Missions Expert Warns: Gospel Proclamation Is No Longer a Priority for Ministries and Churches—Here’s How to Change That | Ted Esler

Alright. Here we are, Provoking Inspire podcast. We are so grateful that we have Ted Esler here, and we are gonna be talking about a range of things. But before that, thank you. Thanks for taking the time and joining us on the Provoking Inspire podcast.

Absolutely. I'm always ready to spend time with Vikings fans. That's right. As painful as that is, shared suffering of years together. Yeah.

That's right. We're still licking our wounds over here because we are also regrettably Timberwolves fans. And Yeah. This is this is getting very, parochial. But for those in The US, we suffered yet another devastating loss, and we'll just continue to be in sports purgatory forever.

So, anyway, so, yeah, we are how how about this? If you just wanna kinda give a bit of an intro of of who you are and and what you guys do, and then I we can launch into kind of the impetus for this conversation, which is something that you shared that was really eye opening and I think very relevant to all of those that listen to this. But if you wanna start with that, and we can we can get rolling. Sure. Well, I lead a ministry called Missio Nexus.

We are kind of like the association or the trade association for mission agencies and globally focused churches. We have about, I don't know, 380 or so mission agency members, but we also have churches as members, represents 60 to 70,000 globally focused workers all around the world. And what we do is we try to get them together, share what they're learning, and to grow by really collaboration and, and working together. So that's what we do. It's awesome.

So so, Ted, tell us because the what what sparked this desire for this conversation is an email I got from you that you send to a group of people. So tell us a little about that because that when I read that, I was like, this is interesting. We gotta talk about this. Yeah. But every year, we have a theme.

So this year, our theme is evangelism, and we're trying to kind of we always pound the rock for evangelism, discipleship, and the planning of churches. That's kind of our three, filters. And, so this year, the whole year, we're focused on evangelism. And I sent the letter out to our group of CEOs, the presidents or the leaders of these ministries, about that months ago. And, then I wrote a little follow-up in this email that you received, Aaron, and I was surprised because I started getting responses back from ministry organizations saying things like, well, we don't, you know, we don't use that word, or we don't do evangelism in our ministry, or, you know, that that's, kind of an eighties seventies, eighties concept.

We've moved on from there. It shocked me to get this kind of response, and so I started pushing back with some of these ministries and saying, well, wait a second. How can you be about spreading the kingdom? And then say, well, we're not really about evangelism. And that's what prompted this conversation.

You and I exchanged a few emails about it. Yeah. So how do help us understand why someone would say that and then because, like, it's kinda hard to fathom a mission organization, great commission oriented or assume, I guess, maybe not exclusively Yeah. Yeah. Would say we're not into evangelism.

What do they mean? Like, help us frame that in the the best possible light. Okay. So there's a couple of areas where this is coming from. The first one, I would say, is that a lot of people when they hear that word evangelism, what they're thinking about is kind of an old school presentation of the gospel.

Now first of all, I just gotta tell you, I got nothing against old school presentations of the gospel at all. But I think they're referring to kind of easy believism or the idea that you get someone to go through, you know, the famous one, obviously, is the four spiritual laws. You pray a prayer, and then they're like, good, because they went through that process. So so one set of responses is a bit of a reaction to the way that evangelism, I think, was conducted a lot back in the seventies and eighties. Probably not so much anymore, but that was one part.

Very in a very different way, another part of the pushback was from church planting organizations. Now in the last decade and a half or so, this method of church planting has arisen, disciple making, movements in which you get people reading the bible for themselves, and you encourage them to kind of go through the old to the new testament and gain a picture of who Jesus is. And in that process, they fall in love with Jesus, and they become believers. And there's no real push for, again, a presentation or a point in time discussion, but rather you let people essentially process the scriptures. And many of those organizations would say, evangelism gets the cart before the horse because people need to know what they're converting to.

And so it's far better to immerse them in the word for, you know, three, four months instead of just going up cold and giving them a presentation and they're hearing about Jesus and they may not have any context for what that means. You gotta remember a lot of our, ministry members are working in parts of the world where, you know, people really are clueless about who Jesus is or if they know anything about him, it might be, for example, in a Islamic context where there's a different view of Jesus than what we as Christians would hold. So those would be the two main things that I heard coming back in kind of what the pushback was all about. Where would you say that they're getting it right? And and where does it trouble you?

You know, I think the troubling part that's easier one for me to stick with probably. The the troubling part is the concept of proclamation. That's front and center in the New Testament. Yep. You see Jesus doing it.

You see the apostles doing it. You see you know, it's just it's just right through the scriptures. And, you know, I think it's easy for us to see that only in a first century context, but I actually think it's a universal command to proclaim the gospel. It's not something that we would just see happening in the first century. So I think anything that kind of deconstructs or removes us away from the the proclamation, I think I think that's harmful.

I also think there is a pluralism, afoot, the spirit of the age, is pluralism, and so there's kind of a negative pressure on making truth claims. And let's face it, evangelism is, it's you're making a truth claim. And so it scares me a little bit, for anybody to back off the idea that, you know, I we can't make truth claims in a particular context because they're not gonna be well received. They weren't received well in the first century. Why would we think they would be received well now?

So I do think that pluralism plays a role in this as well. Now on the positive side, I really like the idea that, you know, when someone becomes a believer, if they have background information, that obviously makes the decision more informed. And I think that it is very helpful, if if somebody has the opportunity to go through scripture before being asked to make a decision or push to make a decision about Jesus, obviously, that brings greater clarity what to what that decision is. So, you know, I think there's some good things and some bad things with this, but I think when it really comes down to it, if if we're not doing bold proclamation, I think we're missing the boat. And if any of these methods are being used because of a lack of courage or a lack of willingness to be bold, little bit concerning, I think, even even in a professional ministry context, where people are out there and this is kind of what they're doing full time.

That's gonna trickle out and I think have a broader effect on all believers. So I think I think it's worth encouraging just pull a proclamation. Yeah. I Ben and I were just talking about this in a way that I it's really sparked. So we've done work in kind of the classic unreached Muslim context, and we've done work in post Christian secular context.

And, you know, each of those contexts are interesting. And lately, we've been exploring some work on doing campus work on state universities in The US and the idea of hosting we have a a ministry called No Longer Music that does large scale proclamation, creative and relevant to secular context, but large scale proclamation in in public context. And we have seen, I mean, just decades of long term fruit as a result, right, in in various context. But we've we've just started to explore the idea of doing it, in The US on state university campuses. And we believe based on other work that we're doing in US that it could be incredibly relevant for the context.

The the state university is kinda like the that inflection point of culture. It's where young people are really asking a lot of questions. It's where a lot of young people are walking away from their faith in the negative sense in that context. So we feel like, man, it would just be an incredible thing. And I'm trying to say this without sounding, overly critical, but what we've come against so far that we're a little surprised by is the protectionist mindset.

And and by that, I mean, there people are afraid to do something bold and out there proclaiming for fear of the consequences of losing their status with the university or this, that, or the other thing. And it's weird because it's there are versions of that in The Middle East too, where because of the fear of getting kicked out of the country, this you you you in the worst sense, you do nothing in order to protect your nothing. You know? And and so we've come across that. And and that's a and I know that's, like, one inversion of this complex conversation.

But I do think that protectionist approach, risking losing what you've got because you're bold with the gospel is a challenge. Would would you think that plays into this? That certainly plays into it. I mean, more of my experience is probably in the Islamic context. But it it really makes no sense to travel the world, get into a foreign country, and then decide you're not gonna actually do the most important thing, which is to proclaim Christ in that context.

But, you know, when you move your family there and your kids are in the schools and your whole life, you you become a little bit careful. You don't wanna get kicked out. You wanna maintain your presence in that environment. I definitely have seen that at play. I've also seen, missionaries that have their bold.

And Yep. Even if they're in very you know, the funny thing about that, Aaron, is, for example, I've had people say, be cautious about praying before you have your meal in a restaurant. You know, we're kind of clandestine here. I just think Muslims have no problem with praying in public. They're totally gonna understand you praying in a in a in a restaurant or a context like that.

There there is that kind of protection. Now in a I would just say in a US context, it feels to me to be so much safer. Now I know that's not really true that people do feel like if it could damage. In a physical sense. Right?

For sure. You you but I think it's this sense of, oh, I'm going to lose my status like in the state university context. Oh, I'm gonna lose my ability to do the ministry that I do so I can't take too many risks and stand out and rock the boat too much. You know? It's you know, that's kinda where I think the safety issue comes in.

I'd be curious to ask you. So, I mean, I remember many, many years ago when I was in college, we had these, I would call them offensive preachers. I was at a, Florida State football game, and I see these offensive preachers out on the corner. And, I mean, let's face it. These guys are bad ones.

Yeah. I don't care how you slice them, but they're not they're not positive. I'm curious to know how that, you know, kinda spills over onto what you're doing on college campuses. Well, I think to Aaron's point, we're in the beginning process of trying to do it. I think that right now, they're largely reticent to even try.

And, again, to be honest, it's early days, and we are just exploring this. I I think to the broader point, it's about what how do I wanna position myself in society? How do I view myself as a follower of Jesus in a particular context? I was just rereading the end of John 15 where in verse 18 it talks about, you know, if the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belong to the world, it would love you as its own.

And as it is, you do not belong to the world, but I've chosen you out of the world. This is why the world hates you. And it just it was such a visceral reminder for me that our role is not to be popular or accepted in culture. My dad, one of his main talks is this idea of soldier versus civilian, that we are not called to be civilians, that we're called to be soldiers, and that inherently comes with an expectation about the challenges we're gonna face, about the kinds of things that we're gonna do in society, that it's not always gonna be easy or peaceful. Foundationally, would you say that a lot of this is to do with the way we view ourselves in society in terms of what we expect, how palatable and accepted we expect to be as just, you know, congruent members of our whatever culture we happen to be in.

I totally I totally believe that's true. And I also think I think this is changing right now, but I think in the last probably twenty years, there's been a strong push on a cultural engagement model, among Christians. And and I understand the motivation for that, and I think it's good for us to engage culture. But that can also get tilted in the wrong direction where, you know, the bottom line is Jesus is a stumbling block. There's gonna be there's gonna be rejection.

That goes to the territory. I wouldn't even say it's a risk. It's more of a guarantee. And so there should be an expectation of pushback, an expectation that we're we're we're going to be sidelined or shouted down or canceled or whatever the case may be. So, and again, it that's not a risk.

We're not taking risk. That's a that's a promise in scripture that that's what's gonna happen. So, yes, I do think that there is a desire for cultural acceptance. I think I think the tension and you laid it out is some of this is a reaction to some really bad things, like the guy in the on the corner yelling at people. And and you look at that, and you go, dude, you're just causing more damage than anything else.

And so we're reacting to that. We're also reacting to to this kinda, like, preach it and hands raised, but is it even really having an impact? Are people really being saved? So there's reactions, I think, to that stuff. But I I think that what's so sad about avoiding the proclamation of the gospel is you are losing kind of the power of the gospel and the transformational power that proclaiming the gospel can do in in, you know, the first Corinthians one eighteen, which is it's both the foolishness and the power and is the dichotomy of I think that's because it forces us to not rely on human wisdom and eloquence, but God's power as we proclaim it.

But like if we don't preach the cross, then we're missing the power and and again, my my brother and I are very influenced by my dad. He talks about you can't have the miracles that Paul experienced without the riots that Paul experienced. And we want the miracles. We want the power. We want the transformation, but we don't really want the riots.

And I think they go hand in hand. So how how would you react to that? Especially, I guess, in sensitive context in unreached places around the world. Yeah. Well, one thing I would say is part of the problem here is we're prejudging the response.

That's really a dangerous thing for us to do. And I and I know for sure that I do this. Yep. You know? Yep.

If I if I face with a conversation with somebody and I'm thinking in my mind, you know, this person is not gonna wanna hear it. They're not you know, I'm coming up with all the reasons on why I shouldn't share the gospel, prejudging how they're gonna respond to what, you know, everyone whatever the thing is I'm gonna say. And, you know, we can talk about this around the world, and I've experienced this around the world. But monoculturally, my my own people, it's the exact same thing. It might even be worse, actually.

Yeah. Because I'm much more in tune with my own cultural cues about what would cause rejection or pushback. And so Sure. It's really a lousy thing to admit, but, essentially, you're condemning that person by prejudging what their expect what their, response is gonna be, and then neglecting what could be a very redemptive conversation and not having that conversation with them. That's good.

So how do we well, you kind of alluded to it. I think we move ourselves first. We we turn the the gaze inward at the logs in our own eyes as it relates to this issue because as you said, I I can do the same thing. I heard someone say essentially paraphrasing what you just said in the sense that, you know, don't say no for someone. Like, don't say no for for them.

And we do that. I do that. And but as it relates to those that responded with the, well, we don't do evangelism anymore or just the sort of the ubiquitous mindset now of doing anything but just proclaiming Christ and him crucified in a way and come what may as a result of that. How do we not turn into our own version of the guy yelling at the corner at those people? What is the appeal to them?

How do we appeal to their hearts as brothers and sisters in Christ to change this, to get back to proclamation evangelism? I mean, I I think that's, there's a lot there's a lot of different ways this that answer to that could go, but let me just back up one second and tell you a story from when I was on a field working in an Islamic culture about someone that I think we prejudged. There was we had a neighbor. It was a divorced mom, a couple of kids. It kinda had a hard edge about her.

And, I mean, we were we were living just doors down from her in the same neighborhood, and we never shared the gospel with her. And I just kind of assumed because of her crusty character, she just wouldn't be interested. And a couple months later, we find out she's in a bible study studying the scriptures with another missionary family that she'd met in town somewhere. And at one point, she said, you know, she actually asked us, why didn't you share this message with me? And I realized it was our prejudging.

It was our reluctance to to stick it out there. So so one thing I would just say and answer your question now is, really being cognizant of the motivations in our own hearts as to why we might avoid having a conversation. I'd say that'd be that'd be one thing. And I would I think it's healthy for us to do some self reflection. You know, what's keeping us from opening our mouths or having a conversation?

Should be one thing. But in terms of not being offensive, I think the answer is just to be very real and to, open your life up in a way that, you know, we talk about vulnerability. Well, if you're having a conversation with someone, they're going through a struggle. If the answer is just, well, Jesus can take care of that, that's one way of saying it. And it's true.

Jesus can't. But another way of talking about that, well, you know what? I had a very similar struggle. And they may say, well, how did you deal with it? And I said, well, in my case and you gotta open doors.

I would just say, really trying to draw people into conversations about the struggles that they're having and the struggles that you're experiencing and being transparent and vulnerable and open. That'd be one piece fit, but then acceptance of the fact that there is going to be rejection. And, again, it's not a risk. It's not a if. It's it's it will happen.

It's it's a promise of scripture and being being ready and willing. Probably also, something that's motivating for me is hanging out with people like you that are, bold. It it it catch it's catching. It's like it's like a virus. When you see somebody else being bold, it's easier for you to be bold.

I think, you know, that's another part of the answer. There's there's probably a lot of things we could talk through that would help us, you know, come up with ways that we could be more bold. With, I I kinda find it shocking to that you were saying that there's the kind of the pluralistic or relativistic mindset was actually starting to infect even leaders of mission organizations. Is that true? Mhmm.

Like, is are you is it subtly true? And that's kind of shocking. I would say there's some truth to that. I don't think the responses I'm receiving though are necessarily because of pluralism. I would say it's more because they're seeing evangelism in a different way.

But, you know, our leaders are like you and I. They have the same insecurities, the same concerns about rejection, rejection, etcetera. And so I'm sure they suffer from that same sense, of pushback and, you know, are cautious. I've I've I've had a conversation with leaders on a number of occasions that, many leaders become so ministry focused that their a 100 of their world is just inside the Christian bubble, and they're doing nothing to get outside of that bubble. That's also a part of boldness, and that is, you know, creating a context in which you're gonna be operating and working outside of your, Christian world.

In my case, that's it's it's hard to do that. I mean, I live in a I live in Orlando. I got Camp's Crusade up the road from me here. I got there's, like, seven mission agencies. I could live my entire existence inside of just Christian relationships.

And, we my my wife and I have taken, you know, direct we've made decisions to make sure that our relationship stream isn't dominated just by Christians. We played in a band here for almost a decade in Orlando. Our original part of our original motivation besides it was fun was we wanted to be out mixing it up with people that aren't, in church, four or five times a week. You know, we wanna be out there with the unreached. Now I play pickleball.

You talk about an awesome place, to make a lot of relationships. But making purposeful decisions to put yourself into a context where you're gonna have a chance to rub shoulders of people, I do think that's also part of boldness that we often miss out on. Yeah. Yeah. And, obviously, that's something that is a big part of Steiger's vision for not only missionaries and kind of the the frontline specialist, but the everyday believer to essentially follow the example of Jesus and become a friend of sinners.

Right? Like, that that is what Jesus did, and it was scandalous to the to the religious people of his day. But it takes an intentionality, which is why I actually in in in your context, I like the mindset the the missionary mindset because the the missionary doesn't end up in a foreign country reaching a foreign culture by accident. It's a very intentional, sacrificial chosen lifestyle. And that same mindset, I think, is what required to become friends with sinners because it doesn't just happen.

Actually, if you're in the church world, the opposite happens naturally. Right? Is you lose all your friends and you have no influence and no connection. So it takes a real intentionality and and kinda stepping through discomfort and being in scenes and places and, that you maybe naturally aren't drawn to in order to develop those relationships. And then even there, you've gotta pursue people and connect with them and go deeper than the superficial, which is so easy to do as well.

So there's an intentionality for living this life and to then being bold with that that lifestyle that you live that I think the culture both generally and in the church kinda lulls you to sleep. And it's not even like by design that you're not living a missional life, that you're not being bold. You just kinda get lulled to sleep and it takes that intentional counter pushing, you know, it's everything that we do. The disciplines of exercise, all of it. We gotta push against that in order to live this life.

So I I think that plays into it a ton. You know, last year, I went to a a fun event with with an organization called Jews for Jesus. Mhmm. We know them. And in in that event, they were talking about their founding, and they talked about how are we gonna call this organization?

They said, well, let's call it Jews for Jesus. And somebody said, it's not gonna offend the Jews. And somebody said, it's Jesus. It's Jesus that's the offensive part. And better for us to put it right up there in our name so that as people meet us, as people interact with us, there's no question about what we stand for, and this will be a door opener for us.

And I think that they found in the life of their organization that by being so bold about their identification with Christ that it's really, helped them be great evangelists. It's they're they're they're an example of an organization, I think, that's really laid it on the line in a positive way. Cool. Well, it's it's it's interesting, sorry, which is this mission drift of institutions that started out bold proclamation and drift away. Like, if that's true of the individual that you kind of you you morph away from bold proclamation unless you push to keep it.

I mean, so many organizations with rich histories of bold proclamation have lost that and and then I think have become something other than what they were. Right? And so it it kinda that that drift, I you see it not only in people and myself, but, like, institutions that were once vibrant proclamation ministries no longer the case. Yeah. I I do think that there is something to the fact that, what you know, for example, presentations that where you share somebody, like a four spiritual laws or a bridge illustration or something like that.

I do think the relevancy of that type of presentation has changed in our culture. So, you know, when I was a young believer, we we you know, we would do we did a ton of evangelism, on the campus that I was saved at, basically. We we made a pact one year with a group of 30 or 40 college students that were gonna try to share the gospel with every on campus student in one year. And, that school at that time had, I don't know, about ten, twelve thousand students on campus. And so we went door to door, and we used a bridge illustration, and it was actually with the navigators, and that's what we used.

But people had some biblical understanding and background. And so when you talked about Jesus, there was kind of like this, oh, okay. Yeah. I can connect that to what I know about Jesus. Now today, with the increased secularism, I do think a a short presentation like that, it it needs follow-up because people don't necessarily have that same level of understanding, that they wanna woulda had, you know, thirty thirty five, forty years ago.

But I but I feel like I'm talking a little bit to the to the choir here because you guys work with secular youth culture. Maybe I'm wrong about that. No. It but what I thought was what's really interesting is that, you know, you you talk methodology there and I we, of course, absolutely agree, that you, you know, like Paul before the Athenians, you need to understand your audience. You need to find the end and communicate the gospel to them in a way that's relevant.

Absolutely. But still, I'm struck by that kind of commitment. I'm trying to put myself in the position of, like, 30 students coming together and saying we're gonna do what it takes. You know, methodology aside, you had this burning desire to do that. That's true.

Yeah. That's amazing. And that's nothing to do methodology aside, that is an audacious, awesome passion that really pre precedes method. Like, the method was was relevant for the time. Now that needs to change.

All well and good. But methods wanna make a difference if that initial passion isn't there. And sometimes I kinda feel like we hide behind methodology when it's the passion that's not there. Mhmm. Like, if you really cared, you would really get to know.

And if you really got to know, you'd know how to communicate. So how do we get back to that? How do we awaken that initial audacious passion to do whatever it takes? And you'll make mistakes, but you'll figure it out just like I'm sure you did, and people will get reached. That's, I think, what we need to get back to.

You know, I think something that is always a great super great reminder for me is to really to think about and meditate on your first meeting with Jesus. You know? In my case, you know, I was a I was a pot smoking high school kid, went off to Mankato State University there in Minnesota, and I met some believers, And I went and got in this little bible study. I heard the gospel, and my life changed so dramatically in a very short amount of time. And the first that first love, being reminded of that first love and kinda trying to recapture and rekindle, that big change that happened, just even in the first days and weeks of becoming a believer.

That's super motivating for me and super helpful for me, not just because I wanna I want somebody else to have that same experience, but it just it just brings up in me the incredible love I have for Jesus, by what he did in my life. So I think one big motivator has to be what what Jesus has done in your own experience. Yeah. That's good. I do think, Ben's right though in in the sense that when we sometimes for the sake of being relevant and contextual, we lose the just bold passion.

And maybe that's part of where this conversation started. Right? Is is that a lot of the pushback for quote unquote evangelism is because it's a reaction to when evangelism was done poorly or not relevant in contextual. But in doing so, we've actually the burning desire and broken heart for the lost has been forgotten. And we have to go back to our first love and what Jesus did for us and I had an overflow for that.

I see people. So I I again, it's a it's a personal conviction for me because like you live in the Christian mission world and all about, you know, cool relevant strategies of reaching secular people, but you can become about that instead of a heart for the lost and wanting to see them reached. And, man, what would happen even if they weren't totally culturally irrelevant? We had more college students that were like, I'm gonna share the gospel. Our group is gonna share the gospel with every student on campus.

I think that would be incredible. Even if they're not doing it perfectly contextual, I think it would be incredible. Well, I can tell you, you know, people ask me what, you know, drew me into ministry, and I say, well, I went to this seminary called Mankato State. And what I mean by that was the best education for me as a young believer was being in a group of people that really did care about sharing the gospel. And, I mean, that really has I would say for my whole life that's carried me just remembering those experiences I had in sharing the gospel over.

And funny thing, it's almost like let's say another thing about evangelism is the more you do it and the more you practice that muscle, the easier it is to flex that muscle and use that muscle again in the future. And and I would just say, you know, if I go through stretches, kind of been one of those stretches right now where I could say I haven't really shared the gospel in a bold way for a while. You gotta get out there and exercise that muscle because it it's what keeps it healthy and keeps it, you know, ready to fire when you need it. Yeah. It's interesting because we Yeah.

One of the things we our vision right now for Stagger is to raise up what we call a thousand burning arrows or a thousand young missional leaders that would fuel evangelism and missions movements in cities. Amen. Love it. Yeah. And God's really in it.

It's cool. It's awesome. But it starts often with an experience of doing, like, kinda cold, creative street evangelism. And that even that can kinda have this connotation of street evangelism. Really?

Do we do that? Is that relevant? And first of all, people do get reached. We're saying no for people. Right?

Like going to that part of the thing, we see people reached, but we also see people sharing their faith in a clear, bold way. And it's it's so invigorating to their own faith like you just described. It actually strengthens that muscle and they see they step through discomfort and all that. And it's so good for the believer to do that kind of work. And, yeah, we've gotta do all the relational friendship evangelism in every sphere of influence we have.

But there's something really good about that old school, and we do it in creative relevant way, blah blah blah. But, like, street evangelism. Just go talk to a person you don't know. It's powerful. So, Aaron, I serve on a board, a foundation board.

And so this board's got a donor, and they give away a lot of money to global missions. And we have these board meetings where we get together and it's strategy and it's this organization and that organization. It's all high missiological stuff. It's kinda unique. Well, one of the times we're so we're meeting in Phoenix, Arizona, and one of the guys on the board said, hey.

Tonight, we're gonna go do street evangelism at, ASU. And I remember sitting well, I remember sitting. No. I didn't really come to this board meeting to be out on the streets at ASU going up and down. And I said, well, how are we gonna what's our plan here?

What are you gonna do? So we're just gonna go up to people and ask if they got anything they want us to pray for. And if they got a prayer request, we'll pray for them. You know? If they say, why would you do that?

Then we'll have an open opportunity to share the gospel. We'll just see what God does. Well, we went out and did it, and I gotta tell you, I went in as a big skeptic, and I came out thinking that was healthy for my soul. It's cleansing for me. Let alone the impact it's gonna have in that, you know, in in those people.

So There is, man, there's something so foundational about putting ourselves beyond ourselves in a way that only it's either gonna look really bad or God's gonna show up and we're gonna be we're gonna feel that sense of why don't I do this more. Right? And and we we have to fight for that. We have to fight for that. And I'll you know, just the the risk that it can become just a vocation or a profession and that Yeah.

It then becomes comfortable. And then as you said with, you know, you kinda mentioned these families in The Middle East and, you know, then you got then you got your rhythms and your structures and your school and it suddenly it becomes hard. And I would say the same can apply in our context or a church context where suddenly you kinda have your your standing and your reputation and your kids are on the sports teams and everything's kinda comfortable and every it becomes harder and harder to take those stands. But I feel like that intimacy with Jesus that leads to a broken heart, that leads you to take foolish risks beyond yourself to then see God move creates that healthy, not vicious cycle, but healthy cycle then reanimates your faith in the way that you just described. I mean, you know, for me personally, I do a lot in this kind of context behind screens, but I'll have this regular rhythm where I'll go on to the University of Minnesota and I'll do street interviews.

And, Ted, I hate it. Like, I love talking to people, but I hate the the one on one new person. That's not my personality. Uh-huh. It the cold call kind of thing.

I see. Get me Yeah. Aaron and I I know that was probably shocking. We'll put that as the YouTube video, but, Aaron will Aaron totally resonates with me. You get me in the conversation once it's going, I mean, I love it.

But that initial breaking through my introverted personality, terrible. So I I got a buddy. He's the videographer. He's like a Labrador. He's the opposite of me.

He can he can talk to anyone about anything at any time. So I pair myself up with him, and we go out, and I make myself do it. And I'd like in the car, and I'm like, I don't wanna do and it is the most refreshing faith stretching reinvigorating spiritually nourishing thing I maybe do and it just continues to remind me that we have got to not get professional about this. We've got to continue to to have that intimacy with Jesus and then take those risks. And sometimes it's okay just to be foolish.

Mhmm. Yeah. That's okay. It doesn't always have to be so slick. God can use foolish things too.

Yep. So about two weeks ago, I was out to dinner here at in Orlando at kind of a high end restaurant with, two people that are one one's an international director for a very large mission agency and, other guy's a funder. And the three of us are sitting around the table and ordering our food and whatnot. And at one point, this international director turns to the waitress, and he says, hey. We pray for our food, and we can throw on a prayer request for you.

You got anything for us to be praying about? And I felt embarrassed. And I watched her. She seemed a little embarrassed too. And she basically said, no.

I I don't really have anything, and she walked away. And, I don't know, two or three minutes later, she comes back to the table, and she said, hey. I wanna say thanks for asking to pray for me. There really is something I want you to pray about. She told us about a personal situation she was facing.

And so we stopped and we prayed for her, right then and there. But, again, I just I realized how that very, very simple I mean, what's risky about that? Nothing. There's nothing risky about it. Yet when it happened, I had this little gut reaction.

That didn't really feel right. But yet she wanted the prayer, and I just I would just say, I just observe in myself this propensity to to back off. And and now here I am, couple weeks later, I'm telling you about it because for me, it was a really positive teaching moment. And so doing evangelism, I think, is just it's refreshing. Yep.

Yep. And as our friend, Chad, who's one a regular on this podcast, say you gotta punch through the awkward. And part of it is not taking yourself so seriously. Like, you know, I mean, maybe even zoom out and realize your life is a mist and a vapor and, like, come on. You're not this little awkward interaction is really not that big a deal.

That's part of it. But I mean, I have so many stories. Real quick Chad story because it's so it was similar to what you just said, Ted. We were he and I were going to Ukraine and we were in New York flying. And he's the kind of guy that will, like, offer to pray for people very charismatic personality wise.

And, so we're I I board the plane. Right? Give him my boarding pass and I'm walking down the gate and I'm like, turn around like, where's Chad? And I look back and he's got both gate agents holding their hands, praying for them. And I'm like, this what are you doing, Chad?

This is so terribly awkward. And I was kinda mad at him. And then he finished praying and I'm like, just get on the plane. And then before we could get on the plane, one of the gate agents, like, rushed up to us. The one that he had prayed for said, can I talk to you please?

And he pulled us aside and he was, like, opening up and it was like this is really profound thing. Right? But But it was so incredibly awkward and I'm not saying that that was the necessarily the right move but it just humbled me and I was like, okay, God. It was It's not because I'm It was the right move. We could just say it was Well, either way, the point is like it humbled me to what you're saying.

Right? And it's that foolishness, the willingness and and we don't have to do that kind of stuff. The asking the waiter, but and also not just, you know, those contexts. There's plenty of ways to do it. But I I just challenged me in that and I I'm reminded of it often.

Okay. I gotta tell you one plane story since you told one. Yeah. I was flying to Africa. It was actually with that same board that I just mentioned earlier, and, my flight had gotten hung up.

They were already in New York City. We were all meeting up in New York City and flying out from there to Africa. And, so I got there late, and, you know, I ran through JFK. I had no check-in. I only had my bag with me, so I didn't have to wait wait for a bag.

And I get all the way to the gate, and they've closed the door. And I'm talking to this, this this flight attendant, and I grabbed my cell phone. I call my friends that are on the airplane. And I said, hey. I'm standing here, but they won't let me on the airplane.

And Steve says, hey. We're gonna we're gonna pray that they they let you on. And he turns around with his phone, and he says to the plane full of people, hey. I'm praying my friend gets on the airplane right now. Does anybody wanna join me in praying for this?

And I'm thinking to myself, man, I'm gonna be so embarrassed if I do get on that airplane. Well, I'm standing there waiting. The manifest has already been completed. And that's usually when there's nobody on the Yeah. It's over.

Yeah. That's And, I'm talking to this this, they call them red coats on Delta, kinda like the boss at the gate. And she goes, well, believe it or not, there's a little bit of a problem, and we're going to see if we get your name on the manifest. And pretty soon they run out there, they check my name, they check my passport, they put my name on there. I said, what's the problem?

They said, the door won't shut on the airplane. I said, what are you talking about? I go down the jet bridge, and the door is halfway shut. I have to literally drop down on all fours with my bag and crawl onto the airplane. When I when I stood up What?

The whole front of the airplane was standing up cheering because I made it out of the airplane. Yeah. And then I often been hearing these guys praying that I would get on the airplane. The whole rest of that flight was like a party. That's cool.

And as we, you know, went up and down the aisles, people would stop me and, hey, you know, I that was really something to see. And the fact that that door went open, that was like a real miracle. And, anyway, boldness is all it took was a little bit of boldness to really have an incredible experience with a lot of folks on an airplane about what Jesus can do. And by the way, I got on and not even two minutes later, that door shut right up and off we went. Now I'm not saying that's a miracle.

It might be. It is. It sure it sure opened a lot of doors for us to, identify with Jesus and to show that he does do awesome things for his people. Yeah. Miracle or not, it was a way cooler story than Aaron, so that's a win either way.

You know, it's just sad because we live in this self imposed risk adverse prison. Right? Like, because even the secular world admires that. We all admire it, and yet we all keep ourselves contained. It's like we all admire the person who just goes anywhere and does anything.

And, you know, the Aaron loves this YouTube channel called the Yes Theory. It's all about just saying yes and pushing through fear and making the impossible happen just because you try. Yeah. And and they talk you know, all the studies indicate that lack of risks is one of the biggest regrets at the end of people's lives, that they just played it too safe. So even just built into the fabric of our human collective human experience is a recognition that the best of things happens when we take extraordinary risks.

And then, of course, you that I think is a shadow of a spiritual reality, but then you infuse that with true truth, and it's extraordinary. It it it becomes the substance of things we were meant to live for. That's true. As opposed to just a cultural nominal social club thing that we do. That's never what it was meant to be about.

And, yeah. Anyway, this has been this has been really inspiring and fun. I appreciate One thing I wanna say, and more for the sake of the audience is, in Steiger, we have something called the Steiger Streets Guide. And, basically, it's a guide. It's on the Steiger website.

It's a resource. We're about to redo the website. But you go to the website, you'll find it. And and it's on the resource page at the bottom. And what it is is it's just creative tools that you can use to engage in creative street evangelism.

And if you're like you know, and grab a few friends. And they're very simple things that spark spiritual conversations that lead to Jesus. So check out it's called the Steiger Street Guide. We we're updating it, like, annually with new creative ideas, but it's just a simple tool that you can use to exercise this. Yep.

And, and we do a lot of these open creative evangelism events in cities around the country, around the world. In fact, if you're in the Minneapolis area, June 14, Stone Arch Bridge Festival, we're doing one. If what we just said, you're like, I should do that. Well, you have a chance to do it right here, and take advantage of these opportunities, and you'll experience what we're describing here. It's such a powerful thing.

Well, I just gotta say, love what you guys are doing. I know you're bold, and, it's it is inspiring. And, I really appreciate Steiger and your ministry. Thanks, Ted. Thanks, Ted.

Well, we're in this together and, excited for future work together. And, keep it up. And remember, just, if you gotta crawl on a plane, sometimes that's what you gotta do. Skoll Vikings. Skoll Vikings.

And Skoll Vikings. Skoll Vikings. Yeah. That's right. Alright.

Thanks, Ted. Appreciate it.