Lukas Ruegger (Deflate) on Surviving the Awkward Truth of YouTube

Lukas Ruegger is the creator of the very popular apologetics YouTube channel deflate. It has had millions of views, thousands of comments and has produced a lot of buzz in the internet apologetics space. He's also a Swiss guy who moved his entire family to Beirut, Lebanon, and has devoted his life to reaching Muslims for Jesus. And on top of all that, he's a dear friend of mine and a fellow Steiger missionary. I've had him on the podcast a few times, and this conversation was awesome. We talked about apologetics and the online space, but we also talked about the challenge of how do you present Jesus to Muslims living in Western context or living in more conservative Muslim contexts, but are just more westernized, more influenced by the global youth culture? And I think this is relevant to almost all of us, because we are interacting with people who are very culturally Muslim or nominally Muslim, similar to how young people are culturally Christian or nominally Christian. And this presents a unique, dynamic and a unique challenge for how to present Jesus to them. So this conversation is awesome. It's practical. And like I said, Lucas is a friend and he's brilliant. So you're gonna love this entire episode. And he is one of the many reasons why I keep promoting Steiger, because we have this worldwide missions organization of hundreds of missionaries, thousands of volunteers, and over two hundred and sixty cities around the world. And we are reaching young people, especially, who would not walk into a church. It's an incredibly dynamic mission. You need to check it out and get to know more people like Lucas, who are dynamic members of this awesome ministry. So go to Steiger. Org. And then lastly, as always, I encourage you if you'd be willing to share this episode, maybe there are people in your life who are consistently interacting with Muslims, whether it's at work, at school, just in daily life, and they wonder, how am I supposed to reach people like that? Or for those who are in the internet space or apologetics space, there is a lot of value to this conversation and if you'd be willing to share it, that would mean the world to me. Ultimately, the best form of growth is and always has been, word of mouth. So if you'd be willing to do that, I would greatly appreciate you. You can always leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you happen to listen to this. Enough of me. Let's get on to the conversation with YouTuber, missionary and all around awesome dude Lukas Ruger. You're listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. The awkwardness of the intro is always so thick and palpable that I just skip all that. But then for a while, I tried to be all cool, like Joe Rogan, and I was like, all right, all right, well, we're recording, you know, but I didn't have, like, a whiskey in my hand, you know? And I wasn't like, high on some drug, so that didn't fit. So I'm still trying to figure out who I am, but. Lukas what's up? Dude, welcome to the pod. Thank you. Ben. Was that good? Was that awkward or was that good? No. That's perfect. In fact, I mean, I listened to a podcast. It's called inspired with my son every night. And the guy just I mean, he's my friend. He's like, his name is Simon. He's from the UK. He consistently starts his podcast the same way or fairly the same way. And it's quite I mean, he's got much, much longer introduction than you have, but he just sticks to the script. And that's all right with me. I've learned about my personality that like I tend to ease into conversations and even though obviously we're friends and part of the same mission and we've known each other for years, like when it comes to guests that I don't know, I have just discovered that I am my worst and most awkward in the first, like two minutes. Like. And it's bad, man. Like the amount of awkward intros I've done with, like, these, all these crazy guests and I just fumble over my words and I make some joke that doesn't make sense. And yeah, but most I don't know what it is. Most probably it just sounds awkward to you, but most people won't realize there being any awkwardness. So it's a personal struggle and I edit out anything that makes me look bad. Lucas. Don't worry about it. That's good anyway. So, dude, it's been a long time. Like I already said, we have known each other for. I don't know, when did we first meet? I don't even remember. Probably in two thousand, fourteen, fifteen. Something like that in Germany. Was it in. Was it Germany or Lebanon? No, it must be Germany, because, yeah. I think the first time you were in Lebanon with the guys, I wasn't there yet. You were there in two thousand and seven or so, two thousand and nine. My first tour was two thousand and eight. Yeah, I wasn't there yet, and I don't think we toured in Lebanon that first year. All right. So okay. Okay. Anyway, so we've known each other for a long time. We are fellow, uh, what do we call ourselves? Missionaries in this, uh, this crazy family business that my parents started? Steiger. We also exist in similar spaces online. And I don't know how many years ago you started deflate, but it's been a while since we've talked on the podcast. And so I thought it would be cool to talk about deflate apologetics, the Middle East. I have questions about just how to engage with a muslim as a follower of Jesus in general, because I think a lot of people struggle with that. So just I want to talk about all of that. But first, maybe brief introduction for people who don't know you, your role in the mission and then specifically what you're doing with deflate. All right. So my name is Lucas. I'm married to Denise. We've got three kids. We just came back to Switzerland after having lived in Lebanon for thirteen and a half years. We've pioneered the work of Steiger there in Beirut, the capital, and handed that over to George and his team, a local Lebanese team who's carrying forward the work of reaching young people in in Beirut. We like our work in, in Beirut was I mean, it wasn't just apologetics. It took a very like apologetics twist in the beginning because we had a Bible study for for non-believers in a cafe that drew a lot of just students, post-grad students a lot. I mean, basically just students and people who who graduated from university. Lots of kind of nerdy, brainy people. Uh, but after that, as things developed, it took a more kind of community apologetics, like a Francis Schaeffer type of type of turn, with people just hanging out together while having discussions, people going on hikes and camping trips and having, you know, deep conversations about the faith and about life. And all of this led to the opening of what you could call a cultural café, where we like three years ago or a bit more than three years ago when we opened that space, the goal was to consolidate and and expand the reach that we had among young people in the city. And so it's really this has become a space for for people to, you know, just during the day to hang out, do their work, do their meetings. And then in the evenings, there would be typically two to three events, sometimes four events a week where people get engaged just in community, you know, low key stuff like trivia nights or movie nights, but then obviously, obviously also like Bible study meetings or discussion events and open mic gatherings and that sort of thing. And so yeah, so that's what we launched in Beirut again, handed it over, just came back four months ago to to Switzerland. And my current role in the mission revolves specifically around, I mean, just mentoring the work that is happening in Lebanon. And then there's other stuff in the region that we're trying to pioneer a campaign in Saudi Arabia that is going to involve a trip with around fifteen people in two weeks from now. So beginning of December, I'm excited about that. And I'm also involved in just the refining and developing of our training programs in Steiger. So and besides that, I mean, you mentioned the YouTube channel. Yes, I've started five years ago, but then when we opened the living room, our cafe in Beirut. I had to put everything on hold there. So I basically went black on the, on YouTube for for more than a year. And since now I'm just trying to get, uh, settled in to my life in Switzerland. I'm, I'm not consistently posting, so it's a bit of a I'm not where I want to be or back where I want to be with the channel. It's just. But but yeah, I eventually or Lord willing, I will get back into the creation cycle and into posting and engaging with people and that sort of thing. Yeah, the YouTube world is a grind. And uh, as you know. Well, and honestly, it's not something you can just kind of do on the side and it is kind of an all or nothing game. So it must have been a little bit hard because, I mean, your your channel has gotten a lot of traction and a lot of interaction, a lot of engagement, a lot of comments, a lot of people enjoying it. And so that must have been hard to lay that down. Yep. I had a very good or glorious if you will start my first year, the whole thing just exploded. I had just lots of good engagement from pretty big atheist channels, and this may have been the one thing that God wanted to use this channel for so far is I've met with Alex O'Connor, who's probably, I think it's safe to say that he is the most serious, most thoughtful, and most respectful. I mean, atheist isn't even an atheist anymore. Agnostic out there in in the online world. I met with him personally. It was it was facilitated by actually Justin Brierley from back in the days from unbelievable. And we had an in-person, uh, conversation that was recorded by Justin, uh, about God's hiddenness and the the beautiful thing. I mean, we had a great conversation. Great. The conversation was great, and it went quite personal at times. But I think the the most beautiful thing was I got to spend that whole day after the recording. I mean, we recorded for like two hours, but the rest of the day it was just Alex and I spending it together. He showed me around his house and where he would record. We went together to London together and just talked just personal stuff. So that was that. I guess that was the most. Yeah, that was the most beautiful thing. Yeah. On that note, like obviously there is a growing integration between the online world and the physical world, and it's hard to differentiate. And for some people they spend way too much on one rather than the other. Obviously. You know, you also mentioned this cafe, which was so brilliant and so cool, and there's a whole conversation there that we've had before. Yeah, that I'd love to talk about. Maybe not today, but just this, this idea of how to start small and how to be faithful and how to really produce fruit. I think that's a whole powerful testimony. And so, again, let me just reiterate for those listening, like you have this essentially thriving physical space where people of all kinds of beliefs, you got secular Lebanese young people, Muslims kind of all sorts because that, you know, for for those who know the city, it's a very diverse place from an ideological perspective. Yeah. All kind of meeting they're encountering Jesus. So that's amazing. Um, but I guess the question I have related to this as we're on this subject is how does a follower of Jesus make sense of the online world and the impact it really is having? And, you know, because because what you said is you said that one of the great things that came out of it was that you got to physically be with Alex, which, of course, is not going to be the experience with most people who interact with this stuff. Yeah. So what are the opportunities and also what are the the limits. Like where is it just so much information and just what is it producing I guess is the question in the most simplest sense. Yeah, I think kind of to work it backwards. I would say that in order for someone to be an authentic follower of Jesus or to be in an authentic relationship with Jesus, there's got to be an an like a real life physical community aspect to it. I mean, the church. I don't believe in online churches or online gatherings. At least I'm not a great fan of it. Let's put it this way, right? I do think that someone who authentically and genuinely pursues Christ will want to be in an underground fellowship or church at some point. I think there is no way around that. Um, at the same time, I do think that the online world at the same time can take you very far. And I don't think in this dichotomy of on the ground real life meetings being, you know, being so amazing, although it is and the online world just being all that generic and digital and and distant and cold, I don't think that's the case. I do think both from my own experience with how I relate to creators that I follow and from my experience, people do develop a relationship with you over the screen. That's what happens. People don't just they don't just watch your stuff or they don't just engage with your stuff in order to get educated or to get entertained or to learn something, although it is that as well. But people who actually follow you, they do have a, if you will, a relationship with you. They are following you because they're intrigued by your story and they're intrigued by who you are, not so much because they want to learn what you've got to offer. Although again, it is that as well. But that is I would say there is there is a deep relational aspect to what happens online. And so that's why now, now again, that isn't to say that, you know, you can you can follow Jesus just by following some YouTube preacher or whatever. I mean, you can go a far away, but at some point, again, I do think that genuine commitment to Christ will lead to genuine commitment to a local church as well. But on on the flip side, again, I'm against kind of this dichotomy between, you know, portraying digital as all cold and distant and and unrelatable and the on the ground stuff as the real deal. Only there is, I think part of what makes content good is it's it's relatable and relatable in terms of to the person, to the creator. Yeah, yeah, there's an irony there where it's like, even though you're on a screen and it's digital, the degree to which you're able to realness, genuineness, authenticity is really the degree to which you're going to be received and engaged online. That's right. And so, I mean, I guess the reason why I ask is I kind of am trying to envision a Generation all wanting to become YouTubers. Yeah, right. And many of them being followers of Jesus and trying to help understand how to disciple a generation that sees that as a real thing. And to help them navigate the potential, but also the limitations. Yeah. You say you've had beyond, of course, your unique engagement with a very high profile guy, Alex O'Connor. You've had more than just that as evidence that there's fruit in this, otherwise you wouldn't be returning to it. I would assume you just take advantage of the break to bail. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, with most people that engage with your content, I mean, with ninety nine point nine percent of the people who engage you online, you do not have the opportunity to meet them offline. It's just not going to happen. But I do think that by you engaging. Well, again, if you if you go with, you know, DMs and you're really following up with people and that sort of stuff and potentially even arranging and I've had that on my channel to people who would call me or not call me, but they would want to discuss stuff and asking for a zoom meeting. And so I would have a zoom meeting with some guy in Pakistan and once with some professor in Zurich or whatever. So. So that happens. I mean, that already is a next level of personal relationship. It's you're engaging at least over screen in a personal manner. Um, so I think as a content creator or as people who aspire to be, you know, Christian content creators or whatever, I think it is very important for if you're going to do this thing seriously and in a way that actually edifies the body of Christ and actually, you know, have a bigger, bigger vision you need you've got to be aware of the fact, well, that first of all, this is not about you. This is not about you amassing followers and, you know, making a name for yourself. And this is I mean, this is not to be underestimated. Lots of this is a temptation that will haunt you as long as you're doing this thing and this is, you know, the temptation of numbers and the temptation of glory, temptation of popularity. This is for, I mean, the best some of the biggest Christian content creators, they they struggle with this. And so you've just got to be I mean, you you need everyone who's, who's aspiring or thinking about whether they should get on this platform and do this sort of thing. They really need to have a I mean, you've got to have a reality check and you've probably got to have a sober mind. Yeah, very sober minded view of the whole thing, sober mind. And you may want to you may want to get yourself a good like a good not counselor but but some like a fellow along the way to whom you're accountable. Um, so that's one thing. And the other thing is, is, um, yeah, you've got to have you've got to go into this thing with a bigger vision of, well, again, I mean, if you agree that following Jesus authentically or that calling people to follow Jesus authentically will have to have some sort of offline component to it. You've got. You've got to see yourself in that, in that bigger picture vision, you may not be the one who is responsible to make, you know, on the ground. Follow up meetings with people. But you've got to be your role in the body of Christ as a as a as a content creator is will only be fruitful. I think if you've got some sort of awareness that, well, the digital, the digital world as beautiful and as effective and as again, still relatable as it is, it's not the whole picture. It can't be. And I think that's that's important. So it's you've got to it's a matter of recognising, you know, the different gifts in In the body. Yes. You are called to be content creators, but if you're just out there, you know, filming yourself in your apartment or whatever and cranking out content and just amassing followers and doing your shorts and reels and what have you, without having an awareness that you're supposed to serve the body of Christ with what you're doing and the body of Christ, among other things, doing the, you know, offline follow up type of work and you intentionally kind of pursuing ways in which the the traffic that you generate will actually lead to some sort of offline engagement. Well, I think you're doing something wrong. And I know lots of Christian content creators. They do that. This can be as simple as just encouraging your followers to go to church on Sunday. You know, if you know that, you know, that sets a good example of well, guys, you know, I'm off. I'm out on Sunday, I'm going to church. And you better you better do so too. Yeah. Right. Right. I think the body of Christ thing is crucial, right? Because I think that we need all of it working in concert. Yeah. And the problem, I think, by definition, is content creators, especially online, can be more siloed. Right. Because you don't need anyone. I mean, you do it depending on how large the scale of what you're doing is, but you can be more siloed. You can kind of do it on your own. And I think that's part of the challenge, even along with that. And I don't want to get too myopic just on content creators, because that doesn't represent everyone. It's a relatively small percentage. But the other thing I've kind of struggled with is several months ago, I was listening to the Rhett McLaughlin interview with Alex O'Connor, of all people. Yeah. And he uttered this very damning sentence about how well I'm offering up to all of the pariah, all of the Christian reaction sharks and podcasters. I know what I'm doing. I'm basically giving them their next week's worth of content. Yeah, and I felt very convicted by that. And I just so happened to be in a season where I was interviewing a lot of guys like Ruslan, I interviewed. Yeah, wise disciple and like all these different guys, and for better or for worse, I brought that up to him them and like, I don't know how they felt about it in the moment because it was a little bit like, this is us, this is you, this is what we're doing. But I guess the larger macro question related to that is just the internet is not set up for you to produce thoughtful, nuanced, slowly delivered, you know? Oh, I'm gonna take a while off because now I gotta foster this following into an in real life person event. No, it's not designed for that. It's designed to get you to crank it out, to be on the extreme edges of the polarization, to to push the extremes. Like, given all those realities, given that, you know, it's kind of like the expression the system is perfectly designed to produce the results that it creates. Do we not all slowly just find ourselves becoming slaves to a system that is not about you preaching the gospel? It's really more about you just making content that everyone's going to get sucked into. Yeah. Yeah, man. Man I, I'm struggling with that. And I don't have like an answer to your question because on the one hand I agree that the system and I think over the last five years even more so with with YouTube coming up with the shorts thing, which they didn't have before, and just the obviously then TikTok and that's that sort of stuff. It lots of the developments are into the direction of just again, hi, just shortened, condensed, uh, polarized. And, you know, the weirder the better or the more extreme the better and, and more people watch it, so I so that's definitely a development I see happening. And that is kind of, you know, accelerating it seems so as time goes by. But at the same time there are lots of chat. There are lots of people who produce this, as you said, this thoughtful, slow two and a half hour content. And they still I mean, they they get a lot of traction. I mean, talk about Jordan Peterson or, uh, I mean Alex O'Connor, for that matter. I mean, lots of his stuff is really long and really deep, and yet, uh, like, his stuff gets gets lots of views. Uh, there's another guy I follow, Gavin Ortlund from Truth Unite. He's like a Protestant. Apologetics. Apologetics dude. Yeah. Uh, like, lots of just, you know, him talking to the camera, but he, like, he's growing. I feel like. You know what I mean? There is definitely what you're saying. And it's. I definitely feel the, you know, the the pressure to conform to that and to go into that mode of of delivering and communicating and producing as, as ugly as it may seem at points. But then there is the other stuff where like people just doing, you know, normal lectures and just getting views like crazy. So I it's, it's very schizophrenic to, to some degree. I, I really don't know how to handle this because I've Or how to view how to discern this. I've even thought for myself. Well, given that again, some guys are just, you know, growing perfectly fine with unedited, raw, slowly talking, deep, really nerdy content. Maybe I should just be doing that too, and just forget about the whole, you know, highly produced and cool extreme whatever content. I really don't know the answer to your question. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah. No nobody does. That's that's what makes it so frustrating. Um, yeah. No, I get it, dude, because I wrestle with the same thing. And I think, I think part of it is no different than any other creative industry. I mean, you know, I'm in the process of kind of reworking the material for revolutionary, which is our book on how to how to be an evangelistic artist. And it's amazing how for all of the principles and all of the ideas and all of the thought, so much of it just comes down to money, like just purely in the sense that the industry is set up in a certain way. And in order to be successful within the way the industry is set up, you have to play and conform to certain rules. And those rules just compress everybody's visions and dreams into this one monolithic thing that the industry demands. And so now then, some outlier will come along who's bold and dares to be different. But then that just becomes the new industry standard that everybody has to conform to. And so, so much of this in the at least when we were writing this for the music and art world, seemed to imply liberate yourself from that and just don't worry about it. Be. Be. And this sounds very pragmatic, but just be funded specifically in a different way. Yeah. And then you don't have to worry because in the end of the day, like as much as the ego boost is in the likes and the clicks, and also just the sheer idea that people are actually caring and watching, ultimately it is financial for a lot of people, right? They have to continue to produce on that level because that's how they're providing for their families. Yeah. And so I guess part of it is if you believe in what you're doing and really feel like God is calling you to do it, and then you're just doing that as effectively and authentically and faithfully as possible. I guess you just persevere in that and trust God for the results. Yeah. And and if he wants to, to make that big quote unquote, by the world's definition, then he'll do that. Otherwise he won't. And that's okay too. Yeah. You know, content creators, they think always in terms of algorithm. And you know what how to how to optimize your content and audience retention and all of this stuff and how to, you know, gain more traction and get more influence, blah, blah, blah. But I think most, most church goers who just watch these things every now and then whenever they see a need and are not, you know, online nerds. Um, I think they actually don't. They don't see it kind of that. Seriously. They will say, well, if you you know, I believe in your vision, if you want to reach people online and, you know, I see that you're doing this faithfully and authentically. I think they don't care so much about, you know, how successful you are in terms of numbers and stuff, which is which is quite which is quite encouraging, actually. You know, it is. It is. And you do have to ultimately ask yourself, it's like at at what cost? Right. Because if you can be quote unquote successful and do what you feel like God is calling you to do, great. But if you slowly but surely turn into some weird meme reaction guy that you never wanted to be in the first place, but that's just where you got pulled, then. Then you've become big. And to what end? I mean, it kind of reminds, kind of reminds me like how, you know, when TikTok was first going, we thought, what if we could make like because we had no idea how TikTok algorithms worked and nobody really did, right? So we thought, well, what if we kind of, you know, take this idea like our show no longer music combines kind of fun and lighthearted and joy, but then it gets serious. And so I had that same vision for TikTok. I thought, if we can be fun and funny and humorous, but then also weave in serious stuff, maybe there's a value in that. Well, what happened is the funny stuff blew up. Yes. And no one cared about the serious stuff. Yeah. So then like all of a sudden we're getting millions of views on these stupid videos, which admittedly were really fun to make, if I'm honest. Yeah, but it just didn't work. And so then at some point, you know, we just had to get real and be like, this isn't working. We can't keep doing this. Yeah. Um, so there are limits of the system in the paradigm that you're functioning within. And you just have to accept that for what it is. Yep, yep. I get you Ellen Parr, I don't know. I mean, he's a he's a big Bible teaching type of channel. Uh, he's got, I guess, a bit more than a million subscribers on YouTube. Just very basic, simple Bible teaching. Nothing. Nothing too deep. I mean, solid, but nothing overly deep, but he once talked about, I think a year ago or so. He once talked about his frustration, both for himself but about his audience, that if he makes some comment video about, you know, what some celebrity recently said or what this person said, if he makes a reaction video to that, he gets ten times more views than if he teaches on Ephesians one for ten minutes, you know? And so he said, he said, man, that's just, you know, that's that's nuts. And and he did I like that. He said, well, that, you know, to confess. He said, well, kind of that makes me want to create more the type of content that gets traction. But then like what's, you know, what's the substance and just commenting on what this guy says and what that guy says, there's really you know, it's just not that there's far less substance to it than if you actually dig into the word and do some, you know, do do, do do a deep dive into into scripture and culture, right? So yeah, I don't know. And that's a it's a chicken and egg argument. Right. Because at the end of the day it it's an internet problem but it's a human problem. Exactly. That's it. Yeah I was talking to Sky last week and he was like on his whole series, like, what if Jesus was serious about dot, dot, dot? He said the two least popular in the series were prayer and justice. You know, because he's like, he's like, I guess if I want to move the needle, I can't talk about prayer or justice because people don't give a crap like I. Yeah, but that's the problem, right? That's the problem in this world. Is that you? Yeah. You have to not let the wrong thing pull you forward. You have to be faithful and and you have to resist that because you, like you said, there's this magnetic pull that this validates my existence. Yeah. If I'm getting X, then then that means that Y was worth it. And in the absence of that, you kind of feel like I had someone say to me the other day, like some, stupid thing. Like, I just love that you guys just don't care if your views are small or, you know, something like that. And in my head, I'm like, I, of course I care. You're basically we we suck and you keep going anyway, you know, like, yeah, I don't know, maybe Chad said that. I don't remember who said that, but. All right, let me do a hard right turn here. Um. Go ahead. You have spent so much of your life, even though you're a Swiss guy in the Muslim world. You know, you were in Lebanon forever, raised your family there. Now you're leading this initiative in Saudi Arabia. Um, tell me about that. I this is incredibly anecdotal in my mind, but I just feel like, does the big C church are they as focused or concerned with the Middle East as they they might have been? I don't know why, but it feels like it's not as much of a thing or even there's like a, um, a weird politicization of it where I think there was like a there was a heightened awareness or, uh, fear of the Middle East and the whole, like the rise of ISIS and the sort of the terrorist thing. And now I kind of feel like it's it's not as much on the radar for people. What's twenty twenty five like in the Muslim world? What are Gen Z and Gen Alpha Gen are pretty young, but Gen Z Muslims like and you know, yeah. Just what have been some eye opening moments and where are things going? Uh, both as it relates to Steiger, but just in general in that whole part of the world. Yeah. Well, I think just in a very basic level, lots of Muslims are not they, you know, again, your Gen Z or anyway, generally young Muslims are not as concerned or not as preoccupied with Islam as many people think. It's just I mean, it's really the equivalent of, of Christians in the West. It's it's a nominal thing. It's a traditional thing, uh, that you couldn't care less about. And you these guys are just as exposed to the ideas of relativism and sexual liberation and Anti-authoritarianism and what have you as people are in the West and they're they're just as educated. And I would even say I mean, they may in many cases, I feel the guys in the Middle East, they're even. You can say, Lucas, we're all just dumb. They are a bit more just more educated and more. Or they know better. They know better how to, you know, educate themselves and do their research and kind of push life forward because and I think one of the reasons for that is and several other people, like Westerners who've lived in the Middle East have told me or have shared that they have the same impression, is that in most cases in the Middle East, the government simply doesn't provide you with the infrastructure and education and all the system and all the fluff and the social network or the social securities that you have in the West. So it's just from a young age you You'll realize. In fact, again, from the moment you enter school, you realize that you've got to take care of yourself, and that just leads to a sense of just greater resource like that. This generates greater resourcefulness, greater resilience, in many cases greater just, you know, a greater incentive for self-education and that sort of thing. And that's why I think lots of people I've met in the Middle East when compared to people I know in Switzerland or Germany, you know, by, you know, at the same age, it's just people. Many Middle Easterners are just more aware and they they just know how to handle life or how to handle challenges, the challenges of life in some ways better than people do in the West. So that again, people are super educated, super aware of what's happening, and they just strive after the same freedoms and looking kind of aspiring to kind of live by the same values as people do in the West. Now, having said that, it is not just all the same, because one of the big differences is that pressure from society and family, and just the weight of tradition and culture is far heavier than in the West. So there is whereas you know, your your you know, your eighteen year old or seventeen year old or whatever in in Zurich or London or in New York can basically do however they please, more or less. That's just not the case with your seventeen or eighteen year old in Beirut or or, uh, you know, Riyadh or whatever, because the family, like, family matters. And unless you please your family to some degree or another, you're just going to have you're going to have problems in life Professionally, socially. And so that creates a weird dynamic of, again, aspirations for the same relativistic and, you know, liberal values as you would find them in the West. But, you know, breathing down people's neck in the Middle East is again culture, tradition, religion that just plays a much more important role than it does in the West. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that that will have, if it's not already having like a backfire effect, where maybe if there's more of a gradual liberalization of these countries and you have this dichotomy of their desire to be as liberated as their Western peers, but they feel this, you know, almost like nineteen fifties us, like traditional like and probably far more extreme than that, whether it be being completely ostracized from your family or worse. Is there a sense that there's a desire to rebel from that, or is it successfully kind of suppressing the change in those regions? Yeah, it's it's I mean, it's it's complex to some extent. I think some people in, you know, some young people in the Middle East are somewhat happy, kind of silently happy that there is the kind of tradition puts a check in place about all these, you know, developments. But because they do, and rightly so, to be honest, they do look to the West and seeing, you know, just liberalism going, going nuts and people, you know, people going nuts and people changing back and forth their gender and what have you. And they feel like, well, if this is where we're going to end up, we may not actually want to go down that route, you know. Yeah. So so I think some people are, are kind of torn between, well, should we really, you know, should we really kind of run after what we, what we're running after? Or is it actually good that someone kind of keeps us in check. Um, interesting. Yeah, I do think this is, um. Yeah, this is a this is a weird dynamic. It's not just like people, you know, again, people are aware enough that not everything you know, that is Western is amazing. And so, you know, but at the same time, I at the same time, I would say no one wants to go back to, you know, hardcore Sharia law rule and where like, people are not happy that, you know, the family kind of or society and religion dictates so many aspects of your private life. That's again, people don't want to go back to that either. So yeah. Right. Interesting. It speaks to the kind of what even psychologists will say about healthy parenting. Yeah, that of course you don't want either extreme of complete dominance or total liberty. Yeah, right. Even kids kind of want to know within the confines of this enclosed playground, I have freedom. Yeah, right. And it's almost as if they can see, like they have seen the outworkings of total, unmitigated, unbridled liberalism and the ridiculousness that it's producing. And they're like, ah, some rules are all right. Like, we're okay with some of this rule. So as it relates to the gospel, uh, what is it? Have things changed in your mind? What do you anticipate going to Saudi for the second time? Yeah. As it relates to engaging with the people that are in this kind of free, but not totally free reality. Yeah, I think, I mean, I mean, there's still lots of us for us to learn in terms of, again, Saudi culture, Saudi mindset. I mean, it's not the same. You know, the Middle East is not, uh, it's not the Middle East. Lebanon is different from Saudi Arabia. And I think one of the things that you can definitely sense going into Saudi Arabia is that there's this kind of opening of the country, which really is done in the name of economic development. I mean, the royal family just wants their country to develop economically, and that's why they're culturally and socially breaking. Open up their country. And what one of the impressions that we had while being there a year ago is that this is a process. Again, this kind of top down, um, opening of the country is kind of is a process that goes really fast. That goes far too fast for people, which is why there is a sense of people just being like super lost and confused. I mean, I mean, Aaron, your brother would say that the, the, the metaphor that he that came to his mind is it's like kids being given just so much candy and they're feeding on candy and they're getting a sugar rush. And that's definitely I mean, that's that's quite an apt description of, of what you encounter when you talk to people. It's they will all, um, confirm to you that, again, things are changing for the better. And it's great that the old days and you know, the religious strict rule is over. But at the same time, they're given so much more freedom at this stage, in far too short of a time that they can't quite handle it. And so, um, I mean, what this means for us when it comes to proclaiming the gospel is you've you've got to be aware that people are very lost, very lost and confused, and that offering the hope of the gospel will kind of you offer the hope of the gospel in a huge kind of vacuum or limbo of, well, I'm completely disoriented and you know what is happening with me anyways? And, you know, maybe this, well, this Jesus thing. Okay. Fair enough. But then, like, I could might as well just go back to Islam if you want stability, that sort of thing. It's, um, there's. Yeah, I do feel that people are just in this vast, uh, Space, kind of ideologically speaking, without, I mean, and just existentially speaking really without having any, any sort of anchor to hold on to or, I mean, the one anchor that they would have, which is, again, Islam is not that, you know, attractive anymore. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. It's it's like when you're familiar with your context, you have sort of these cultural and historical paradigms to pivot around. So it's like if you're speaking to an average young American, right? You, you, you know that essentially they're living in a culture that historically was Judeo Christian. Yeah. And slowly but surely that's been eroding. So they're familiar with the language and they're familiar with it, but they're familiar with it in a very religious way. And they would even admit that that for most of them, they haven't really experienced it for themselves. Those that are not just actually Christian or even maybe still kind of nominally Christian. And then they've been presented with this, this countervailing idea of secular humanism. When you come and step into that space, you're able to go, hey, this religious thing in, in one level is here. Let's put that over here. This is the competing secular humanism. Now, let me paint a picture of who Jesus really is and differentiate them from all three. And so you have those bedrocks to kind of yeah, those are anchors that you can navigate around in these conversations. And what I have found is so here in Minnesota, where I'm from, there's a pretty large Somali population. And so there's quite a few, you know, you end up having a lot of Muslim conversations on the streets. And we did this thing called the Pop Up podcast, where we had just random conversations with students, and I'd say about a not quite a third, but maybe a fourth of the conversations I had were with Muslim students. And the challenge I found with them is that all of the metaphysical presuppositions. And by that, of course, for the non-nerds in the audience, all of the sort of big how do I view the world morality, meaning, purpose, destiny, origin. We had all those things in common. Yeah. From a sort of a, you know, a bedrock metaphysical level. And so I found myself struggling to know where to go in that conversation without getting into this really difficult. The Bible translated, you know, it's corrupted. What is some advice you would give to someone who is not a scholar in, you know, the various religious worldviews, but finds himself in a conversation where they can't also at the same time leverage some of those. Well, where do you get right or wrong from? Because it'd be like, uh, from God. Yeah. You mean when talking specifically to Muslims? Correct? Yeah. Well, I think Jesus. Surprise, surprise. Jesus is a very good place to start. I mean, and I mean that by because Muslims will I mean, not typically they they do have a high view of Jesus. You know, they respect Jesus as the second last prophet before Muhammad. So it's you just want to hone in on his who he is. Um, and what he did and kind of slowly test the ground of like, with how people react. Um, and that will kind of this way you can avoid, well, at least at the beginning stage, you can avoid getting into all the discussions about the corruptions of Scripture and that sort of thing. You just, you know, appeal, as it were, or you work from people's respect, uh, for Jesus and you share stories. And then I would I would also very quickly I mean with Muslims anyways, I would, I would try and quickly move towards reading the scriptures together, reading a gospel together. Again, people, they don't think scriptures, you know, Scripture is a weird thing. You know, they they respect the Quran Koran, and they know that we respect the Bible and they themselves in some way or another, respect the Bible. And so I think we shouldn't be too afraid. I think you can move much more quickly towards engaging people with the with the text of the Bible than with actually a Westerner, I think. Right. You know, talking about religious texts and, and and reading religious texts. It's just a normal, you know, that's, you know, that's what you do in life. So whereas for a Westerner, it's like, oh, well, the Bible, I've never touched a Bible, I've never seen a Bible, you know, why should I read this Bible? Blah blah blah. Right, right. Um, so I would, you know, we can be fairly confident. Of course, the questions will come up at some point. You know, your scriptures are corrupt. I think your scriptures are corrupted. Or again, we don't believe in Jesus as God. He's just a prophet. Fair. Fair enough. You've got to tackle these questions at some point. But for a start, you just, you know, you share the stories about Jesus and how people react. You know, the story of the prodigal son or Jesus, you know, Jesus death on the cross and that sort of thing, or Jesus healing blind people or what have you. And these are good, like, good ways just to get the conversation going. You don't need to beat around the bush about Jesus. They're just like, go straight to the point. That is a weird advantage. I think what maybe makes the young Muslim maybe even more of a challenge, at least in the experiences I've had, is that while on one level they're obviously very committed to their faith, often in the lead up to that revealing itself, they'll say all of these things that feel very secular humanists. Yeah, that's what's so weird. Like, they'll act very liberal about the idea of truth, and everyone kind of gets to decide for themselves. And then they'll kind of throw in the, well, I'm a muslim. Dot dot dot. Yeah. And what's weird is it's almost like it isn't all that different than the cultural Christian and that they have their sort of privatized faith. Yep. And they're cool without really fleshing out the mutual exclusivity of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what's so strange because. Because while they definitely have, I would say more of a just a generic respect. So it almost makes it uniquely hard because you can't you can't dig into the. Well, where does truth come from? What is the source of morality? Are you really content believing that you're just a highly evolved animal that's going to just grow old and die? They don't have any of that existential dread because they have answers to all those questions. Yeah, but they also don't have such a conviction of their beliefs that they're willing to not not in a literal sense, fight you on that. Yeah. So it's like it's so difficult. That's that's a very good point, Ben. I think actually by by you, because many, many Muslims especially, I guess the, the type of people you will meet in, um, Minneapolis or I mean, in the West in general, or again, even in the Middle East, lots of Muslims will live with that cognitive dissonance of well, as a muslim, I'm supposed to believe x, y, z. Uh, you know, there is one God and and you know, the Quran is the truth and that sort of thing. I'm supposed to believe that, and I kind of believe that. But also I'm surrounded by all these people and it makes me, well, not just I'm surrounded by all these people, but I kind of don't believe that, you know, and lots of people. Just for the record, lots of Muslims, I mean, Ex-Muslims, I've met one of the common denominators that I found among them, why they've left Islam is just for them to, um, is the doctrine of hell. Lots of people have told me, lots of individuals have told me. Well, you know, one of the main reasons why I left Islam is because I didn't want to believe that all my friends who aren't Muslims are going to go to hell now. So I think lots of Muslims live in that tension between, okay, here is what the what the book says or what you know, the, the religion says. But here's really what kind of my my discomfort with all of that. Now, having the reason why I'm saying this is by part of you evangelizing a muslim may actually be to help him navigate or navigate out of that confusion or out of that tension, because, again, most people, they will just kind of live with it. They don't, you know, take the time or they don't go through the pain of facing those hard questions. I mean, lots of Muslims will not want to face those questions because just I mean, it's difficult and it's hard and it can be very painful. So you'll do a muslim a favor by helping him or her working through these questions. And then obviously you don't do that to kind of lead them back to the truth of Islam, as it were. But you want to lead them to the truth, truth of Christ. Um, but they will. I think you can be a good friend. And it's one part of the work of evangelism among Muslims, of helping them figure out that that tension. Yeah, yeah, it's it's interesting because like you said, you almost on some levels have to get them to take seriously their own Muslim faith before they can have a good faith conversation about whether it holds up in light of Jesus. Yeah. Um, and when you have this kind of, I don't know, it's well, it's really secularization because true, secularization is just the privatization of your religious beliefs. Yeah. And so that's kind of what's happening here. And I would say to go back to what you were saying earlier, there's such a high value placed on family, which of course is good, and I would say more in the Western context, you're going to deal more with cultural and familial ostracization than like persecution. Yeah. That out of that commitment to the family there, you know, it's kind of probably similar to nominal Jews, right? They practice certain things and they because it's so integrated into their family and it matters so much to them. And I think that that concern is genuine. They want to honor their their family. They don't want to lose that. And again, speaking of things they see in the West and don't want to emulate. Yeah, the fragmentation and isolation of the Western family is nothing to idealize by any stretch of the imagination, but it definitely does make it a challenge, and I'm sure it's something you guys will face. Different shade of it for sure in Saudi itself. But some of that I'm sure you'll face. Yeah, definitely. It's it's it's you've gotta again by by helping people navigate that that very tension. You you do run I mean if you will you do run the risk of kind of help like helping them getting back into some orthodox form of Islam. You've kind of you, if you will. You're running that risk. So you've got I mean it needs to be and of course, I mean, I do want people, Muslims who make a commitment to Christ. I want them to make a well, it implies a commitment against Islam. It is that this is what is implied there. So there is no like, nothing to be feared there. But at the same time, we don't. It's just part of the process of helping these guys, figuring out, you know, the truth and you know that Jesus Christ is the truth. They've got a they've got to figure out their stance towards Islam, which is, again, a very ambivalent one for most people. Right. Yeah. And it's no different than the spirit that captures the majority of Western young people, which is that their real God is fitting in and being accepted, and they've sort of traded a commitment to the actual truth for a notion that would sort of maintain their social standing. Yeah. And really also guard their moral freedom. Yeah, right. Because I'd imagine, you know, the version of the Saudi guy that you see at the festival that you're going to interact with looks very different at Mom and dad's house. Yeah. Of course. On Thursday. Right. And that's. No, that's no different. I would say, like you said before, I think the we become we've become more brazen. The young Westerners become more brazen and that they just don't care to hide it anymore. Yeah. That's right. Now the parents have to conform to the morality of the kid or face willful isolation. Right. Like speaking of the whole gender thing, it's like, accept my pronouns or you will not see me around anymore. Yeah, and that's kind of where these things head. So anyway, dude, this could go on forever. I love this conversation. Um, but I respectful of your time and other things, so thanks for doing this. Let's do this more frequently so that we can. Sounds good. We can go full Joe Rogan and go three and a half hours. I do wonder what he says though about like as we were talking, I was thinking, I wonder if there's a certain point when the conversation gets even more natural and good. I don't know what that is, you know what I mean? But there's got to be a certain point where you get so far past your script. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That you're just literally talking, which of course comes with higher risk but potentially higher reward too. Yeah, exactly. We'll have to try it one day. Yep. Yeah. And then maybe by, like by the end of your three and a half hour podcast, you'll have one person watching. You know the rest. Right, right. Well, it's working for him, but but man, it's certainly a quantity game. Right. You go through and you're like MMA, MMA, MMA, comedy guy, comedy. Oh finally. That's interesting. That's got Elon Musk on again for the ninth time. So all right dude appreciate you man I'm excited to hear when you come back from Saudi. We should talk some more. I want to hear how it goes. Sure. But but I love this, uh, mission that we get to do together. But that's it. Thanks, dude. Appreciate it. Thank you. Ben. All right. Thanks.

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