delusion of your own perfection like being a dad.

00:16:06 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:16:06 [Speaker 2]
Exactly.
00:16:06 [Speaker 2]
I mean, it

00:16:07 [Speaker 1]
it instantly makes you feel, like, inadequate and helpless.

00:16:10 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:16:12 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.

00:16:12 [Speaker 1]
No.
00:16:12 [Speaker 1]
And it's I think it's part of why the tragedy of so many people opting out of family and out of kids is they lose all of what you just described where there's this beautiful grounding and crystallizing of ultimately the simplicity of what matters most.
00:16:30 [Speaker 1]
Like, yeah, you're trying to reach a lot of people.
00:16:32 [Speaker 1]
You care.
00:16:33 [Speaker 1]
But, man, there's something so profound in going, I don't wanna mess this up.

00:16:37 [Speaker 1]
It it kind of helps reduce the scope of what you're even Yeah.
00:16:42 [Speaker 1]
Kind of capable of, which is, man, I got I I can barely handle myself, let alone this precious life.
00:16:47 [Speaker 1]
And it's just so grounding.
00:16:49 [Speaker 1]
Right?
00:16:49 [Speaker 1]
It's just

00:16:49 [Speaker 2]
100%.
00:16:50 [Speaker 2]
But that's honest, bro.
00:16:51 [Speaker 2]
That's honest in in saying that.
00:16:53 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:16:54 [Speaker 2]
How how many times, you know, do in in my walk and in my years do I come across pastor's kids or or missionary kids and stuff that their family was so focused on, you know, they're they're in this mindset of saving the world and doing all these things that their own kids are falling by the the wayside.

00:17:14 [Speaker 2]
And I I've I've run across so many people, and and that and I'm learning that too because it's it's great intention and and the hardest, like you said, we do I wanna see everybody come to know Jesus like like I know.
00:17:27 [Speaker 2]
And I wanna see everybody at peace and and happy and and find themselves in God, you know, but I have to make sure that I'm doing that, you know, even with my own family first.
00:17:38 [Speaker 2]
And so the intention is good because you you really do wanna see the world come to know God, but it's not your burden.
00:17:43 [Speaker 2]
Even if you're a pastor, even if you are a missionary, if you the moment you decided to get married and have kids, you know, it's like it starts there first.

00:17:54 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:17:54 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:17:55 [Speaker 1]
And I think reflecting on life with the end in mind.
00:17:59 [Speaker 1]
Right?
00:18:00 [Speaker 1]
Because when I think about my life and I've gotten to do some incredible things and see the world and and be on the stage and all these different things, but I know, as I know with you

00:18:09 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:18:09 [Speaker 2]
That the

00:18:10 [Speaker 1]
thing you're gonna care about most at the end of it all is did I love Jesus?
00:18:14 [Speaker 1]
Did I love my wife?
00:18:15 [Speaker 1]
Did I love my kids?
00:18:17 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:18:17 [Speaker 1]
And if you didn't check those three boxes Yeah.

00:18:19 [Speaker 1]
If you didn't give absolutely your best to those three

00:18:22 [Speaker 2]
What's the

00:18:23 [Speaker 1]
Nothing else you did matters.
00:18:25 [Speaker 1]
No.
00:18:25 [Speaker 1]
Nothing matters.
00:18:26 [Speaker 1]
Right?
00:18:26 [Speaker 1]
And so it's like for me, it's like Augustine talks about ordering your loves.

00:18:30 [Speaker 1]
It's not that these things are wrong.
00:18:32 [Speaker 1]
No.

00:18:33 [Speaker 2]
But if

00:18:33 [Speaker 1]
they're out of order, they're wrong.

00:18:35 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.

00:18:35 [Speaker 1]
And so you can't love Jesus less than your wife or you won't love her like you should, and and you can't love the world less than you love your wife or you won't love them like you should.

00:18:45 [Speaker 2]
Yes.

00:18:45 [Speaker 1]
And so it's not it's this not this false dichotomy, right, of of wealth.
00:18:49 [Speaker 1]
I I gotta either choose, the world or my kid well, that's ridiculous.
00:18:52 [Speaker 1]
No.
00:18:52 [Speaker 1]
No.
00:18:52 [Speaker 1]
No.

00:18:52 [Speaker 1]
It's about the order.

00:18:54 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:18:54 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:18:54 [Speaker 2]
And we're and we're we're constantly learning that.
00:18:57 [Speaker 2]
And, unfortunately, when you do get older, you, you know, you start to slow down a little bit, and you're like, oh my gosh.
00:19:03 [Speaker 2]
It is really so so simple.

00:19:06 [Speaker 2]
You know.
00:19:06 [Speaker 2]
But I get it.
00:19:07 [Speaker 2]
I mean, those of us that really do have a calling and feel like they have to, you know, they wanna reach the world for Jesus, because like I said, it's it's not a burden, but, you know, it's you're it's a calling, and you and you wanna see that happen.
00:19:23 [Speaker 2]
But when you do have a wife and you have kids, it's like there there is such a balance.
00:19:28 [Speaker 2]
And and I I think, like I said before, when when people I just allowed people to see me loving my kids and and my son on the road, it spoke louder than any any preaching, bro.

00:19:39 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:19:40 [Speaker 2]
Any any type of ministry that I thought I was doing or I I wanted to do, they just saw me being a daddy first, and that was that was refreshing.
00:19:49 [Speaker 2]
That was refreshing to a lot of these guys on the road because it was reminding them that, yeah, a lot of these guys do have families at home.
00:19:56 [Speaker 2]
A lot of these guys know the difference between right and wrong and who they hope to be and wanna be, but they're also, you know, they're also divided by this thing we called rock and roll.
00:20:07 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?

00:20:07 [Speaker 2]
Because they're they're still living out their fantasies.
00:20:10 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:20:11 [Speaker 2]
But and then trying to have that side of their life as well.
00:20:14 [Speaker 2]
And all of a sudden, I'm bringing my kid right into, you know, rock and roll.
00:20:19 [Speaker 2]
It's like, oh, wow.

00:20:20 [Speaker 2]
Okay.
00:20:21 [Speaker 2]
Well, I guess, you know, maybe I should check myself.

00:20:25 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:20:26 [Speaker 1]
There's a when you kinda talk about the band and the label of Christian and the tension that that creates,

00:20:34 [Speaker 2]
you can

00:20:35 [Speaker 1]
feel it.

00:20:35 [Speaker 2]
You can

00:20:35 [Speaker 1]
feel it in your voice.
00:20:36 [Speaker 1]
You can feel it in that way.
00:20:37 [Speaker 1]
You've described it in various places.
00:20:40 [Speaker 1]
And yet I don't think you disagree that art and music, and I would add to that now content and social media and all these platforms, they come with an unparalleled ability to communicate something.

00:20:52 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.

00:20:52 [Speaker 1]
How have you wrestled with that tension of not wanting to kind of carry a burden that no human being can carry and not being confined to a box that perhaps would limit you?
00:21:03 [Speaker 1]
And yet at the same time, be faithful with the platform that God has given you and the opportunity that he, I think, wants us to take advantage of to tell people the truth through whatever platform God may or may not give us.

00:21:16 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:21:17 [Speaker 2]
I think in all my, you know, the last thirty three years, I think whenever I've tried to force it or I felt a certain pressure that I was supposed to do a certain way, I've learned just even in in experience that I look back and I I I cringe at a lot of stuff, bro, because it was me trying to it's almost like you're just doing what what religious people tell you to do rather than be your authentic self and genuine, and and even believe that that that's enough.
00:21:47 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:21:48 [Speaker 2]
Believe that my regular, vulnerable conversation with somebody when I when I'm intentional in the back of my mind like, you you know these things when you know hurting people, and you're like, sometimes people just wanna be hurt.
00:21:59 [Speaker 2]
And then sometimes people are like, I know that, no.

00:22:01 [Speaker 2]
I I I'm gonna share the Lord with this person because they really need it.
00:22:05 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:22:07 [Speaker 2]
And you're intentional with it.
00:22:08 [Speaker 2]
But now even thirty two years later, it's an open book.
00:22:11 [Speaker 2]
People know that I that I love the Lord, that that, you know, I try I try my best.

00:22:16 [Speaker 2]
So now it's not like it's a hidden thing when, you know I was at a show yesterday, and I have a conversation.
00:22:21 [Speaker 2]
This lady this girl came up to me telling me how she was on drugs for so many years, and she heard me.
00:22:27 [Speaker 2]
She said sermon, but I think it was just me sharing on on some interview.
00:22:31 [Speaker 2]
This was, like, nine years ago, and it was it was broadcasted on the radio.
00:22:37 [Speaker 2]
And she was telling me how she was tweaked out of her mind, and she still remembers that.

00:22:41 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:22:42 [Speaker 2]
So now people just know this, and then I can just have honest conversations with them.
00:22:47 [Speaker 2]
But it's not I don't go in there, like, to make a spectacle or a scene.
00:22:50 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:22:51 [Speaker 2]
Some people just wanna they wanna be seen that way.

00:22:53 [Speaker 2]
I'm I'm more intentional with one on one, but it's also just an experience and a discernment that we have as believers, you know, from just walking with the Lord for such a long time.
00:23:03 [Speaker 2]
But I think when you're dishonest with people and genuine, they can sense that.
00:23:07 [Speaker 2]
But if you're just I'm not the and I needed to be the Lord.
00:23:10 [Speaker 2]
I'm not gonna walk into a room.
00:23:11 [Speaker 2]
Let me tell you all about Jesus, and this is what you need.

00:23:14 [Speaker 2]
Here's the five steps you need to do.
00:23:16 [Speaker 2]
That's I'm so sick of that step.
00:23:18 [Speaker 2]
Because those are the kind of people that just walk and say and then now now they're filming themselves Yeah.
00:23:22 [Speaker 2]
And saying, look look what I did.
00:23:24 [Speaker 2]
Look at how I serve the Lord.

00:23:25 [Speaker 2]
I'm I'm a true follower of God because I'm not compromising.
00:23:28 [Speaker 2]
I'm unashamed of the gospel, and they're doing all they're doing all these things for show or to make themselves feel better.
00:23:35 [Speaker 2]
But for me, it's it's a long it's kinda like the long haul game, you know.
00:23:39 [Speaker 2]
And and I believe being on stage for thirty three years, you know, I'm I'm a seed caster, bro.
00:23:45 [Speaker 2]
Like, obviously, I have my one on ones and and my my personal relationships, but I just believe that for years, I've been able to go up there and just throw seeds out into the world, saying God loves you.

00:23:55 [Speaker 2]
He's for you.
00:23:55 [Speaker 2]
I mean, he he he knows you.
00:23:57 [Speaker 2]
He wants you to know him, you know.
00:23:59 [Speaker 2]
And and, bro, you and luckily, I've been able to see things in and out, in confirmations in the last thirty three years that says, you know, hey, dude.
00:24:08 [Speaker 2]
Just just just trust God and and stick with me, and I might not ever know, you know, how it all turns out until the end.

00:24:15 [Speaker 2]
But for now, I'm Yeah.
00:24:16 [Speaker 2]
I'm just staying faithful.

00:24:17 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:24:17 [Speaker 1]
I think, ultimately, it's a vine and a branch thing.
00:24:20 [Speaker 1]
Right?
00:24:21 [Speaker 1]
Like, God doesn't call you necessarily to do x, y, and z other than remain in him Yeah.
00:24:26 [Speaker 1]
And foster and fuel that ongoing connection and intimacy with Jesus.

00:24:32 [Speaker 1]
And then out of that, do whatever he is asking you to do.
00:24:37 [Speaker 1]
I think part of the tension in my mind is a couple of things.
00:24:41 [Speaker 1]
I think, one, just the urgency.
00:24:43 [Speaker 1]
Right?
00:24:44 [Speaker 1]
Like, the the world is crazy, and people are dying and desperate.

00:24:48 [Speaker 1]
And Yeah.
00:24:49 [Speaker 1]
I think if we fully felt the weight of that, we'd be immobilized.
00:24:52 [Speaker 1]
Right?
00:24:52 [Speaker 1]
We couldn't even get out of bed because we would just if we could hear the spiritual screaming all around us, I think it would be overwhelming.

00:25:00 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.

00:25:00 [Speaker 1]
So we can't we can't completely live under that weight.
00:25:02 [Speaker 1]
And yet at the same time, I look at the Paul, and there was a this is all that matters.
00:25:08 [Speaker 1]
Christ in him crucified.
00:25:09 [Speaker 1]
Like, I consider all else garbage.
00:25:11 [Speaker 1]
And so I guess I'm just trying to find that tension.

00:25:15 [Speaker 1]
There is there a nonreligious, non, self motivated, healthy spiritual pressure

00:25:23 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:25:24 [Speaker 2]
To

00:25:24 [Speaker 1]
take advantage of every opportunity to tell people what really matters?

00:25:27 [Speaker 2]
1100%.
00:25:29 [Speaker 2]
I mean, you know, the the the more that we or the I think the longer that I've walked with the Lord, you know, and the more intimate of a relationship you have.
00:25:40 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:25:40 [Speaker 2]
And then you start to see it's just it's just a wisdom.
00:25:43 [Speaker 2]
It's a spirit.

00:25:44 [Speaker 2]
Even when you you see the world how it is, your heart should break.
00:25:48 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:25:48 [Speaker 2]
I I never wanna be I mean, I see Christians that they, you know, they look at the world and their nose is up and because they're so disgusted with all the sin and how crazy this world is.
00:25:57 [Speaker 2]
Like, I I think opposite.
00:25:59 [Speaker 2]
I I I look at the world and I'm like because I know that god he desires that no one should perish.

00:26:05 [Speaker 2]
And I'm looking at the world even even though I could sit there and be like, man, this world is wild.
00:26:09 [Speaker 2]
It's crazy.
00:26:10 [Speaker 2]
It's lost.
00:26:12 [Speaker 2]
There's at the forefront of all that, my heart is still saying the world needs Jesus.
00:26:17 [Speaker 2]
They've always needed Jesus.

00:26:19 [Speaker 2]
They they'll continue to need to need Jesus.
00:26:21 [Speaker 2]
So, yeah, when you see that or not only is it the, hey, man.
00:26:25 [Speaker 2]
This world needs Jesus.
00:26:26 [Speaker 2]
I have to tell them.
00:26:27 [Speaker 2]
Or it's like, there's another urgency that's like, dude, you don't understand.

00:26:32 [Speaker 2]
It's not how it's not what you've been taught.
00:26:34 [Speaker 2]
It's not it's not what you've been shown.
00:26:35 [Speaker 2]
God is so good.
00:26:37 [Speaker 2]
He's so amazing.
00:26:38 [Speaker 2]
He's so cool.

00:26:39 [Speaker 2]
I just want you to know him.
00:26:41 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:26:42 [Speaker 2]
But that's that's where the spirit of discernment comes in.
00:26:45 [Speaker 2]
You know, I'll I'll never if if I if if I felt like the spirit told me to walk up to somebody right now and share the gospel, I would with Yeah.
00:26:53 [Speaker 2]
Instantly.

00:26:54 [Speaker 2]
But I also believe that sometimes the spirit is saying, hey.
00:26:57 [Speaker 2]
Just let him see your life.

00:26:59 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:26:59 [Speaker 1]
You know

00:26:59 [Speaker 2]
what I mean?
00:27:00 [Speaker 2]
So there's not so in that way, I in in both situations, I know that God is in control.
00:27:06 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:27:07 [Speaker 2]
And I and I know that it's natural when it happens that way.
00:27:11 [Speaker 2]
Sometimes, you know, I've I've had people strangers come up to me and not even knowing my band or anything and and ask me questions.

00:27:20 [Speaker 2]
And then and then and then I'm all of a sudden, I'm sharing with them the gospel.
00:27:22 [Speaker 2]
And then when I I leave, I'm like, see, that's what it I want it to be.
00:27:26 [Speaker 2]
I want it to be the Lord.
00:27:28 [Speaker 2]
I don't want it to be me walking up to some stranger.
00:27:30 [Speaker 2]
Hey.

00:27:31 [Speaker 2]
Do you know Jesus?
00:27:31 [Speaker 2]
You know they died in the Yeah.
00:27:32 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:27:33 [Speaker 2]
It's like a pressure thing.
00:27:34 [Speaker 2]
You know?

00:27:35 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:27:36 [Speaker 2]
But but if if someone comes up to you and ask a stranger, bro, and ask you about Jesus, you don't they don't know who you are.
00:27:42 [Speaker 2]
You don't know who they are.
00:27:43 [Speaker 2]
To me, that's, like, that that's cool, dude.
00:27:45 [Speaker 2]
That's undeniably the Lord right there.

00:27:48 [Speaker 1]
I love first Peter three fifteen where it says, be prepared to give a defense for the hope that is in you.
00:27:55 [Speaker 1]
And I don't know why it took me so long to focus on the word hope.
00:27:59 [Speaker 1]
It doesn't say be prepared to give a defense for all of the good ideas you have or all the Bible verses you've memorized or all the perfect theology you have or all Yeah.
00:28:07 [Speaker 1]
It says the hope.

00:28:09 [Speaker 2]
The hope.

00:28:09 [Speaker 1]
Right?
00:28:10 [Speaker 1]
And and in a way, there's almost a passive element to that where it's like you're ready, but you're you're not necessarily the one who's, like, ramming down the door.
00:28:19 [Speaker 1]
Now, again, for me, I guess the tension is just, like, I know myself, bro, and, like, I don't wanna do hard things.
00:28:25 [Speaker 1]
I don't wanna look foolish.
00:28:26 [Speaker 1]
I don't wanna be rejected.

00:28:27 [Speaker 1]
I don't you know what I mean?
00:28:28 [Speaker 1]
And so part of me is cognizant of that, and and yet I know the difference in my spirit when it's out of love to in obedience to Jesus Yeah.
00:28:37 [Speaker 1]
And when it's out of self righteous guilt.

00:28:39 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.

00:28:40 [Speaker 1]
And sometimes I've been motivated out of self righteous guilt, and it's been wrong.
00:28:43 [Speaker 1]
And other times, I just feel like out of a love for my dad, he's saying, Ben, I want you to care more about them than your reputation.
00:28:50 [Speaker 1]
Will you be willing to look foolish for me?

00:28:53 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.

00:28:53 [Speaker 1]
And so it's that tension I'm wrestling with.
00:28:55 [Speaker 1]
You know?

00:28:55 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:28:55 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:28:57 [Speaker 2]
100%, bro.
00:28:59 [Speaker 2]
But I think I think you I I think we recognize that voice.
00:29:04 [Speaker 2]
And, you know, in in our older years, and I think it it takes time, and and but that's why God is so patient.

00:29:09 [Speaker 2]
I think when we feel all that pressure in the beginning, a lot of that is immaturity as well.
00:29:14 [Speaker 2]
And and we just again, we think we're doing the steps of Christianity when it's like, God is patient.
00:29:20 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:29:21 [Speaker 2]
He wants to walk he's walking with us.
00:29:23 [Speaker 2]
He wants us to recognize that.

00:29:24 [Speaker 2]
And and here I am now all these years later, and I could still say, you know, I don't I'm I'm I'm I'm still walking with God.
00:29:32 [Speaker 2]
I love God more than ever, but it's just because of the the time that I have in this and and getting to know him.
00:29:40 [Speaker 2]
And so I'm I'm willing to do whatever, you know, and and I wanna finish I and I just wanna finish this, you know, in God's timing and what he wants to do.
00:29:49 [Speaker 2]
And, you know, I'm grateful, and I I believe this platform is it's incredible.
00:29:54 [Speaker 2]
I I didn't ask for it.

00:29:55 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:29:55 [Speaker 2]
And there's many times when I asked to to give it back, you know, but here I am now and still loving people and the relationship that I've created with so many people, you know, not only rock stars and people in the celebrity world, but just friends and fans all over the world, you know.
00:30:13 [Speaker 2]
And so I'm believing in that.
00:30:15 [Speaker 2]
I'm believing that it means something.
00:30:16 [Speaker 2]
Because if it if it doesn't, then, man, what a what a waste.

00:30:23 [Speaker 1]
Oh, man.
00:30:24 [Speaker 1]
You you talk about the tension of the platform, and something I've been wrestling with is that with every high profile Christian that falls.
00:30:35 [Speaker 1]
You know?
00:30:35 [Speaker 1]
I think about Robbie Zacharias, who I loved.
00:30:38 [Speaker 1]
I think about now now Michael Tate.

00:30:40 [Speaker 1]
And I just think about all of these guys, and I'm not here to dunk on anyone.

00:30:43 [Speaker 2]
I know.
00:30:44 [Speaker 2]
I know.

00:30:44 [Speaker 1]
Man, I need Jesus

00:30:45 [Speaker 2]
Yep.

00:30:46 [Speaker 1]
Every day, always.
00:30:47 [Speaker 1]
Yep.
00:30:47 [Speaker 1]
But I've been having this developing theory in my head that money and fame are like growth serum into the tumors that are in our bodies.

00:30:57 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.

00:30:57 [Speaker 1]
Like, in other words, whatever I will naturally gravitate towards from a sin perspective, the more money and the more fame you put into that, Yeah.
00:31:05 [Speaker 1]
The more potential that has to grow and blow up my life.
00:31:09 [Speaker 1]
You have actual authority in both of those areas.
00:31:12 [Speaker 1]
Talk to me about this tension because a lot of people I meet, man, they want platform, and usually with platform comes all the other things.

00:31:19 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.

00:31:19 [Speaker 1]
What is your relationship been like to these things, and how have you stayed strong, bro?
00:31:24 [Speaker 1]
Because it's a messy, sad world out there, and it seems to be getting worse.

00:31:29 [Speaker 2]
I mean, my this has been such a learning process, but I think if anything, the the the fear of God has been such a healthy thing in in my life.
00:31:39 [Speaker 2]
Do you know what I mean?
00:31:39 [Speaker 2]
But not only that, the gratitude, like, dude, I if anything, I can look back hindsight now and say, man, I wouldn't trade anything for my relationship with God.
00:31:50 [Speaker 2]
There's, you know and obviously, Don, I'm not I mean, if we're just being honest, I'm not a rich man.
00:31:54 [Speaker 2]
I'm I'm a blue collar, you know, rocker roller.

00:31:57 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:31:58 [Speaker 2]
I'm I'm Yeah.
00:31:58 [Speaker 2]
I'm still here trying to do it.
00:32:00 [Speaker 2]
I've been through my ups and downs with all that, but I've also seen you know, I've also had money.
00:32:05 [Speaker 2]
I've also been to the coolest of parties and events and hanging with the who's who of the world.

00:32:11 [Speaker 2]
And it's captivating.
00:32:14 [Speaker 2]
You're because it's the world.
00:32:15 [Speaker 2]
The world is glittery.
00:32:16 [Speaker 2]
The world is gold.
00:32:17 [Speaker 2]
Of course.

00:32:17 [Speaker 2]
And you're just like, wow.
00:32:19 [Speaker 2]
What a trip.
00:32:20 [Speaker 2]
And you can stare a little longer than you should, and you can you can watch a little longer than you should.
00:32:25 [Speaker 2]
But at the end of the day, you're like, I wouldn't trade it for nothing.
00:32:29 [Speaker 2]
My my my peace that I have.

00:32:31 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:32:32 [Speaker 2]
Just my the the love that I that I've been shown, the the mercy and grace I've been shown by God, I I wouldn't sacrifice that for nothing.
00:32:40 [Speaker 2]
But that is also that is also something you have to recognize all the time.
00:32:45 [Speaker 2]
And, you know, I see I see believers, you know, I mean, not only in the Christian world, but people that have, you know, that they grew up in the church, and then they had a little success, and they've just gone way over the deep end.
00:32:56 [Speaker 2]
And they were never even considered, you know, a person of faith or they were, you know, but they they had they have the conviction.

00:33:04 [Speaker 2]
I do believe they're believers, but the world just ate them up, and and eventually they'll they'll spit them out.
00:33:10 [Speaker 2]
I do have again, I have all the grace in the world, but even for the people that you mentioned, it's heartbreaking as it is.
00:33:16 [Speaker 2]
It's just like, we're all susceptible to it.
00:33:19 [Speaker 2]
But then there's a side that says, oh, man.
00:33:21 [Speaker 2]
I I don't I don't I don't get it, dude.

00:33:23 [Speaker 2]
I get that I get that there's there's a enemy and he's real, but I also believe that there's a side of us that that just went too far or allowed it to happen.
00:33:36 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:33:37 [Speaker 2]
And that's and that's where, bro, I mean, whether you believe it or not, pride is the biggest killer, you know, and and egos and where are you gonna catch that more than ever in when you're a celebrity or you're everybody's looking at you?
00:33:52 [Speaker 2]
If anything, I always feel like even before I was in a in a band, I don't like that.
00:33:56 [Speaker 2]
I don't wanna be seen.

00:33:58 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:33:58 [Speaker 2]
I I don't wanna be I'm the guy in the back that just wants to help get the job done.
00:34:03 [Speaker 2]
I don't I don't need to be upfront.
00:34:04 [Speaker 2]
That's why even all the social media stuff and the selfies and all that, I I just bro, it it makes me nervous.
00:34:10 [Speaker 2]
Like, it just makes me anxious.

00:34:12 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:34:13 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:34:13 [Speaker 2]
But people crave that.
00:34:15 [Speaker 2]
People love that attention.
00:34:17 [Speaker 2]
But that's the opposite of that's the opposite of being broken.

00:34:20 [Speaker 2]
That's the that's the opposite of, like, of coming to that place where it's like, dude, I I need Jesus so much.
00:34:27 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:34:28 [Speaker 2]
Not and not that we're beating ourselves up, but when you recognize, dude, no, what what Jesus did for me, like, this is I don't I don't wanna ever abuse that.
00:34:38 [Speaker 2]
I mean, I I can because I'm I'm I'm flawed.
00:34:41 [Speaker 2]
But my intention in my heart is saying, Lord, I I never wanna abuse your trust, or I never wanna abuse your grace.

00:34:47 [Speaker 2]
Because it is so it is so good, and I won't trade it for anything.
00:34:51 [Speaker 2]
But I am gonna make mistakes, and so please, you need to pour your grace on me.

00:34:59 [Speaker 1]
There's a a beautiful tension I think you're describing that every human being wants to be both fully known and fully loved.

00:35:06 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.

00:35:07 [Speaker 1]
And by fully known, I mean, flaws and all.
00:35:10 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:35:10 [Speaker 1]
Right?
00:35:10 [Speaker 1]
Like because the reality is we we can lie to the world, but we can't really lie to ourselves.
00:35:15 [Speaker 1]
We know how flawed we really are.

00:35:17 [Speaker 1]
And to the world, we hide.
00:35:21 [Speaker 1]
Right?
00:35:21 [Speaker 1]
We hide for various reasons.
00:35:22 [Speaker 1]
Maybe it's pride.
00:35:23 [Speaker 1]
Maybe it's the idea that if people really knew me, they wouldn't love me.

00:35:28 [Speaker 1]
Jesus is the only one in which we can be fully known and fully loved.
00:35:33 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:35:34 [Speaker 1]
But we have to live in that tension.
00:35:36 [Speaker 1]
Right?
00:35:36 [Speaker 1]
Because what I hear in your voice is a recognition of your indebtedness to the grace of God.

00:35:41 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.

00:35:42 [Speaker 1]
And if you forget that, you you start to feel pretty good about how loved you are, but you forget the you forget the fully known part.
00:35:49 [Speaker 1]
Now if you're feel the fully known part but forget the love part, you start to feel self loathing, and maybe you're motivated out of religious guilt.
00:35:56 [Speaker 1]
So it's that tension you're talking about, right, where it's like, man, while I was yet a sinner, Christ came to die for me.
00:36:03 [Speaker 1]
It's that profound mind bending reality that keeps me in the sweet spot.
00:36:08 [Speaker 1]
Right?

00:36:08 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:36:08 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:36:09 [Speaker 2]
It's such a wild trip, bro, this walk with God.
00:36:12 [Speaker 2]
That's why that's why when when everybody, they just see Christianity or even Christians, we're, you know, whatever.
00:36:18 [Speaker 2]
The we're boring.

00:36:19 [Speaker 2]
We're too judgment.
00:36:20 [Speaker 2]
We're all these things.
00:36:21 [Speaker 2]
Like, no.
00:36:21 [Speaker 2]
You don't understand.
00:36:22 [Speaker 2]
It's such a this is a a crazy walk with the Lord.

00:36:25 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:36:26 [Speaker 2]
And and the the learning and the, you know, the the good things we go through, the, the experience in it all is such it's it's such an amazing process.
00:36:37 [Speaker 2]
And I've been walking with God for so long and it's and it well, I I realized that how much I really don't know.
00:36:43 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:36:44 [Speaker 2]
And how much I'm still continuing to to learn.

00:36:47 [Speaker 2]
But it's all on the sweet side.
00:36:49 [Speaker 2]
It's all on the sweet side.
00:36:50 [Speaker 2]
Looking back now, I'll be like, oh, lord.
00:36:52 [Speaker 2]
You were you were so good to me even then, and I didn't even recognize it.
00:36:55 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?

00:36:56 [Speaker 2]
Or or you protected me, and you you watched out for me then.
00:36:59 [Speaker 2]
And you really do start to see this intimate relationship that God is with us.
00:37:03 [Speaker 2]
And so why would I ever feel like he's against me?
00:37:06 [Speaker 2]
Or or at what point or I don't understand.
00:37:09 [Speaker 2]
I mean, I do understand why the world feels like God is is against them.

00:37:14 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:37:14 [Speaker 2]
I was at a show yesterday, and I saw this guy's shirt, and it said, and it it you know, for a second, it kinda broke my heart.
00:37:23 [Speaker 2]
It's like but it just says, God hates facts.
00:37:26 [Speaker 2]
And it's like, I just I would love to just have a conversation with this guy.
00:37:31 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?

00:37:31 [Speaker 2]
Like, I it's as easy as that.
00:37:34 [Speaker 2]
Just I just just ask him about his shirt.
00:37:36 [Speaker 2]
Or did you ever see what was that there was that old band, and it's just it's so crude.
00:37:41 [Speaker 2]
I forget the band now, but it's so blasphemous.
00:37:44 [Speaker 2]
And every time I see a kid with that shirt, my heart breaks.

00:37:47 [Speaker 2]
It says Jesus says that you probably already know.
00:37:49 [Speaker 2]
It's a it's a span, and it's just the most foul word word ever.
00:37:52 [Speaker 2]
And and I and and and I've I've had conversations with the kid at a skate park about it, and he didn't even know what he he was doing.
00:38:00 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:38:01 [Speaker 2]
He was just he thought he was being cool.

00:38:03 [Speaker 2]
He thought he he thought he was being punk rock, and and it's like, bro, if you only you know, side of me comes off a little aggressive at first because in the side of me that says, dude, that's my that's my king, and I'm ready to rip the shirt off you right now and and put you down.
00:38:19 [Speaker 2]
But then the other side kicks in and says, the the the god side and says

00:38:24 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.

00:38:24 [Speaker 2]
No.
00:38:25 [Speaker 2]
He's he just doesn't know me.
00:38:27 [Speaker 2]
But I know one day when this kid does know who god is, he's gonna look back and be like, I can't believe I ever wore that shirt, man.
00:38:34 [Speaker 2]
And that's gonna that will drive him.
00:38:36 [Speaker 2]
That brokenness will drive him to follow God even more because he realizes, no.

00:38:41 [Speaker 2]
God, you're so good, and I and I I unintentionally tried to hurt you.
00:38:47 [Speaker 2]
And and I didn't mean that.
00:38:48 [Speaker 2]
I didn't mean that.
00:38:49 [Speaker 2]
I just didn't know.
00:38:50 [Speaker 2]
You know?

00:38:52 [Speaker 2]
So it's a it's a crazy trip, dude, the things that we we learn and, you know, if we could look back at our, you know, all those when I look back at all those years when I first gave my life to the Lord, like, I wish I would've just, again, I always tell people, just sit at the Lord's feet, man.
00:39:07 [Speaker 2]
Like, stop.
00:39:08 [Speaker 2]
You have to it's okay.
00:39:10 [Speaker 2]
Trial and error.
00:39:11 [Speaker 2]
You gotta learn for yourself.

00:39:12 [Speaker 2]
Obviously, you you surround yourself with people that are good for you and and you in in authority and but know the scripture.
00:39:19 [Speaker 2]
If you're just letting someone else tell you, like, well, I don't I don't trust anybody.
00:39:23 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:39:25 [Speaker 2]
I don't I I mean, not I don't wanna be negative.
00:39:28 [Speaker 2]
I just, like, I've I've had so much bad counsel around me where it's like, oh, okay.

00:39:33 [Speaker 2]
Well, I'm just gonna keep following the Lord, you know, and let and let him speak to my heart.

00:39:38 [Speaker 1]
That's awesome.
00:39:39 [Speaker 1]
Back to kind of a previous question I asked, and and we can wrap it up pretty soon.
00:39:42 [Speaker 1]
But you, you know, you kind of resist the Christian label and thinking about it as it relates to those that fall.
00:39:50 [Speaker 1]
Man, do you feel like the whole idea of Christian celebrity, Christian fame, does that add a layer of attack and complexity that maybe is at some of the heart of why you resist that?
00:40:03 [Speaker 1]
Because it's kinda like, man, I know who I am.

00:40:06 [Speaker 1]
I know what I need.
00:40:07 [Speaker 1]
And to kinda then pedestalize me that way Yeah.
00:40:09 [Speaker 1]
On some level, isn't that just inevitably setting you up to fail?

00:40:13 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:40:13 [Speaker 2]
Well, it's kinda opposite of I mean, we're I just I don't understand, like, even where's the where's the brokenness?
00:40:20 [Speaker 2]
Where's the humility?
00:40:21 [Speaker 2]
Like, that's that's the opposite of of of a servant.
00:40:24 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?

00:40:25 [Speaker 2]
I get it.
00:40:25 [Speaker 2]
I can't help for me.
00:40:26 [Speaker 2]
Like, I'm I'm in a rock band.
00:40:28 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:40:29 [Speaker 2]
I can't I can't hide.

00:40:30 [Speaker 2]
But, it's not it's not because I crave it or it's not because I I even I even want it.
00:40:35 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:40:36 [Speaker 2]
And then but there's the other side of it too where it's like, we always felt like we always felt like we were, okay, we were called to the world.
00:40:43 [Speaker 2]
Like, I didn't even know what Christian hardcore was or Christian rock.
00:40:47 [Speaker 2]
I didn't know any of that stuff.

00:40:48 [Speaker 2]
I thought everybody was, dude, if you if you're in a band, you just make music.
00:40:52 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:40:53 [Speaker 2]
Like, I didn't call it that was Krishna rock or that was Buddhist rap or I I didn't I didn't label stuff like that.
00:40:59 [Speaker 2]
The same way, you know, I I if I if I if I need my car, I've said this before, if my kid's car needs to be fixed and I'm driving down the street and I see a mechanic shop and he's got the fish up there.
00:41:11 [Speaker 2]
I don't bro, in that moment, I don't I don't care what your faith is.

00:41:15 [Speaker 2]
I I don't I don't care what your relationship with God is.
00:41:18 [Speaker 2]
I need you I need the best man possible or woman possible to fix my kid's car so that it doesn't break down on the freeway.
00:41:26 [Speaker 2]
So but we've been trained in whatever.
00:41:29 [Speaker 2]
Our our Christianity, our churches, like, oh, there's a fish on their their their business card.
00:41:35 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?

00:41:36 [Speaker 2]
I'm gonna go to

00:41:36 [Speaker 1]
him.

00:41:37 [Speaker 2]
I'm gonna go to him.
00:41:38 [Speaker 2]
Not the guy coulda just started fixing cards yesterday, but because he used the God card and put a fish on it, all of a sudden, you're you're trusting him to do that.
00:41:47 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:41:48 [Speaker 2]
So I don't and to go back to what you're saying, I don't I never wanted to use the name of of God to promote my band.
00:41:56 [Speaker 2]
Because if anything, in this style of music, it it never helped.

00:42:00 [Speaker 2]
If I was doing gospel or country, I get where the lines blur a little bit.
00:42:05 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:42:06 [Speaker 2]
Or or or soft and music.
00:42:07 [Speaker 2]
But when we came into a hardcore metal world, you mentioned Jesus, you already you already suck.
00:42:14 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?

00:42:14 [Speaker 2]
Your music sucks according to them.
00:42:17 [Speaker 2]
So it's it's not like it's not like it ever did us a favor.
00:42:21 [Speaker 2]
So we always knew that we had to be, you know, 20 times better than the bands we were playing with.
00:42:25 [Speaker 2]
So even those guys that are like, oh, I heard these dudes were Christians, man.
00:42:29 [Speaker 2]
And then, you know, then they watch you and they're like, oh, whatever, dude.

00:42:33 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:42:34 [Speaker 2]
Alright.
00:42:34 [Speaker 2]
They're okay.
00:42:35 [Speaker 2]
They they don't wanna give it up to you because they know that you're a believer.
00:42:38 [Speaker 2]
So we've had to deal with that forever.

00:42:40 [Speaker 2]
But I've also done Christian shows where the band actually does really suck.
00:42:46 [Speaker 2]
They're horrible.
00:42:47 [Speaker 2]
They shouldn't even be a band, but yet they're up there, and then no one's no one's feeling them.
00:42:53 [Speaker 2]
So then what do they do?
00:42:55 [Speaker 2]
They start using the God card.

00:42:57 [Speaker 2]
Everybody say Jesus.
00:42:59 [Speaker 2]
Jesus.
00:42:59 [Speaker 2]
And then they're using that, and and I never wanted to do that.
00:43:02 [Speaker 2]
He's like, don't do that.
00:43:04 [Speaker 2]
You know?

00:43:04 [Speaker 2]
Right.
00:43:05 [Speaker 2]
Don't don't do that.
00:43:07 [Speaker 2]
So, again, you're but you are setting yourself up.
00:43:11 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:43:11 [Speaker 2]
When you that's hard, man.

00:43:12 [Speaker 2]
I I don't I never wanted to be caught in that world, but I I never wanted to use the name of God to try to promote my band.
00:43:18 [Speaker 2]
And it never really worked in hardcore or at least when we started, it wasn't like it was never a thing.
00:43:23 [Speaker 2]
No.
00:43:24 [Speaker 2]
But I start to see people do that now, and it's like, I get their intentions.
00:43:29 [Speaker 2]
They want they no compromise.

00:43:30 [Speaker 2]
They wanna get up there, and they wanna be the strongest voice, the biggest muscles for the Lord.
00:43:35 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:43:36 [Speaker 2]
But they also reach a place when they are actually dealing with the real world now.
00:43:40 [Speaker 2]
And you've seen them just like I've seen them, bro.
00:43:42 [Speaker 2]
They they start to take a step back because it's like, it's harder than you thought.

00:43:46 [Speaker 2]
Now that people are actually watching you, and now that these people like your band and you have a little money in your pocket now, it's a little harder, you know.
00:43:54 [Speaker 2]
And I'm not saying it can't be done.
00:43:56 [Speaker 2]
There's also a reality to it all that's like, oh, now I really am forced to live out what I what I've been saying because it was easier when I can just scream it from the rooftops.
00:44:08 [Speaker 2]
But now now people are watching a lot more intensely, and so, yeah, that's when we see a lot of people just either fall big time or they just give it give it away.
00:44:20 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.

00:44:21 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:44:21 [Speaker 2]
And it sucks.
00:44:22 [Speaker 2]
It sucks.

00:44:23 [Speaker 1]
It totally does.
00:44:24 [Speaker 1]
And it's on some levels, when the goals and the essence of what it means to follow Jesus are antithetical to the goals and the essence of what it means to be on that stage.
00:44:34 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:44:35 [Speaker 1]
Something's gotta give in the long run.
00:44:36 [Speaker 1]
Right?

00:44:37 [Speaker 1]
And so it's a hard it's a hard balance, which is I sense even in your the way you describe it, the tension, the push and the pull, the, like, okay, God, but, like, ugh.
00:44:49 [Speaker 1]
Because it's not it's complicated, man.
00:44:51 [Speaker 1]
It's like Francis Schaeffer used to say, man, if God gives you a stage, you should get on it, but then you should get off as soon as you can.
00:44:57 [Speaker 1]
Right?
00:44:58 [Speaker 1]
And it's I think it's a bit of that tension of recognizing that there is great opportunity, but, man, there is great risk.

00:45:04 [Speaker 1]
And people need to be cautious and eyes opened when they're entering in.
00:45:09 [Speaker 1]
Maybe just to end here, dude, like, I I could just go all day.
00:45:13 [Speaker 1]
God has put such a a spirit of grace and humility on you and insight, and I really appreciate it.
00:45:18 [Speaker 1]
You wrote a book on all of this, and people should get it.
00:45:21 [Speaker 1]
So tell me about it.

00:45:22 [Speaker 1]
Tell me where people can get it.
00:45:23 [Speaker 1]
Let's just stand there.

00:45:24 [Speaker 2]
Obviously, it's online everywhere.
00:45:25 [Speaker 2]
It's in a lot of stores.
00:45:26 [Speaker 2]
It's funny I had, Randy Blythe from Lamb of God text me yesterday.
00:45:31 [Speaker 2]
He was in San Diego.
00:45:32 [Speaker 2]
He said, hey.

00:45:33 [Speaker 2]
I I saw your book in the in the bookstore at the airport.
00:45:36 [Speaker 2]
I said, no way, dude.
00:45:37 [Speaker 2]
I'm like, I had no idea.
00:45:39 [Speaker 2]
And he's like, that's a big deal.
00:45:40 [Speaker 2]
And I said, oh, maybe I just got some San Diego love or something.

00:45:43 [Speaker 2]
I said, because I I had no idea, you know, that that it was there.
00:45:46 [Speaker 2]
That's cool.
00:45:47 [Speaker 2]
But it it it's everywhere, man.
00:45:48 [Speaker 2]
And it's just it's just kind of a it's a fast paced look through my life.
00:45:53 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?

00:45:54 [Speaker 2]
Where I grew up, the my my my family, my friends, you know, my mom passing away, which really made me stop and pause for a moment.
00:46:02 [Speaker 2]
And and because I watched her be in love with Jesus, it it it, you know, it it drove me to wanna know what she knew, you know.
00:46:11 [Speaker 2]
And so and then all of a sudden, here I am in a band that I never had a desire to be in or even be I I don't even like being in front of people.
00:46:19 [Speaker 2]
I'm still I still have that shyness about me where it's just, like, it's not my thing.
00:46:22 [Speaker 2]
I'm not.

00:46:23 [Speaker 2]
I don't wanna be in front of the camera, you know.
00:46:25 [Speaker 2]
So but it so it's it just takes you through joining the band, takes you through our independent years, signing to a major label, the ups and the downs.
00:46:33 [Speaker 2]
And it's just it's just another extension of of me trying to relate this message of, you know, and of my faith.
00:46:40 [Speaker 2]
That's it.
00:46:41 [Speaker 2]
It's you know, like you said, talking about that platform, it's like, boy, I I try to do as much as I can more than I can outside of that hour on stage.

00:46:50 [Speaker 2]
That you know what I mean?
00:46:52 [Speaker 2]
Because that's you can do you could be or say or do whatever you want when you're on that stage, but, you know, I I I wanna be intentional when I when I'm off stage and whether it's, you know, community work, whether it's charity work, everything, whether it's just loving my my family, my friends, and and being available to to live out my faith.
00:47:10 [Speaker 2]
I I wanna do that, and this is just an extension to be able to read it.
00:47:13 [Speaker 2]
And, you know, at the end of the day, I'm, again, I'm I'm just still trying to point people towards Jesus, man.
00:47:19 [Speaker 2]
That's it.

00:47:20 [Speaker 1]
Awesome.
00:47:20 [Speaker 1]
And it's called Son of Southtown.
00:47:21 [Speaker 1]
Correct?

00:47:22 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:47:22 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:47:22 [Speaker 2]
Son of Southtown.

00:47:23 [Speaker 1]
Alright.
00:47:24 [Speaker 1]
Well, we'll put the links everywhere

00:47:25 [Speaker 2]
Awesome.

00:47:26 [Speaker 1]
So people can find it.
00:47:26 [Speaker 1]
But, dude, I really appreciate you.
00:47:29 [Speaker 1]
Your heart is awesome.
00:47:30 [Speaker 1]
Pure gold.

00:47:30 [Speaker 2]
I'd love to

00:47:31 [Speaker 1]
have you on again.
00:47:32 [Speaker 1]
Anytime.
00:47:32 [Speaker 1]
You know?
00:47:33 [Speaker 1]
Let's not wait three years.
00:47:34 [Speaker 1]
You know?

00:47:35 [Speaker 1]
Who knows if either of us will be around?
00:47:37 [Speaker 1]
You know?
00:47:37 [Speaker 1]
Maybe the world will come to an end between now and then, so we gotta make it sooner than that.
00:47:41 [Speaker 1]
But, dude, thank you.

00:47:42 [Speaker 2]
Thank you, bro.

00:47:42 [Speaker 1]
Appreciate you.
00:47:43 [Speaker 1]
I'll be praying for you and your family and for this next season and for this book.
00:47:47 [Speaker 1]
And, just keep up the good work, man.
00:47:49 [Speaker 1]
Appreciate you.

00:47:49 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:47:49 [Speaker 2]
Appreciate you, bro.
00:47:50 [Speaker 2]
Love you, Doug.

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