Should Michael Tait's Moral Failure Surprise Us?

Michael Tate, former lead singer of DC Talk and the Newsboys, has admitted to some serious sins of the past, including sexual misconduct, drug use, and other things. And in this particular episode, we're gonna discuss why. Because while on some levels we're shocked like you are, there is a part of me that wonders whether we should be shocked at all. It seems to me that fame and money continue to be obstacles that Christian leaders cannot overcome. And I think it's a worthwhile question to ask, should we be avoiding these at all costs?

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Is this one of those kind of situations where we should forego the pursuit of the world in order to save our souls? This is a vital conversation for our fame obsessed culture both in and outside of the church. I think you're gonna benefit from this. This is obsessed culture, both in and outside of the church. I think you're gonna benefit from this.

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This is not just some sort of tabloid news podcast, but I think a critical discussion about how to stay faithful in this particular world that we find ourselves living in. So stick around for the entire thing, and please be a part of this conversation. Let us know what you think if we're off the mark in your mind. We wanna hear from you. If you send an email to provokeandinspirepodcast@steiger.org, or if you're more of a social media user, you can follow us on Instagram, join our broadcast channel, send us a DM.

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You can let us know exactly what you think. Be part of this dialogue because we gotta do this together. My heart truly is that this would be a community of people who love Jesus, who want to be present in the world, but in a way that is fruitful and faithful and effective. So be part of the conversation. Lastly, and as always, this podcast is part of Steiger, a worldwide missions organization that is dedicated to reaching those who would not walk into a church.

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We are passionate about this mission and the world clearly is in desperate need of Jesus more now than ever, and you need to be part of that, helping bring the love of Jesus to those who are typically unwilling to walk into a church to hear it. For more information, you can go to stiger.org, steiger.0rg. You can find out how you can get involved, and we'd love for you to be a part of it. Alright. Let's talk about Michael Tate, fame, money, and power, and what we can learn to more faithfully follow Jesus in culture today.

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You're listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. Welcome to Provoke and Inspire, learning how to follow Jesus in a post Christian world. I'm really excited about today's conversation. We got a lot of different things we're going to be talking about. Okay.

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But we're gonna start with something that brings a little hope, a little levity, a little love, and it's gonna be Chad singing a song. David's random story. Oh. Alright. Before we get in all the the harsh realities out there, David, hit us.

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David's random story. I'm at our center here in Germany, and, it was really great. I mean, even, Luke was here Even I. Two days ago. It was good.

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Right, Luke? Even Luke. I was getting ready for, getting ready to speak, and, we have, like, a little apartment there. Anyway, I'm I'm there. And all of a sudden, I saw this bird go flying by.

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And so it's sometimes birds get in the window. You know about that. Right? Windows and birds getting in? Yes.

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So so this bird, he goes flying by. Bird. So I was like, hey, Jody. The bird just got in. Well, let him out.

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You know? So I go over there. It turns out it's not a bird, but it's a bat. And so Jody is like, ah. She's screaming and everything.

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She's like, oh, no. Oh, no. She, like, locks herself in our room, and this bat's just flying around, making, like, these high pitched radar sounds. You know, like Oh, really? Yeah.

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Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Being bat bird crazy. I don't know if that's the exact expression, Chad, but close enough.

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I I mean, I've seen bats before, but never have been so personally involved with them. And this one is, like, flying right at me. Like, that's so easy. Being the man that I am because Jody's like, oh, get him. Get him.

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So I'm like, get him. What am I supposed to do? So I thought, what do I do? And so then I grabbed this towel, and I'm, like, smacking him. And he's like, and he's like, finally, I smacked him, and I kinda, like, I think I knocked him unconscious because he's, like, on the floor, and he's just, like he wasn't making that anymore.

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He's just kinda, like, laying there very still. And so then I went over, and I kinda nudged him, but he kinda started moving again. And so I didn't know what to do, so I contacted one of our volunteers at the school. His name is Spanish. You contacted him.

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You used his form on his website? One one. No. I called. Used to bat signal.

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I called contacted him. I said, get Spanish here. I call him Spanish because he only speaks Spanish. Delegation? Yeah.

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So Spanish is there, and he has to talk through his translator because he speaks Spanish. And then I go lift up the curtain, and so he lifts it up, and there's the bat. He's like, you know? So then I go, get him out of here. So he's taking him out, but then when he's tried to put him in the garbage because he thought he was dead, all of a sudden he just started moving.

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He goes, oh, no. He's not dead. So what did he do? He set him free. So I'm thinking, like, the bat is gonna come back and I like, Jody is like, well, I don't wanna sleep here.

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You know, it's like this bat. We're gonna wake up in this Yeah. You could die. You could get rabies and that's it. That's what I was thinking.

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He could be like a killer bat. So so then I call up this guy. He's called the green one. How many layers are there to this bat removal story? He says bats are a beloved animal in Germany.

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You can't they're like, you get They're under protection. Everything's under protection in Germany. Provide. Yeah. You can't remove the dust without a permit.

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You actually have to provide, like, a bat door. No. You don't. Yeah. You do.

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Look it up. Yeah. You do. You want proof that we're related? So I had a window air conditioning unit in my kid's room, and I was removing it one day.

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And so I remove it, you know, I put it down. And it's there all summer. You know? And then I'm like, what are those little black fuzz balls in the windowsill? I'm like, that's weird.

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And then all of a sudden, one's like, and it starts flapping. So there's a freaking bat in our room. Wow. So I panic. And then what do I do?

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I call g vague. There you go. That's so that's what you guys do when you panic the call. Someone. But you do have to you do have to make, like, a bat door so they can get back in and out of your so indifferent that I will not be fact checking that.

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Okay. David's random story. Alright. Let's move on. There has been another scandal in the Christian music world, and this time, it's Michael Tate, who's the former lead singer of the band Newsboys and DC Talk.

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There was a report that was coming out that was alleging that he had been involved in some serious misconduct, some inappropriate touching, the use of drugs and alcohol, And he had already stepped down from Newsboys kind of abruptly, mysteriously, not that long ago. And the band Newsboys, the remaining members, they come out, and they are, you know, they're completely surprised and heartbroken, shocked, and they said they had no idea. And the veracity of that is a whole different discussion for a different channel. I don't really wanna get into that necessarily other than to say the whole thing was obviously horrific. And then Michael Tate himself, actually came out and essentially admitted it and said, yeah.

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I I'm guilty of these things, and I'm trying to deal with it and reconcile it and make it right. And and there was a it was a authentic, contrite confession, but, you know, it's a little bit like, well, okay. Now that the whole world knows and you've been caught, now the confession comes out. You know? I don't know.

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I it's just one of those things where here we go again. And, you know, everyone who was kind of reacting and commenting on it was coming at it from more of a perspective of, you know, just reporting on the news and, of course, the impact that this has on the victims, the impact that this has on the Christian community at large and the witness of Christ and all of those things. How did it hit you? I'd like to get your reaction first, and then I think we can kinda talk about whether we should even be surprised by this at all and what the systemic problem is here that needs to be addressed, or is this just inevitable and this is just gonna keep happening? What do you guys think?

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Well, as someone who lived, in Nashville for quite a season, quite a stint, it was definitely not surprising whatsoever to hear this. I mean, the rumors had swirled, about for many, many years related to Michael Tate and cocaine and crazy parties. And I didn't know about the sexual stuff being, you know, like like, the sexual assault stuff. I just knew that there was cocaine and gay sex parties. Those were always the rumors.

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I had a friend say that sometimes hitting rock bottom even still has a basement. I hope that this really is the basement of hitting rock bottom for him, and it is where God can build him back up and is building him back up and is restoring his life because speaking from personal experience, not necessarily with the, you know, the exact same challenges, but with addiction nonetheless. I think the worst thing is living that double life. Mhmm. I'm just wondering how you can keep that secret, that kind of lifestyle, especially when you are well known like that.

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To me, that's a question I have is how you could even do that. Yeah. I was wondering the same thing, like, with the band members that in their statement, it was something like they were also, you know, shocked to hear and and all of that. And I was kinda like, well, they must have been aware of stuff going on, the band members. So it is kinda odd.

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Yeah. That's, I think, the part of the story that's gonna continue to come out and not in a good way because from the research I did and, again, I didn't live in this world the way you did, Chad, but for you to say it so matter of fact that it was just a pretty well known thing that this kind of stuff was going on and not, like, in the secular music industry, but within the context of one of the more beloved Christian music acts in Christian music history for it to just be seen as like, oh, yeah. Well, you know, everyone kinda knew. I mean, that's wild. That's wild that that, you know, would not be confronted more head on or that what does that say, I guess?

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And I wasn't necessarily expecting to go here, but what does that say about the expectations of the Christian music industry that that wouldn't be like, woah. Woah. What? Like, oh, yeah. Everyone kinda knew that there was wild cocaine parties going on with, like I know.

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Sexual impropriety. Like, yeah, everyone kinda knew. It was just a matter of time. Like, I mean Well, that's that reminds, yeah, that reminds me, Ben, of when I was in Nashville, and, that's when, I think it was Holly Hearn who was she was on our she was working with or she was like a board member for a while, and she was big in Nashville. You know who she is, dad?

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Yeah. I know her. Yeah. Yeah. Of course.

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Anyway, she took me to this famous venue in Nashville. What is the name of it? I forgot. It's like, the most famous Christian venue she took me to. Oh, Rocket oh, right.

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Rockettown? Yes. Probably. That was it. But, anyway, so she takes me back there, and I'm like, the carpet was, like, all messed up.

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Anyway, and she was kind of embarrassed, and she said it's because of all the bands getting drunk backstage and get and throwing up on the carpet. I'm like, I didn't know I didn't know what to say. How in the heck do you have this going on at the biggest, most famous Christian venue in the planet, which it was then. And this kind of stuff is going on backstage, and no one speaks up. It says we gotta hold ourselves to a higher standard.

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To me, that's what's shocking. This is known, and you keep inviting these guys and giving them this platform and letting them be these role models to all these young people that they influence and everything. I don't know. Every time stories like this come out, what's frustrating to me is that those will always, you know, make the biggest headlines and be the thing that everybody talks about. And Right.

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Friend once said, way back when what when was it? I think maybe when it was the Ravi Zachariah thing that came out. A friend said to me, you know, the sad thing is for every guy or girl, you know, leader who falls like this, they'll be you know, there there's hundreds who end well, and we don't you don't hear about, you know, the guys who have just been faithful and ended well and done, you know, and and and lived, their calling. And, you know, they're not celebrated and and talked about in the same way. And then somebody that messes up big time, and then everybody knows and talks about it both in the secular and the Christian realm.

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It's just kinda frustrating. I I think that's actually a great segue, Luke, because I I know he may have said or maybe in implying that there are other big name leaders that run the race well. But by and large, it feels like the ones that run the race well are not contending with the same level of global influence. And so on some levels, it's like, yeah, they're anonymous both in their successes and their failures because they don't contend with the same level of access and power and opportunity that some of these guys have. And I that to me is the more systemic part of this conversation and the open end question I wanna ask you guys because I remember when Ravi Zacharias had his failing.

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And by the way, Chad's dog in the background is awesome. He's building some sort of nest nest out there. Nice. No. I'm into that.

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I'm into that. It's it's adding to it. I remember when the whole Ravi Zacharias, thing happened. That one really hit me hard, harder than a lot of them, and I think it's because I was really at the beginning of my interest in apologetics, and I just so admired the way he was able to fuse such clear thinking with such poetic rhetoric, and I he was just a real hero of mine in that space. And so when he fell and fell as he did in such a horrific manner, I really started to feel like, can anyone survive this?

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It really started to feel like, is anyone capable of resisting that level of money and fame and power? And I started to develop this thesis in my mind that money and power and fame are kind of like a growth serum to the tumors that exist in our bodies, that we all have unique proclivities, some sexual proclivities, others with pride, others with control, others with whatever. There's a range based on the way we're wired. And it's like when you add power and money and fame into you, it's like you take growth serum and you just you blow up the potential of those tumors inside of you. And and I say that as you said, David, not to judge him particularly, but as a warning to myself as I pursue influence.

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Because as I said on a livestream yesterday, I think that there is a lot of ways to justify a big platform. Right? We are all we are all ambitious. We want to reach lots of people. We wanna make a difference in the world.

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We wanna missions movement, a worldwide missions movement that's gonna impact the entire world. And by definition, that's gonna come with exposure and platform and size and influence. But I guess I wanna ask the opening question. Can we survive that? And if so, how?

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That those are my key questions as it relates to what seems to me like a systemic failure, not just an individual case by case isolated set of failures. Well, it reminds me of someone I heard. They they they said this kind of it's kind of a funny phrase, but new level, new devil. Mhmm. And it's like so when you're the higher your platform Yeah.

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The bigger target you become because of the very influence you're having, especially if you're having an influence for good. I think it was Francis Schaeffer who said, God might push you on the stage, and he's talking about big platform. But as soon as you can get off it, you should. You know? Okay.

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In obedience and humility, you get you're pushed out there. You're aware of how you need Jesus. You need an accountability person that you really can talk to about things. But he said, don't stay there longer than you need to. You know what I mean?

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Because you're like it's like being in the front lines and standing on top of a hill. The idea that you're gonna get shot increases. You know? And like you said, Ben, the natural weaknesses you have are been more exposed. We need people on big stages as Jesus followers, I believe, but I think there needs to be this kind of humility built into it.

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Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking a similar thing because I was trying to think about some of the people that I've that I know of or or have even had the chance to talk to who have kind of bigger platforms or whatever be in the Christian world and stuff. And it feels to me like often the ones that do end well and have that kinda character and have have stayed close and faithful to God throughout time will will tend to do what you just described, David. They'll be like, they're not trying to stay in the spotlight all the time, and therefore, maybe end up not having the same influences, a number of the ones that fall because they they actually purposefully, you know, step down or take time out of that spotlight or or have a different focus in life.

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And and so they don't, you know, step if if they have moments in the spotlight, they don't stay in it in the same way. And so I wonder if there's something to that. Maybe there's a reason why the guys that don't fall are often not the ones, you know, that are always constantly in in the in the fame and in the spotlight. Yeah. Yeah.

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I think it's a sober minded self awareness, and I I do think it's about viewing these things. Maybe this is too harsh, but necessary evils. I don't know. I just wonder. It's like the whole idea, the verse in my head that keeps circling around, is the idea that, you know, what good is it for you to gain the whole world and lose your soul?

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And I just I just really wonder if we are meant for that. I was listening to a great interview that I'd highly recommend with Scooter Braun, the former manager of Justin Bieber, and he he had the whole thing with Taylor Swift and Ariana Grande. I mean, you name it. This guy was the top of the top of the top, and he has this fantastic interview with, Steven Bartlett from the diary of the CEO. And at one point, he was kinda talking about a lot of these artists that fell off the rails.

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And Steven asked him, why do you think this happened? And not as a believer, as just a secular guy, said, man is not meant to be worshiped. You know? And here's a guy who spent his entire career finding and then just elevating to worship level status artists. I mean, this guy was the guy.

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I mean, he made a billion dollars doing this, and he literally just said he said his exact phrase was, man is not meant to be worshiped. Man is meant to serve. Wow. And, I mean, here's a guy who had a front row seat to not just the Justin Biebers of the world and his rise and then falling and then rerise. But he, you know, he talked about another artist that he worked with who he called the most talented artist he's ever worked with who ultimately had a drug overdose because he just couldn't get past his drug problems.

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He had a front row seat, not just to the high profile ups and downs, but the many behind the scenes that probably most people don't know about. And here's a guy who looked at fame and said, this is not what we were made for. And you just wonder, like, I don't know. I don't know. I just wonder that that there's something about putting ourselves in in the position to receive something that was meant for God that just inevitably ruins us.

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And I don't know. Maybe we just don't take those cautionary tales seriously enough. Yeah. Probably the strongest, most recurring phrase for me in the addiction recovery process is that you are as sick as your secrets. And I think that for someone who has dealt with a two decades long journey through, you know, all of this double living, I just wonder if in light of all that, you're being propped up by people that are worshiping you and that are claiming that you're great and that you've inspired them and all those things.

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And and yet you choose to live in this in the secret, and in the sickness. It's a festering it's like black mold. You know? Like, if anyone's ever owned a home and or thought about owning a home and and a home inspector comes back with a report, and they're like, well, it's a great house, but it has black mold in the in the crawl space. It's like, man.

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Or anywhere. It's usually assigned to yeah. Run away. Like, pass on this one because it's so hard to deal with. And, in so many ways, that's exactly what Michael himself described in his post on Instagram.

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Billy Graham, during his era, presidents wanted to talk to him. He was at the highest level you could get during that time, and he was speaking in huge stadiums, and it was there's no one bigger than Billy Graham. But the thing that about Billy Graham that he was famous for is he was always the first one whenever he would hear someone speak and they talk about repentance. He was one of the first ones to run forward and fall to his knees. You know?

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And he's an example of someone who finished well. Yeah. I remember when I was invited to go to this Billy Graham thing, but for him, a small group of people just, I don't know, a few thousand or something, but that was an intimate time with Billy Graham. But, you know, it's like, oh. But when he would go out in Amsterdam, which is extremely the furthest thing from a Christian place, he had to go out in disguise, or he'd be mobbed.

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He was famous Yeah. For sure. Part of his secret was that he was the first one to run forward in Neil, and my understanding is he had a real strong accountability, and he had a real strong idea of the responsibility that comes with public ministry. And so he had really high standards in terms of who would take him somewhere. He wouldn't he wouldn't not be alone with a with a girl, for example, or he had all kinds of things that he'd incorporated to protect himself because he knew he was vulnerable.

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And I think part of the reason people on high platforms, I'm talking about Jesus followers, fall is because they're willing to take the coolness of big platform, but not the responsibility that comes with it. Yeah. That's perfect. And, I think at James three one where it says, not many of you should become teachers, my brothers and sisters, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. And I think that's exactly it.

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I think that there is not there's an attraction to the benefits without the sober mindedness of the risk involved. And I really do think you have to view it like that. Like, you're on the front lines of a battle, and so you're not gonna be casual. You're not gonna chill. You're gonna be properly armed.

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You're gonna be properly informed. Like, you have to view it that way, and you can be, you know, it's the the weird twisted thing is now a lot of Billy Graham's rules are criticized now now by certain Christians who think that was, like, chauvinistic, and he was, like, suppressing women and all this. And that's a whole another conversation, but the point is I think you have to recognize the battle that you're in, and you have to align your life accordingly. Like, you don't get to be a civilian anymore. You don't get to live like that.

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You have to be more hardcore, which is what I think Paul is saying, and that's really because the level of destruction seems to be commensurate with your level of influence. Right? It's like if I blow up and something goes wrong, I I impact a certain group of people, and there'll be damage, and it'll be hard. But that is nothing compared to the damage or influence that someone like Michael has. Right?

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Like, I've said this before, but if Joe Rogan gets on the pod today and says, you know, I think drinking water is just really bad for you. Just nobody should drink water. I just I got a bunch of research and, like, because of the level of influence he has, a bunch of people would be like, I think I should stop drinking water. Like, in other words, you have such extraordinary responsibility when you have influence. He can't just spout certain things because if he does, people are gonna believe him.

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People are gonna listen and follow him. You know, your your wacko neighbor says that, and everyone just kinda rolls their eyes. And so I think it's like, man, pursue influence, sure, but recognize the extreme level of caution that then is gonna be required in light of that influence. You can't be cavalier. I think you have to be incredibly sober minded, which is why one of my biggest prayers is, lord, let my character outpace my influence.

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Like, that's been one of my prayers for a long time. I'm like, god, do not give me influence that my character is not ready for. In fact, let my character significantly surpass my influence, because I think when your character is lagging behind your influence, that's when you're in very dangerous water. Yeah. I think I'd go back to what you were saying, David, about Francis Schaeffer.

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I think that was a really good way of putting it. Like, to in some ways, I think maybe I don't know if it is right to want influence. I think it's something else, isn't it? Though it's it's like, you know, can I do what god is calling me to do? That's that's part of it.

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And it's like this idea, I think you said, David, that the quote was god might push you on the stage for a certain thing that he's gonna do. You get off as quick as you can. And I think that that that that is an important attitude or thought to have, partly because if you think about it, even if I'm not messing up, I'm like, really? Am I gonna influence a bunch of people? Am I have I got enough to really say that's gonna bring something good to to their lives?

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I mean, you know, if God uses it, if if I can point to God somehow, then then I you know, then that's great. But but otherwise, if you stay on the stage too long, then other stuff will come up in our own lives. And no matter how great our character is, there's not there's a bunch of stuff that is not good for people to follow in what we think or say or do. And I think, there's something about the way influence works today and fame works where you you really have to make an effort to stay in the limelight. You have to I mean, let's take social media as an example.

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Right? Because of the algorithms and everything. You might do something at one point that draws a lot of attention and but if you to to maintain that in the the noise today online, you gotta keep pushing and keep going. And that's something that that I find really tiring around, you know, when you start talking about, oh, we have to do this thing online or social media, and it's like needing to constantly produce content and constantly put things out if you wanna stay somewhere. And so it is making me wonder if there's something about whether we're in a place of having some kind of platform or not.

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Like, nowadays with social media, this can apply to almost anyone. Is it right to constantly be trying to stay in a certain position of influence through, pushing that? Or or is there a different approach as a Jesus follower of, like, god, I wanna be used by you. If there's something that I need to do that requires a certain platform or something, then show me when's the right moment to step in and and how soon can I get off? And, again, there's this, I think I won't name just because, well, based on this conversation.

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You could just call him c Johnson. Okay. So there was this You're saying there was somebody else. You could say Chad. It's okay.

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Oh, no. No. No. You're sorry. You're right.

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You're right. So call him Chad j. That'd be good. That's fine. Yeah.

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So I was talking to somebody who has has a significant platform in the Christian world and yet has chosen to not speak generally, like, to to at least for a whole season of I think it's gone for two years now, has not done much public speaking and has a thing on the website going like, I'm not accepting invitations right now. And so I just asked him. I was like, why why are you doing that? You know, if God's given you this gift and you why are you not doing why are you not accepting any invitations and not doing public speaking? And he just said, I just don't feel God calling me to do that right now.

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And he said, maybe it's a season, but unless God's clearly calling me to step into things like that, I don't want to. I don't wanna be in that place. I wanna it's kind of what you were saying there, but, like, that was the the impression I had from that attitude is, like, I wanna if I can get off the stage, I wanna be off the stage. And that's that's, yeah, it's really challenging me, I think, you know, to to try to understand that concept. Yeah.

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And and it's you know, this is a totally different conversation. But, again, back to that Scooter Braun interview, he's talks about how he was at the height of his career, and, you know, he wanted to commit suicide. He was miserable. And and so, ultimately, you know, recognizing that whatever who's who has chainsaws in the background? That's me.

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Is that you, Chad? I will this window is closed. I'll try to know if you're good. You guys keep good. I mean, it was I had to get search something.

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Saws in the background. Wow. Wow. Look at that, Luke. I wonder if we could face mask that, looks maxed that.

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See what that I'm gonna add that into the mix just to see if the the circle does better than all four of us. Well, I just totally lost my train of thought. Yeah. You know, I think even honestly examining our motives for wanting to do what we do. Mhmm.

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Because there is just never ending evidence that the reward of these things is not satisfying anyway. And, you know, he's he's like he sort of quit his management business, and, you know, he's kind of like you know, his real name is Scott, and he's had this persona, Scooter, and he talked about how he didn't know who he was apart from being the guy and how he had to rediscover that. Not a GS follower. I would love to talk to him. Honestly, he seems like a cool guy.

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But the point is, you know, these things don't even bring joy and satisfaction anyway. The these just frankly lead to misery in so many people's lives, which is why I think all around the proper conclusion, as you said, is what are you calling me to do? You know, I I had the privilege of talking to William Lane Craig recently, and, you know, he struck me as a guy who, like, I asked him about, like, some cultural stuff. And he was like, well, it's not really my area of expertise. I don't really know a lot about that.

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And, you know, it's like he was really reluctant. And and what I saw in him was a real purity to his calling and that I really admired. It was like he had a real desire to wanna provide powerful philosophical arguments to the objections to to God, and he just devoted his life to that. And you don't get the sense that he's pursued this or that. You know, his social media is kinda whatever.

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You know? It's just and I don't know. I just was I admired that. I was like, I like you said, I just wanna be faithful to whatever God is calling me to. Now for those who are called into a position of having a public platform, then I think we do what you said, David.

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We we have to be like Billy Graham and be hardcore and recognize that it's not just the battle of being worshiped as human beings shouldn't be, but it's the spiritual battle. Right? Like, Satan as much more vested in go going after a guy like Michael Tate than me. Right? If he can get high profile people to fail, the impact of that is catastrophic, and so we have to recognize the spiritual battle as well.

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There's, just two things came to my mind as you were sharing that, Ben. One, like, with Billy Graham, there's the other interesting about that, I feel like we might have said this somewhat on an episode in the past. He also, said something like at the end at the very end of his life when somebody asked him, what would you have done differently? I think he said something like, I would have accepted less invitations. I would have traveled less, gone and spoken less.

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And so even he recognized that that, like, you know, was it you know, there's there would have done less of that. But but yeah. The the other thing I was thinking about is completely gone from my mind right now. You and you and Ben are are enjoying the same the same blessing today. You know the best part is, though?

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Like, I could see that you were just there was a cliff's edge Yeah. And you were just, like, stalling, hoping that your brain would quickly lay a path before you. See, what I would have recommended is is to go with the Indiana Jones approach and just step out and, like me, just start to speak Just make up. And just hope that words for sentences, sentences, paragraphs I'm trying to learn from this conversation. If I have nothing to say, maybe it's better.

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I don't say it. Well, does anyone have any closing remarks on this tragic situation in all seriousness? Nope. Oh, I know what it was. I know what it was.

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Was gonna come up to. I just think I just think the other thing that bothers me is, the fact that he went on for, I don't know how long, years and years, right, where where there was this double life. And I know you guys talked about this at the beginning, Chad. There's there's something about that that that bothers me. And I think that that comes across to all of us in smaller ways or in different ways, in our lives.

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And I I would like to think that or to, you know, pray that I'd be able to act differently when that comes up. And so, if there's something going on wrong in my in my life, and you said this, Chad, you know, not keeping it secret, bringing it out into the light, but voluntarily stepping away from things when I know I'm not in the best place to be doing those things. I feel like that's something I wanna be able to do. You know, I've I have friends, people people close to me who, I know have had troubles and I've had to step away for different things and yet have struggled to do that well. And it's like, why is it always like that?

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Why is it when the big stories come out, it's it's because somebody else made it public Mhmm. And then the person goes, oh, yes. I recognize. Yes. I was doing that.

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What why is it never a story of somebody voluntarily coming forward and saying, guys, I gotta stop. I'm I've been messing up. I should not be doing this. Yeah. As I don't think I've I can't think of a story where somebody's actually done that voluntarily.

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So I just feel like we've gotta do a lot more of, like, recognizing when I'm in a good place to do something to have a platform, and when I'm not and I need some time out. I I just feel like that would probably Yeah. Stop a lot of other bad stuff happening. Well, and I think it's connected to what I was saying before, which is that when you need it, when it's part of you, when it's who you are, when it's become your identity, it becomes very hard to quit. And I think the remedy to that, the ease that you perceive in people who just seem to be able to go, I'm done.

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You know? Like, I think about the athlete. I always kind of admire the athlete who retires early, who just says Mhmm. I'm good. I'm good.

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I I've done this, and I don't wanna destroy my body, and I'm on to other things. And there's always a part of you that's like, wow. That's so cool. And there, you know, and there could be various reasons for it, and I don't wanna generalize. But the the meaning I want to at least transpose onto that is that they don't need it, that there is a wholeness to them that allows them to navigate through the seasons of life and let go of things when it's time.

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And so for me, I think the remedy is to strive for a contentment found in intimacy with Jesus. And when you have that, I think it would God would lead you to say, okay. It's time. I gave you that stage, but now step off. And when my identity is wrapped up into it, I think we fight.

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We fight, and we stay, and we don't give up. And because like you said, Luke, it could be for moral reasons, but it doesn't have to be. Right? Couldn't it just be Mhmm. I don't want this anymore.

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God doesn't want me to be here anymore. You know? Like Right. I don't know. I would like to see those stories, not just like, yeah.

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I've messed up, and I'm gonna come forward. That would be refreshing compared to the I got caught, so now I'm confessing. Mhmm. But just for different reasons. So how refreshing would it be if someone just said, you know, some giant YouTuber or some big artist is like, I'm done.

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I'm done. And I'm I'm I've you know, this is cool, but I feel like God's called me to focus on my family for now or start this or do this or whatever. Mhmm. I don't know. I don't know if though any of the details, but, you know, you think of, like, even Steven from Anne Berlin.

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I know we had him on this podcast, but he stepped down from being the touring musician of of Anne Berlin, which I'd imagine was very hard. Now Maddie Mullins is, funnily enough, the Mhmm. Lead for for Anne Berlin. Oh, really? But, you know, there's maybe an example of someone who said, maybe my time on the stage is up.

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And as a musician, I'm sure that's tough. But, yeah, I would like to see that too, Luke. That'd be very awesome. So what about you, Chad? Are you ready to step off the stage?

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Are you ready to get back on? That's what we all wanted to know. I'm ready to step off the stage. No. I do think that I do think that it's, it's always gonna be easier when you're called out publicly to to maybe, at that point, finally recognize that you need to change than it is, you know, when you think you can get away with, the, you know, the black mold that's that's living in your crawl space.

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But I I do think it's reflective of and and thinking, you know, thinking back on my emotional affair story, it was it was the holy spirit that that convicted me of sin and that led me to repent to my wife and to my kids and to go to Aaron and Bryce and, you know, other people. And and, so I'm not necessarily saying that in that case, I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but I do think that there are probably a lot of instances where people do actually receive conviction from the Holy Spirit and then respond, but don't necessarily That's good. Come out publicly and, like because I think it's actually quite a dangerous move to publicly address, especially, like, the closer you are to the sin situation, to the black mold, you know, like, the the the the more dangerous in some ways to come out and and publicly declare it. Although, it's, you you know, probably depends on on whether it was a public facing sin or what anyway, what whether it was a private thing. But, but it is weird.

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It is interesting how especially for public figures that have public ministries, that it's it's very rare, to hear of that that kind of thing. But yeah. Yeah. Well and, again, it just gets deeper and deeper, and you you have to rationalize it, and you have to justify it, and it becomes a a very hard web to untangle. And I think we all know that.

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I mean, it's just sin is a deceptive thing, and it hides, and it doesn't wanna be confronted. It doesn't wanna be exposed, and it just keeps you in bondage. So it's tragic, and, I think we need to confront some of the systemic reasons why this continues to happen. Mhmm. Well, let's wrap up there.

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I thought that was a great conversation, and, we'll just continue to pray that God protects all of those who are in positions of spiritual leadership. And, yeah, we'll just pray that this, doesn't keep happening. And that God reveals to us the systemic reasons why it might be continuing to happen and how we can mitigate those reasons and safeguard against them in our own lives, yeah, and just change the culture that seems to be producing this sort of tragic outcome again and again. Mhmm. Anyway, let us know what you think.

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Send us an email at ProvokeandInspirepodcast@.org. Join our Instagram channel and give us some feedback there. Otherwise, thanks for everything y'all. This was fun. Thanks, Chad, David, Luke, and for me, that's it.

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We're out. Peace.

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