Is Modern Worship Broken? | Rita Springer

All right. Well, we are going. Rita Springer, we've had we've had a rock and roll start to this, but we made it.

We're here. Thank you for being on the Provoke and Inspire podcast.

You're welcome. I love your background. It's uh it's eclectic room. So,

yeah, it's the probably the quietest room in the house when a lot's going on. So, all right. Fair enough. All right. Well,

you know, I had all these kind of questions I wanted to dive into and eventually I would love to hear uh for

those in our audience who maybe are unfamiliar, your story, the how what drew you into the whole worship world,

what you're doing with that now. Um, but something that I' I felt led to talk about here at the beginning as it

relates to worship is so so I'm in Minneapolis and uh about So yesterday

obviously at around 8:30 a.m. there was the horrific school shooting. Yeah. And it was about one and a half miles

from where I dropped off my kids 30 minutes before it happened. Wow. And I have a four-year-old, a

seven-year-old, and a nine-year-old. And you know, school shootings are horrible under every circumstance, but this one,

it hit hard for me personally. And you know, the idea that these kids were

praying in church, the all of the it's just un unthinkable. You can't even wrap

your mind around it. And it it would almost feel tonedeaf if not to right away bring it to this part of the conversation and to ask you as someone

who's devoted your life to worship. As as I was thinking about this story, I just felt like how do you worship at a

moment like that? And how do you process grief? And and as followers of Jesus are looking at this, how have you handled

moments like this in your life as it relates to worship? And what what what role does worship play in a moment like

this when I think so many people are asking like how do I even move forward? Where is God

in all of this? You know it's always interesting to me that question. I understand it. I get

it. I've asked it I think in the course of my life myself several times, right?

But when I when I really truthfully look at what what the question is is asking,

right, I I think it's really more so h how can you not worship?

Yeah. in in moments like this, you know, when I'm I'm I I remember my son who's

almost 21 now. When he was going to school, he took a Bible class in his

Christian school that he had and he didn't really like Bible because his Bible teacher didn't bring it alive, but

he would come home and he would say, "Man, the Bible is the most bru brutal book I've ever read." And I was like,

"Yeah, like that it is. It's a it's a it's a brutal book of of deep grief and

suffering and sorrow and war and anguish and um battles and losses and winds and

and then Jesus emerges in the in the New Testament to redeem us and give us the

hope, you know, and because he's he's constantly saying this world's going to

just lay it on thick. Yeah. And if you don't have me, you're not

going to make it. And so when we think about why would God allow I think the bigger question is why

would God allow some psychopath to come into a church

school where kids are praying and open fire or shoot through the windows or whatever they did. And it's like, well,

think about how the enemy strateg strategically tries to think of what's

the worst thing I could possibly do that would make people run screaming from even wanting relationship with God.

Let's let's go after kids and and let's go after kids in their most vulnerable

state. Like the Texas floods. Yeah. It's like you you you want to talk

about why would God allow that? Like, okay, God, you're in control of the

weather. Why don't you have the rain happen at 10:00 in the morning so people

can see what they're doing? And there's a better opportunity to save 27 little

girls who are going to drown in a river. I I I think we could get hung up on all

of these things. I think the greater the greater stance is, "Oh, God, you are God

and I'm not. And I don't understand why you allow what you allow. And I don't understand why you allow evil to run

raping and pillaging the the earth. But what I do know is that that in the midst

of the greatest sorrow, you are the greatest hope and and you will have your day in

court." Like you will you will stand up. And the Isaiah talks about about the the

time when when God stands up from his throne and he rolls back his sleeves.

You know what I'm saying? It's like that's the kind of scripture I'm like, "Bring it on, bro."

You know, and I I I do think that we need to put more of our attention on the

God in the midst of grief and and um and suffering. And right now, God is so

tangible. He's not so far away. He's actually so present because the Bible

says that it's it's in grief and suffering that he is near to the brokenhearted. So, he's he's actually

nearer to to parents that maybe don't really even believe in Jesus

and and they've just lost a kid or they're in the middle of trying to get their kids through this horrible trauma.

And um you know, and I I just think God is he's he's closer than we realize and

we need to be asking the the questions that really matter. Yeah. You not the ones that don't. Where

do we find God in this? Right in the middle. Yeah, he's right in the middle of it. Yeah. I I Yeah, my sentiments are

exactly the same. And and I feel like our world has a very funny reaction to God. I feel like when things are good,

they accuse Christianity or Christians of escapism that we're not paying attention to the here and now. Or when

things are horrible, then God is on trial. And where were you in this situation? And for me,

our world view, our intimacy with Jesus gives us the only resources to actually

confront something like this with any hope at all. Right? I was reading, I forget where it was. I think it was in

First Peter where it talks about, you know, cast your cares on me because I care for you. And I'm like thinking,

the God of the universe cares about me. He wants me to bring the things I have

to him. And I I can't imagine how anyone without a belief in relationship with

God interprets a situation like what just happened. I totally agree with you.

Like it it may be incomprehensible, but to be able to face a reality like that in a world that does not care, where

there is no justice, in fact, where we can't even really define what justice is,

that's probably the far greater question that should be asked at a time like this. Yeah. Yeah. I just I I I I think if we

miss and honestly I think this is a really

kind of a harsh statement, but I think in in things like this, it isn't um it

isn't the loss that'll miss it. It's the church that'll miss it. Because I think

the people that really are unbelievers in times like this, they're only spouting off at God from some human

being's replication of him. Right. Right. You know, they're they're not saying

that because they've actually most of them have had an encounter with the real God. Because you if you've had an

encounter with the real thing, you're not going back, right? Like there's a difference between Diet

Coke and Diet Pepsi. You know what I'm saying? There's a massive difference when you've had the real thing. You're

like you you you're not going back. And so people that that question God have never

give into given into the real thing. They've they've been um they've been

lulled by somebody's interpretation of him and then got really super disappointed. Uh, I I find that the

church, the the people that know better are usually the people that

question the the worst, that that have the the the hardest questions because

God's unsatisfying to them and they know all the right things, but

there's not a satisfaction or an insatiable hunger for the presence of God. I kind of think that a lot of us

that struggle in these areas have lost our fear of the Lord and our reverence and our awe.

And and I think that's why we we have way more questions about God because we've lost our awe of him,

right? you know, I mean, this is an easier way to explain that, but

you know, if I'm I if if if I'm at a place and the king of England

walks in, just based on tradition that I've grown up in the atmosphere, you're

going to bow your head down because the king of England's in the room. Whether you're English or you're Spanish or

whatever, that's the freaking king of England. Yeah. And you don't go up to the king of

England and say, "Yo, hey, what's going on?" That's just not what you do. There's a reverence and an awe for that

because there there's a an office that that that king holds that has a a a a

weight to it. And I think that we've lost that before the Lord. We've gotten real familiar with why isn't he doing

something for me? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and I I I do think that a lot of the questioning that we

have around why is God allowing this? Why is God doing this? We've just lost

we've we've lost our our relatable, you know, insatiable hunger for the Lord.

Yeah. And we've we've uh allowed room to ask the questions that we we know better how

to answer. Now, if someone doesn't know the Lord and they don't know God's that kind or that good and they they only

understand him from the perspective of human beings. Yeah. Um I can understand why they're asking

those questions. Yeah. Yeah. and maybe a response, a reflexive response or a

posture towards a situation like this where you're questioning or wondering,

you know, I mean, first of all, I think God is very merciful with our doubts, especially in unspeakable moments like

this, right? I love I love how Jesus treats Thomas where he doesn't despise him for asking to feel the the wounds.

He says, "Go ahead. Let I'm right here." So, so I know that God cares and and

wants us to come fully honest before him and vulnerable before him. But you know, your whole life has been devoted to

worship. And I I do think that worship and your view of God are inextric inextricably linked. Who you think God

to be is going to impact how you respond to him in the good, hard, and everything in

between. And would you say that part of a reaction to a situation like this that is not God-honoring is because

we have, like you said, we've changed God into this cosmic vending machine, this therapeutic

agent that if you know you're, hey, you are supposed to hold up your end of the bargain. I I come here, I do my I check

my boxes. What? This isn't part of the deal. Being confused, being broken,

evil, hardships, that wasn't part of the deal. Would you say that that so much of this and and I'm sure you wrestle with

this all the time is we got to get our view of God right if we're going to respond to him correctly.

Yeah, I I do think that I mean I'm I'm

in my 50s and so, you know, I'm I'm catching myself in these conversations

with younger kids. Again, my my my child's almost 21 years old and man,

it's so interesting to talk to him about God and and there's parts of him that are are are very deep and introspective

and then it's like there are things he said he says and I'm like what? Like

where did you get that that God would be like that? And it's just social media. It's all the this stuff around him. when

when we talk about worship, when I talk about worship,

um and spending my whole life in worship, you know, people will think, "Oh, uh she she yeah, she sings and she

writes songs." It's like, no. To me, when I say I've spent my my entire life

in worship, it's I've been spent my entire life in relationship with God and

and it has been defined as understanding the worth of the Lord. Um, so when I was

writing songs, it was because I was gleaning and trying to search for the worth of God. When I was looking for

melodies, I was looking for melodies where other people could find the worth of God. And so I just look at worship

different because worship's a commodity. It's a, you know, I remember when worship started selling in Christian

bookstores on the shelves of Christian bookstores. And I was like, what? Like this is crazy. Because worship to me was

these beautiful, relatable experiences we were having creatively in music where

God was just walking in on a melody line and just healing people of cancer.

And and that just never got lost on me. And and that is a different sound now to

this generation. if I were to tell this generation that or mentor,

you know, I'm mentoring Monday and Tuesdays these younger um worship leaders and and a lot of them come from

a very technical place of worship. And when I I'm like, "Yeah, but where's your

journey with the Lord? What is God doing in your life? Where do you find your melody lines? What's going on in your

life that you give the Lord those?" And sometimes those questions are like, "Oh, I I never thought about it that way. I

just I I just thought maybe you would help me be a better singer

and and I don't I don't um slight them for that because that's the manuscript

that we're selling them, you know, and that's what what Instagram is doing to worship leaders. It's like

this is the the the cool song to to to be. This is the, you know, this is the

way to do it. And and it's a commodity train. And I'm not saying that that's a

wrong thing or royalties are wrong, any of that stuff is wrong. I'm just saying it's completely out of balance when

you're trying to actually raise up a worship leader who's trying to raise up a team to serve the Lord on Sunday so

that they could prepare the atmosphere for the congregation to come in and actually get healed by the Lord.

That's a whole different No, I it's a whole different but I I think it's the heart of what I probably

expected us to talk about and and you know my context is not worship. It's

music and art. Yeah. Um and and speaking and writing. But I I feel from the outside looking in and I I

never want to be the big judge. I am part of the church. We are a part of the church. I I see this as a family thing

to want to challenge and grow and improve, but I have to be honest from the outside looking in the worship thing, there's there's a lot about it

that I'm just very baffled by. And and one of the things you seem to mention was this sort of detached or this

dichotomized idea of like there's the technical, you know, you got to write good songs and it's got to sound good and it's got to it's got to be

proficient and but then it seems to be almost disconnected from the undergirling of

intimacy with Jesus. And again, I'm not trying to challenge individual relationships with with Jesus, but let's

just call it the macro analysis here. How is that even possible? How is it

even possible that we've gotten to a place where that would be a, oh, I didn't really think of that?

I I do think that we're living in a day and an age where um there is so much

watered down um mentality, spiritual relationship has

been watered down. Um intimacy has been watered down. First love has been watered down. Everything's just because

there's no fear of the Lord. And um we're all just trying to pay our bills,

man. We're all just trying to like get the hit, get the melody line. I mean, because that's kind of what it is here

in Nashville. And and you know, I'm I'm like a mother in the industry and I've

never had what some of my peers have. I just I didn't make the big royalty checks. I didn't buy, you know,

million-doll homes with my royalty checks. I didn't, you know, I don't have second home, third home. I I don't have

that. a lot of them do because there's a lot of money in this. So, I think where

there's money and where there's those kind of things, again, it's not that it's wrong, but if you're going to walk

into this in a very with a very young faith, um, young relationship with the

Lord, and all of a sudden you're handed all of these things that you have no idea what to how to to to be responsible

in, you're going to start walking out your worship journey just just reading

the manuscript of of what is supposed to happen and and do the next thing and do

the next thing. Personally, I'm so bored with worship music. I can't even I don't listen to the radio. I don't listen to

Christian music on the radio. When I am even doing like my live sets for

YouTube, which is what I'm filming today and tomorrow, it's like I have to kind of go in and and start listening to

worship songs and try to find something that actually grabs a hold of me because

I'm so bored because it's the same melody line over and over and over. I I

think what's the greater tragedy is that we've stopped allowing the creator to

give us creative expression to actually write what he's wanting to say. Because

when I finished my Fed by Ravens record, that's one thing I just won't do. I'm just like, I don't have a label at this

point, which is kind of the better um season of my life. And so, nobody was

telling me what I could or couldn't do. And so I was like, well, I just think from a completely different, you know,

creative side of my brain. And I I also am always saying, hey God, like what do

you want to do? Like what melody lines do you want? Like is there a melody line up there that you've given nobody that

that you trust me with? Is there like a rhythm that you've given nobody that you could trust me with? I'm asking for

those things and I'm in writing rooms all the time. Nobody else is. And so because I don't think there's a

there's a um you know there's many of us especially

mothers and fathers that are telling these younger kids you know ask the Lord for creative realms. Ask the Lord for

like like melody lines. Like I'm on the frequency train, bro. Like I'm trying to

study frequencies and you know trying to to talk to the Lord about we need to

start writing songs for the church in the in the BPM of the of the of a of the

resting rate of the human heart or the chaos of the human heart because on Sunday mornings we're asking people to

join 130 BPM when they've just lost a child or they're they're in crisis and

they come in on Sunday morning and we're like get out of your grief. We you you got to clap your hands and join us at

1:30 bpm. I'm like I think that's like for the birds. I don't think that we're

and I'm I know I'm probably not saying what's popular to say when have I ever but I just am like how come we're not

asking the Lord what he wants to hear and asking the Lord hey who's in the

audience on Sunday morning? How many what what what's the level of brokenness? Because if you're near to

the brokenhearted, should we be choosing some of our songs to actually minister to the brokenhearted? Like what do you

want to And I just don't see our churches really doing that. I see us trying to just what are the top you know

people that listen to I don't listen to Christian radio. I I just again I find it quite boring. But um

you know whenever I do kind of put a station on um you'll notice that every

30 minutes it plays the same song. Mhm. And that's because whoever is the

publisher of that song um is paid by the radio station who owns the radio station

to to play that song every 30 minutes. And there's money in playing that. And

and um scientifically if if your brain is hearing a repetitive

uh melody line every 30 minutes, your brain is then actually without you even

not knowing it is telling yourself, remember that melody line. Remember that melody line. Remember that melody line.

So that you are gravitating toward a melody line and wanting to wanting to hear that melody line. And that when you

hear that melody line at church, you're like, "Oh my gosh, that's my favorite song." Mhm. No, it's not. You just heard it 50,000

million times when you're streaming that radio station. Yeah. Yeah. I remember in one of my

communication classes in college, they called that the mere exposure hypothesis, which I always thought was funny cuz just felt like a fancy way of

explaining a simple concept. But oh man, there's Yeah. To me, so much of this is about who am I

and what is success, right? Because if I understand myself as a branch and Jesus says the vine,

then success is connecting myself to the vine, right? He he is my source of life.

He is my definition of success. All power, all plans come from him. My job

is the ongoing cultivation of intimacy with Jesus. Period. And it doesn't sound

like that's the identity and success that so many I hate to say it, but

people in the church industry, it doesn't sound like that is their definition of success or identity.

Well, I think there's such a me language right now. And what's what's out of what you just said is me me me.

Because it's it's it's him. Yeah. You know, I may be a measly little

branch, but I don't I'm nothing without the vine. And and you've got a

generation of people that have been schooled and told and then they're under

such anxiety and mental health problems that they they they think that they can

live outside the vine. So they're trying to live outside the vine because they're living on their own juices and their own

Yeah. whatever they're inspired by and and they're running themselves into the

ground. And I actually think it's a brilliant generation. But I do think that

when I'm and I'm not trying to make fun of like anxiety or mental illness. I'm just saying we've used it as such an

excuse, you know, and granted, you know, I I it's so funny recently I um I had I

don't know why I was talking to to my doctor and she's like, "Have you ever taken like a um like a a add test?" And

I was like, "No, I nobody when I was a kid made us take an ADD test." So, I

took this ADD test. It turns out like I I I'm there's like some attention

deficit stuff because I'm like a I'm like a dog, like squirrel, like you know, I've got five million things. And

she was like, "You've never had I was like, "No, back back in the day you just

went out and played or you shot a rabbit or you saddled a horse." Like that's I I

I went out and did creative things that filled my tank.

Yeah. And brought me into an awe and wonder about nature or, you know, um tadpoles

or whatever. And and you know, built houses in the mud for my hot wheel cars

that I borrowed from my brother. Like I I those are some of the fondest memories

that I can remember. the creative construction of massive mud compounds

because I was using my brain when I was anxious or was bored or we we don't do

that anymore. And so I think what you're what you're seeing is you're watching a generation

that the enemies got so inside themselves that they have no idea that

anybody else exists out there except for themselves. And I mean, I this is the

the the argument I have with my son all the time. It's like, you know, it's kind of funny. We laugh about it a lot, but

I'm like, "So, basically, you're you're not doing well in that." Well, but I

it'll be fine. I'll I'll just figure it out. But you've been trying to figure it out for six months and you haven't

figured it out. How's it going for you? Well, not well. So, when are you going to ask for help?

And it's like, uh, I don't know. like I I can do it by myself. And it's this

kind of thing. I'm like I laugh at him all the time and I'm like, well, you know, I I wish you good luck on that

and when you need me, I'm over in the corner ready to help you. The Lord's been here the whole time ready to help

you out, you know. But it's like it it is it's in this culture and it's in the culture of Christian music, too. I think

it's why we we are seeing so many platforms falling Yeah. you know, into sin because people

can't handle being the kings of their own castle. No. No. And and the reality is you are a

branch, right? It's not a choice. So, basically, you're either a branch that's withering or a branch that's thriving

because you're connected to the vine. So, it's the illusion of choice. It's it's what kind of branch are you going

to be? Are you going to try to do it in your own strength? and in so doing be saddled with all of these things

because when you try to do it on your own for the world's def definition of success

it not only is it unsustainable not only does it rob you of life but it's not even fruitful in the end

it doesn't even produce great fruit in fact you know I I really do not like the false dichotomy between excellence and

intimacy with Jesus I don't see them as a false dichotomy but to me it's about success that's

actually success Yes. Right. Because Jesus talks about it. If you try to hold on to your life, you will lose it. You

want to you're if God has given you a passion for art and for worship, the best way to kill it is to make art and

worship God. Make God God and then out of that place of wholeness, pour

yourself into the thing he's made you to make and then you will have both. So, it's just so much of this is about

getting back to those basics of intimacy with Jesus. Yeah. And what's beautiful about even

what you do is that you know you've tapped into using a creative realm to

reach a generation that only really is looking through the lens of what

fascinates them creatively. Mhm. And I I I think that, you know, years

ago, years ago, I would have these conversations with the Lord as a young, like late 20s, early 30s, and I would

hear God say things like, "Oh, just you wait. I'm going to use the creative arts." And I'm like, "What does that mean?" He

goes, "Oh, I'm going to use movies. I'm going to use music, um, mainstream music. I'm going to use um, you know,

theater. I'm going to use ballet. Um, I'm going to win a I'm going to win a harvest with with all kinds of things

like that. And I'm I was like, "You mean you mean the church is going to like rise up and and start Giuliard schools?"

And he's like, "No. Um, the church will probably miss this one." And I was like, "Wait a second."

So, I'd have all these conversations with him like, "What do you mean? What are you talking about? What are you?" And I I just feel like the Lord's like,

"Well, I I the the the greatest bilingual language that we're all

speaking is art." Yeah. Yep. Like if I'm going to go to a movie, most

of us don't go to movies anymore, but if I'm going to go to a movie or a Marvel movie, I'm not going to sit in the

theater with a bunch of Christians. the world is in that theater

and we're all taking in a piece of art that inspires us in some way. Whether

it's, you know, the the the green screen thing or if you're you love

cinematography or you love the storyline or you love heroes or whatever, we're all inspired by that. If we if we go to

to New York and we buy a ticket to Hamilton or to, you know, Michael Jackson or to, you know, one of those

42nd Street, we're sitting in the audience with a bunch of non-Christians enjoying the same beautiful performance

of people and their giftings and their talents and costume design and all kinds of things. And and all of that's owned

by God. The enemy doesn't own anything creative. He just owns the compromise of it.

So when when God wants to use something creative, I mean,

I used to just roll my eyes at faith films because they were so lame. I was just like, why are Christian actors so

horrifying? Just so bad. I'm like, why can't you get

a good actor and pay him good money to to act in this movie? And they're getting better. But I think they're

getting better because I'm I've been watching the Lord and these things that I I've had conversations for for for

over 20 years being like, "Oh, that's what you're talking about. Oh, that's what you're talking about." You know,

painters that paint and they don't necessarily have to like put a cross Yeah.

bottom of their art, you know, and their art selling for, you know,

$20,000. I mean, I I I know an artist here who, you know, was at the end of her end and she tried to be a worship

leader and she was trying to she was failing at everything and she just was trying to find God and she was like,

"God, what do you want me to do?" And the Lord, she said, the Lord just spoke to her one day and said, "I want you to

paint me Snoop Dogg in a cowboy hat." and she paints Snoop Dogg in a cowboy

hat and it goes viral and sets her in a place of being a very well-known artist.

And I'm like, "Yeah, that's the Lord." The church would look at that and be like, "Yes, but is it saved?" "Yes, but

are you doing this the way?" It's like glorifying the Lord and relating with the Lord in a personal journey is one of

the most beautiful things I've ever I've ever encountered. It doesn't always have to be out loud. It's a it's a it's a

holy encounter with everything that you do. But I think God wants to create a harvest. And I don't know that the

church is watching the arts. they're too busy keeping their kids from listening to certain music, which I understand all

that, or or um you know, wanting to be actors or dancers or whatever because

they don't want them gosh, if they if they're going to be if they're a kid and they want to be a designer, well, we

can't let them be a designer because we don't want them to be homosexuals. And if we or or into photography, things

like that. It's like if the Lord's moving on a young person's heart to be a in a punk band or or a rock band,

whatever. It's like, man, my my thing is more like, okay, what is the Lord actually saying? And how is the Lord

going to use that to actually reap a harvest in a young generation? Because

the church would not necessarily be doing all those things because

they're they they don't look at the I don't even know if any of this is making sense to you, but Yeah. No, no, you're speaking my

language. This is Yeah. No, I think we missed the first five days of scripture.

This is all creation. Yeah. No, we centered on day six being saved when

we've we've failed to look back at the first five examples that have never

deviated from the plan. Yeah. And so, yeah, I I think a really important aspect of

this conversation, and this is everything I'm passionate about right now, because from what I can understand

as it relates to artists, you tend to have three categories. And and the in my from my estimation, 99.9% of Christians

fall into the first two, which is you have Christian artists and creatives of all kinds, but their primary function is

to create things for the body. Call it worship or other things like that. And that's that's great. That's important.

Then you tend to have the second category which is hey I I just happen to be a follower of Jesus and then I do

this creative thing. Maybe I'm in the film industry or I'm whatever it is but there's no real uh

synergy there. There's no intentionality there. And and again I'm not necessarily judging that either.

What I what I'm passionate about is is could there be this third category? And what I mean by that is, you know, not to

create the false dichotomy and it's not like you got to put the cross or John 3:16 in every piece of art,

but there is a there is a degree of intentionality in saying God has gifted me to

communicate through song or dance or film or whatever it is. And I love Jesus. I love the people God

has called me to reach. How can I communicate truth to them in a way that

they can understand? like Paul before the Athenians in Acts 17, he he doesn't beat them over the head with it. He

learns their language. He recognizes their felt needs and then in their with using the language of their poets and

their philosophers, he communicates the gospel to them in a way that they get it. Do you think part of this is getting

that helping get helping people get to that place in terms of their art? Because I think they feel like, well, if

I I don't want to just put the Bible in everything and if I if I don't want to do that, then I don't see a place for it

at all and I'll just sort of be very in the background with my faith through my content. Is there is there a bold middle

ground? Yeah, I think there's a balance. I think I always talk about the word balance because let me shut this thing off. Um

uh I I I think balance is really really great um to have and um

and I think it it it it's the Lord like I'm always asking the Lord, okay, what's

the balance here? If I um if I have somebody over that's necessarily um that

they they know God, they love God, they're an they're an artist in in whatever field, but they're really

struggling and they're in sin. I'm not going to not have them over and and sit

down with them and talk to them about certain things. Now, I have friends that would be like, "No, I wouldn't invite those kind of people into my house." And

I'm like, "I think Jesus kind of would." Yeah. And so I'll sit down and I'll have conversations with people who are

teetering on the edge or people that want to debate with me about whether this sin is okay with God or this sin is

okay with God. I have no problem doing that. And there but there's a balance in it. It's like you you get to the point

where you're like, "Okay, this is great, but then this is like the the the boundary line that you that you have

with that." I think as it as it relates to

to witnessing putting Jesus in everything that you do, you know, I I

I'm always looking for that that level of balance because sometimes I'm in rooms with people that they they're

their secular mindset and the Lord will say, "Don't say

anything." In fact, I I did a podcast with the gal who um she and her sister

during co her twin sister during CO started baking cookies

and they just started selling their cookies everywhere and within a year they had a

a million-doll cookie empire and were selling their cookies all over the world

and and so she's like, you know, the the I'll go into these massive boardrooms

with like the food network and these are like worldly people that are like piranhas you know in a pool and she's

like there are moments when I'll go into these things and she says the Lord will say don't say a word about me just

listen and she she she was telling me even a story of when when one moment when the

Lord was like I don't want you to say anything about me don't try because she's like a little evangelist like she's always trying to and she said at

the end of the this board meeting, this big board meeting. She said, "One of the ladies that when the when the meeting

ended just from another big company came over and said, "Hey,

I I can I ask you a question?" She said, "Yeah." And she's like, "Hey, I I think

you you're a Christian, right? You you have faith." And she's like, "Yeah, I do." And she goes, "Can I ask you a

couple questions about the Bible?" And they just started this conversation.

And she was so kind of um unraveled by that. But she because she's like, I I

learned in that moment that Jesus knows the room better than I do. And he knows

what's what what's going to gravitate where he's at. All he needs me to just obey him in the room I'm in.

Yeah. And so I think that's where the balance is, right? It's like, you know, I I've

I've had conversations with people on airplanes and they'll say, "How come you

seem so lighthearted?" Like, "What's your secret?"

And and sometimes the Lord will be like, "Tell them this." And it has nothing to

do with like, "Well, it's Jesus Christ." Um, you know, I I I I may say something

like, "I think I've just found the source of peace." And then I'll create the conversation. Yeah. I'd rather be in

peace than chaos. And so I strive really hard for peace. You know, it's like, oh, well, how do you find peace? Well, for

me, it's just reading the Bible and believing in Christ, you know, things like that. It's like, we don't always

have to be hard going after the gospel. I grew up in that and it was a deterrent

for me with with how I was raised. And so, I'm always looking for balance. But

I do think it's it's the the the vessel has to be

filled in order to be poured out at any moment God wants you out. Yeah. Yeah. That's big. I think if it's

done out of anything but that filling, then it becomes a religious duty and a self-righteous act. You know, I

think my struggle is, you know, if yesterday morning was any reminder for me, the world is desperate

and it's broken and time is short and life is fleeting. And I do know that the proclivity of my

heart is is to not want to be foolish, is to not want to take a risk, is to not want to risk my reputation or my

standing socially. And so knowing that the default setting in my heart is away from boldly sharing,

I'm going to always find a way to rationalize and justify not doing it. I I think sensitivity to the Holy Spirit

is massive. And I think one thing that you just demonstrated through that plain story was the ability to have a spiritual

conversation that led to the gospel. Yes. Yes. It's it's to me that wasn't so much about if it was how. In your

genuine authentic interactions with secular people, you recognize, hey, if I just come out with the four spiritual

laws, they're going to be like, "Yeah, what what?" But no, you said you they

said, "Man, what's different about you?" Like it says in 1 Peter 3:15, be prepared to defend the hope that is in you. Someone recognized the

hope in you and then you were able to say, "Yeah, you know what? Like I think that there's a real source of peace out there." Oh,

really? What is it? Well, for me it's X, Y, and Z. And so you kind of take them down this journey. I don't know. I guess

for me, and it's a long rambling way of saying, I think that we've create false dichotoies. We say, well, I don't want

to be the Bible bashing shove it down your throat artist, so I won't say anything at all. And to me, I would say

no. Love people, learn people, have patience, be filled with the Holy

Spirit. doesn't have to be rammed down their throat, but also recognize the the schemes of the enemy to keep you quiet

and don't waste the platform God has given you. There's got to be I think there is a a beautiful balance, I'd say,

tension there. Yes. Where it's going to be risky. It's going to require courage, but it also can be

excellent, patient, and filled with the Holy Spirit. And and that would be my hope. Yeah. Yeah. I just I think that's why I

love the word balance because when I use it, I'm like, "Okay, that's that's just

all I need is the is the is the balance to bring me right back to center and right where the Lord wants me to be to

be at." Yeah. Sometimes it's silence and sometimes it's speaking. Yeah. Yep. Well, Rita, I know you have a

cut off here and uh today's been a a bit of a rock and roll intense day. You got other things to get to. Um, I got to

about two and a half of my 23 questions I wanted to talk to you. So, you can have a you can give me a uh one

more. Give me one more that you you really want to know. I've heard Okay, I'll I'll hit you with

this one and you can give me a short answer for the sake of your time. One thing I've personally wrestled with as a

as someone who writes songs and and creates content is I feel like I've

lived a pretty great life and I I feel like there's this angst or there's this

perception in art that to make good art, you got to be all it's got to be hard and mopey and life's you got to be able

to write from all of these dark places. There's an artist I really like. is a non-Christian MGK and he talks about he

has a line in a song about my label, you know, hates that I'm I'm like this. I have to go through bleeped to keep

writing and he and I I'm like I sometimes feel limited by that. So, as someone who has

written so many songs, speak into that idea, is there truth to that or or is

there a different place we can be writing from? Is there a different place we should be writing from?

Yeah, I don't think so. I think that that, you know, artists are are

Yeah, I guess we're more melancholic. um uh you know, you I've talked to so

many pastors who are so um they're just they don't know how to connect with their worship leaders because the

worship leaders are are like artsy or have that artist mentality and and

there's always that kind of like they're never on time or h they're

always depressed or h they're always this and it's art artists are scary for

for pastors, you know, and um and writers

um I I don't I don't think that that's true at all. I think that we think those

things based on the fact that some of our best work comes out of our suffering or some of our our best lyrics are when

we're at a place where we have to have the Lord. I mean, to be really honest, some of the best songs that I've ever

written are when I'm in dire straits. Yeah. because I'm I'm I'm in dark places

searching for the light and I'm I'm I'm vigilantly searching for the light, you

know, to come out. And so I do think that that is a witness to people and that's a beacon of light

to people. And but I don't think that you have to be going through something. I think a great artist is an interpreter

to to life around them. Sure. And and so I should be able to

um be leaning in and and feel what my brother feels when my brother's hurting

enough to even write a song from that perspective of that pain and that hurt and that wound.

And so I don't think you, you know, you have to be, you know, in the breakup to

write the breakup song. I think you can always adapt um what it would feel like to lose

something to to to be able to journey into that melody line and do it now. Is

it is is experience on a subject better? I mean, I I I again, I have this kind of

little war with my my songwriting son because he's in music school now, and it's just like write authentically

what you know is authentic to you. Yeah. But if all you're doing is copying

other people's emotions and you're not even engaging with their emotions or,

you know, I may not know what it's like to be wounded in this manner, but I can

actually write a song about um somebody's wounding and wondering what it would be like to be wounded in that

manner. Like that's that's like I'm like I'm that kind of a a good artist. I can do it because

creatively in my head I'm image I'm I'm image bound and so I'm like my life is a

movie from the time I get up in the morning till the time I go to bed at night. When I see imagery I'm like oh

let me put myself in that acting role and I could kind of do it but there are some people that can't do that. Like

they're just the the big concern is AI. That's a whole another Yeah, we could

have gone there too. And that's like that's scary for me because I'll use um

uh Sumo to to to make a demo with my lyrics and my melody lines because I

don't have a producer around me to to get it done and turn it in. Um, but I am

not about having AI be the thing that writes your stuff and writes your loop

or I'm like that is that to me that is the most dangerous thing where you are

asking an artificial thing to actually give you something that's artificial

that's been recycled in a system and in a computer system. And that is going to

dumb a generation down. And you will see in the next 20 years creativity now

technology rise and that the creativity and technology may be going up but the

dumbing down of the human brain because they're just letting h uh technology take over for them and that is one of

the worst things I think that can happen to an artist because an our artistry

is built inside of our emotions. Yeah. and and God gave us these

emotions. So, I think that's what I I I'm I'm

concerned about that that the most. But as a writer, I there is nothing that uh

I no longer sit around and wrestle with. Oh, what if I can't write a good melody

line? I just don't even think about that. I'm like, I literally am joined at

the hip with the creator of the universe. If we're supposed to get a melo melody line for this, all I have to

do is ask him. He will not revoke me. He will not rebuke me. And I have just been

in in absolute fascination in this season of my life where I'm

like, what was I doing for 10 to 15 years before this? Why didn't I think I

had access to the Lord like this? And I'm talking movie films. It's like

I'll get a sink right and I'll just go straight to the Lord and I'm like, "Hey God, I'm writing for Grey's Anatomy this

week. I need you to help me because I want an idea." And the Lord will be

like, "Let's write this." And it's like, "Oh, great. That's so great." And I So I

don't walk around thinking, "Oh, I'm limited here and I'm limited there and I'm limited here at all."

No. No. That's beautiful. And I do I do feel like I heard you say elsewhere, it's like we need to create out of

freedom. And God created this beautiful universe and everything in it, not out

of brokenness, but out of beauty and and out of freedom and and so we have, like you said, direct access to that. Well,

very inspired by you. I'm very grateful that you were willing to take the time to do this. I'd love to do this again

sometime because there's so many different things we could talk about, but you know, I'm praying and I know our audience will will join me in praying

that God continues to bless you and your writing. so true. And your intimacy with Jesus. And thank you for your honesty. I know it's

refreshing to hear someone just say it how it is. And we need that. Um because

look, we all we all got things we got to deal with and the church needs to be able to look at itself. I need to be

able to look at myself. And I appreciate you and the as as a you know, part of this body calling us to to be more like

Jesus. Thank you for doing that. Yeah. You're so welcome. Thanks for asking. Thanks for watching Provoke and Inspire. If you enjoyed this content, could you

do me a favor and hit that like button? Leave us a comment because this ultimately is a conversation. Hit that

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Stay involved. Also, provokeinsinspireodcast.com for everything else. That's it. Peace.