ICE in Minneapolis — Why People Say Christians Don’t Care

You're listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. What's up everyone? Welcome to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. Learning how to follow Jesus in a post-Christian world. My name is Ben Pearce. I am joined today by David Pearce, my dad, and Luke Greenwood, the other regular Chad Johnson's. Normally part of this he forms the quad, but he is on the road right now, as I often say, but I think it's worth mentioning always. This podcast is part of a missions organization, and we reach and disciple people who will not walk into a church. And we do that by raising up young missional leaders who are passionate about reaching their generation. And we're active in, what, two hundred and sixty four cities around the world. What is it, Luke? Something like that. Yeah, spread all around two hundred and seventy, two hundred and seventy. It's spread all around Eurasia, Europe, South America, North America, Middle East. It's amazing. Like there's so many cool things happening all around. It's a really awesome and exciting mission and this podcast just amplifies that. We started this mission the year before I was born. That's great, nineteen eighty three. It was for you, Luke. That's when Luke was like a little floating nad in a petri dish. Weird. Okay, so nineteen eighty three, this mission started. If you go to Steiger. Org, you can see our fancy new website. Steiger. We have amazing people in this mission, in design, in web, in graphics and video. And they have combined their strengths like Captain Planet to make an epic website. So go check that out today. Reference. Uh, the what's going to happen today is we're going to be talking, uh, we're going to continue the conversation that we started last week about the situation in Minneapolis with Ice and immigration, the tension, the riots, all of the unrest. If you did not check out that conversation, I'd recommend you pause and go back because these really will work together. But the fundamental question that I want to answer today is why do people think Christians don't care? This is not a new accusation, but I want to play a video here in a second that is incredibly visceral and hard to watch. It's of a protester, a group of protesters who storm into a church in Saint Paul, the sort of conjoining city here. It's Minneapolis Saint Paul, right next to each other, and make that basic accusation in a very inflammatory way. So I'm going to play that video for us, Ben. Like this. Actually, some of our Steiger team attend this church, right? It's the same church. Yeah. That's right. Yeah, that's what I heard. It's so. Yeah. Because when they started saying that that happened, I was like, what? No, really. And then all of a sudden you start to see all the viral videos and you're like, wow, that's very, very intense. So it's a real place, real people. And it really did happen. It's going to play that. And we're just gonna address the broader growing perception in culture that Christians are indifferent, that they're disengaged or selectively outraged. And why does the world so often feel as though we don't care? And so we're going to look at that because I think it's crucial. I don't think it's something that we can just dismiss. We're certainly going to be talking about maybe some of the counterarguments to that, that I think are worth bringing up, but then ending with what I believe is at least what Jesus's heart would be in this situation. And David and Luke will also bring their perspectives into the mix. So yeah, looking forward to that conversation. Then we're going to end. This is new. So if you have been part of this for a long time, bear with me. I know change is hard, but we're going to end with David's random story. We're going to end every episode that way. If you don't know what that is, it's a short, delightful tale from the life and mind of David Pierce. It is often random, as the title would suggest. Will it connect? Sometimes. Does it have to? No. This is postmodernism, after all, and he'll wrap the whole thing up in a nice bow with a tale from his life at the end of the episode. So you're going to want to stick around all the way to the end, because many people call it the best part of the entire show. No exaggeration. A lot of people say that, and, uh, certainly it produces a healthy creative tension that you're going to both love, revel in, and be inspired by. Right, David? I don't know, we'll see. I mean, I liked your explanation. It made me feel ready to go. It's going to be hard for me to wait till the end after that. Yeah, well, you're going to have to. You're going to have to. The best things are worth waiting for. Okay. So I'm going to play this video again for context. We're here in Minneapolis I am so is David. He's right through that wall right there. Luke is in Poland. We are in international podcast and mission. But this particular situation in Minneapolis is very, very tense. Just to give you the thirty second recap, in case I don't know how you would have missed this, but in case you have. So federal agents have been sent en masse to Minneapolis in the last, what, month now? Maybe three weeks, to deal with what the administration, the current political administration would see as a breach of the border. We have in their minds a lot of illegal immigrants in cities all over the US, and our current president has decided this is the way he's going to try to extract and deal with that. Increasingly, there has been, what I would argue is virtually undeniable example after example of really gross overreaches of power and abuses. There's widespread fear, there's distrust. It's really created a tension in the city, I don't think felt since the days of George Floyd here. And it's really divided. And even Christians, certain Christians saying, no, it's all not true. They're just here to remove violent criminals. Other Christians saying, what are you talking about? I mean, there are every day there's more and more stories of people being indiscriminately picked up, you know, and as Chad said last week, even if they're let go, it's this very harrowing experience of being treated like an illegal person. And, you know, it's a very militaristic, aggressive approach by and large. And there is lies on both sides, exaggerations on both sides. The truth is rarely as clear and clean as either. Polarity wants to make it out to be, but it is undeniable that it is a real hard, tough situation. And I don't think you can be a follower of Jesus and just be like, eh, I think it's all just lies or I don't care. I think this grieves the heart of God, and it does lead into an amplified the perception that Christians don't care when we just turn this into a detached political situation. When I personally know people who fit the description of those that Ice are pursuing, not from a legal perspective or criminal perspective, but literally a profiling perspective, who are afraid, whose lives have been affected by, if nothing else, the fear that the approach has created in the culture and in the climate of our city. So I'm going to play this video of these protesters storming a church in Saint Paul. I just want you to listen to it. It's pretty intense. And then we'll kind of answer the key question why do people think Christians don't care? So so you can see the protesters here are have gathered over here. Um, there in the middle of the church. In the beginning of the church service, the pastor was speaking, and, um, I stood up and said her piece. And then the protesters surrounded her. But this is a clandestine mission. I think they found out one of according to them, this is according to, um, Operation Pull Up that one of the pastors here is, uh, a member of us. And so here we are. Where are you? Where are you? Where are you? Where are your people? Why are you not at Whipple every day? Fighting for the humanity, standing for our people. Where are you? You drink your coffee, you got your jewelry, you have your nice clothes. But what do you do? What do you do to stand for your Somali and Latino communities? Yes. It's for. All these comfortable white people who are living lavish, comfortable lives while children are dragged into concentration camps. You're living real life nice lives with your lattes, doing absolutely nothing for your Latino and Somali brothers and sisters. You you come here to a man wearing a suit is a preacher. Did Jesus wear a suit? Did Jesus profit off the words? No. Jesus would die within. Do not touch me. Touch me again and see what happens. Hey! You can't. You are a fake Christian. Why are you not standing with your Somali and Latino communities? Why do I not see you out at Whipple every day protesting this attack on humanity? Where are you? You're sinners. You're pretending to be Christians. But we know you live an easy life, don't you? So there you have it. Uh, rough. That's rough. I hadn't seen it before. That is pretty well. How does it hit you? Uh, I was just thinking all the time. What would I do if I was, you know, in the church, and there's not much you can do because obviously, you know, very angry and vocal. And maybe the best thing is to, at that point in time, let them vent and then talk when things calm down. But that was I was just trying to think about that, how to react to that. That's pretty intense. Well, there's, uh, there's certain churches in the US that they would not dare try that in. They definitely picked an easy target because there's a lot of churches. I mean, not that that would have been, would have been way worse. It's actually kind of amazing that there was so much restraint shown by those parishioners. They didn't seem to really react. They didn't seem to yell. I mean, they did the right thing in that sense, as you said. But man, there are a lot of people where that could have escalated really, really bad, right? You start to see later, like he's like filming kids. He's like, you bring your kids to this like it's out of order. It is. And there'd be dads and I wouldn't blame him. Who'd be like, nah, this is not happening. Yeah. You know. So anyway, so what do you think, David? Yeah, I think it obviously shows how serious the whole situation is. I mean, I don't think no matter how strongly you feel about something, you have a right to go into a church and disrupt the church service. I don't think that's protected speech from what I understand. And again, you know, they're saying, where are you? You know. And why aren't you out doing this and that? But a lot of those guys that are protesting are a lot of what they do is virtual signaling. They're not really doing anything either. So it's kind of hypocritical. Not many of them are really making big sacrifices. That one guy that's on the being interviewed, he's just going around getting all kinds of media attention from just screaming at people and screaming at ice. But I don't know what he practically does for the Latino community that he was talking about, you know, or the Somalian community. I'm not really sure if he actually does anything. It's not just screaming at people in a church, you know? And again, I think we need to look at ourselves too. Part of when I see that is okay, if you're in Minneapolis right now and you're part of a local church, what are you doing? I think it does require something from us. If we follow Jesus, we do need to respond like Jesus would, and I don't think he would just act like nothing's happening. I think he would definitely be responding like we talked about in the last podcast. So I think there it does also make me think, you know, what are we doing in Minneapolis to show what Jesus feels about this situation? I think also two things that kind of really bother me about it is, well, number one, as you said, David, we should be doing something and and it's um, I find it really unfair because a lot of the concept of doing something for minority groups or for caring for the community and helping and serving people comes from the Christian church and over throughout history and including now. And so it's kind of a weird thing to pick on for the Minneapolis context, a church on the smaller side and to walk in and to to yell at them like that. It's kind of weird to me, and I can't imagine protesters doing that to general audience on the street. Um, so that bothers me as well that they felt like for some reason, because these are a bunch of Christians, we can treat them that way. Where? Where, you know, you wouldn't. It's unusual to see protesters on the street come up to general audience and yell at them like that, like, why aren't you doing something? It's kind of it's a very odd thing to do, in my opinion. So those things bother me about it. But I agree with you, David, that it's part of our calling and and culture and ethos as followers of Jesus, to be involved in serving the community around us and helping people. Well, let me just also give this context supposedly, and I think it may have been confirmed or not, I don't know. So correct me if I'm wrong, but I think also part of their context was that the pastor was an Ice agent. That was part of their justification, not that it provided any justification. In fact, there are significant laws that they broke. There's a law called the face law. It's like an acronym. And essentially it's you're not allowed to prevent people from getting medical care that was used to prevent anti-abortion protesters from blocking people from going in to get abortions. But it's also extends to religious activities like you can't, as a protester, disrupt or prevent someone from going to their place of worship. So their significant federal laws that have actually been broken. In this case, the big question is how am I being salt and light like what Jesus said in Matthew five thirteen, you are the salt of the earth. The salt has lost its taste. How shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet. You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden, nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand. And it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so they may see your good works. So it's about good works. And then because of that, they'll give glory to the father when they hear our message. Yeah. But again, like I said, it's a disingenuous game to say that because you don't care about the thing I care about in the way that I care about it. That somehow invalidates you as a Christian or a person that is empathetic towards the plight of the world. I can't possibly care about all things at all times, or I would just live pinned to the ground in guilt. I could spend twenty four hours a day in every ounce of blood, sweat, and tears I have and still not solve one percent of the one hundred percent of problems that exist in my city. That's not an excuse, but we can't approach it like that. That's not going to solve anything. If we feel like a certain issue is not being properly responded to by followers of Jesus, then let's talk about it. Let's ask in a positive way what more could I do? Or what am I not doing that I should be doing? I know this is an extreme approach, but a subtle undercurrent of this is a common trick. It reminds me of when the Black Lives Matter thing was a more popular sentiment, and regardless of how the entity of itself end up being exposed and all that, the essence of what it was saying was, of course, true, right? Black lives matter, and there was a certain moment in history where it was okay to emphasize that, where that needed to be emphasized. And as a Christian, of course, we believe that on its statement. And I'm not talking about the organization and all the other things about it, purely the statement and the concept and the emphasis. Right. But then a lot of Christians would snap back with, well, all lives matter, you know, and you'd have that sort of response. And it was a different version of the same issue, which is like, well, if you don't care about all lives, you can't say you only care about this particular thing. And I'm like, these aren't good faith ways of trying to be better at solving problems. And I'm saying unless we kind of parse that out, we're not going to make any progress. I think ultimately, maybe one of the most important questions here is what what can and should be done about any cause or situation that comes in front of us. And the truth is that on all sides of the arguments, um, there is a lack of actual action, right? Because you can have a, you know, a protester who's like, as you were saying, David, a lot of it's virtual signalling and it's like, let's, you know, suddenly I feel part of something and I'm going to fight for something, and I'm the one who's got a voice against this or pro that. Um, and people get behind it out of a, out of kind of there's this motivation, but it's protesting for protest sake. And then, you know, you can see validity in, in criticism towards, um, theoretical Christianity and Christians sitting in churches, um, learning about, you know, caring for the poor and not not doing enough about it. So you could you could throw that accusation all around. And the big the big point there is what actually is being done and what is valid action to to bring change in the world. And I'd say that that's just not happening. So so we need to maybe the most important thing is to get down to what can we actually do or what what what is actually, um, worthwhile time bringing, bringing a difference. And I, I'd say, you know, looking at, for instance, the context there of Minneapolis and different immigrant communities and, uh, the whole, the whole cultural, um, mix that you get in almost any urban center nowadays, the church has historically and does today really engage with that? It's part of kind of the Christian culture to go, you know, how can we help poorer communities or how can we bring how can we help in different cultures and stuff and bring people together? And so those those are the kind of actions that should be emphasized, like, okay, is there some real work being done? Are there lives being changed? Are there communities being changed? And who's doing it? And I think that's what we should be looking at at the end of the day. Yeah. And I think as followers of Jesus, we have been given a worldview that affirms us in a way that is really powerful and unique. And it's this I'm imperfect and that's okay. Right? And that doesn't mean I'm apathetic about the things that need to change in my life. But what's so beautiful about following Jesus is that I can both accept that I'm a hypocrite, and always will be, that I have value in my identity in Christ, and then, motivated by that value, strive to grow. Strive to change. Strive to deal with the selfishness in my heart and the coldness of my heart because in the absence of that affirmation, it becomes this really like hopeless situation. And I can understand why you'd be defensive if the value you felt like you had was predicated on the perception of your virtue from the outside, then I have to maintain that perception that I'm perfect, that I have all the right ideas, that I. That I'm not what they say I am. I'm not saying this as an apathetic rhetorical trick at all. It's fine to say, yeah, I'm a hypocrite. It's okay to say, yeah, I'm not all that I should be. I'm actually able to do that. Unlike other people, I'm able to say I'm not perfect, nor will I ever be perfect. And from that place of grace I didn't deserve, I can now look at even what this nutbar is saying and go, okay, does he have a point? Because really, his approach does not deserve a rational dialogue. That approach deserves outright dismissal because he's being so caustic, so unreasonable. He's not listening. He's not being fair, he's not being nuanced. And everyone with a rational brain would say, just dismiss that nutbar. What I'm saying is that the power of a follower of Jesus is that we should be so secure in being image bearers of God, that we can even look at a guy like that and say, okay, this is the ultimate turn the cheek moment. I can say, yeah, okay. Yeah. Can you imagine if he would have said, you're right, we need to do a better job. That would have defused everything. Well, I don't think it would have because it wouldn't have given him what he wanted. I have a friend. He used to be our drummer. He lives in Australia right now. He's a DJ, Ken Green. So he and his buddy, they're on this, this well-known radio station, and they would call up pastors. That's terrible. But they would call up pastors at four o'clock in the morning and record it. Oh, no. And they'd act like they were needed help. So they'd call like a pastor up at like four o'clock in the morning. Go, pastor, help me. My car broke down and I'm or whatever, just some kind of thing. I need you to help me. And then the pastor would go, what are you doing? Calling me at four o'clock in the morning. Who is this? And then would hang up on him, and then they would play that on the radio and say, you've just heard from pastor so-and-so from this church. And so it's kind of epic, but really mean. Yeah, it is kind of it is slightly epic. But the point is, yes, it's epic. But also the point is, when I'm a pastor, when I take the authority of a spiritual leader, I am held to a standard that requires me to be like Jesus. And yes, we're all flawed and none of us loves perfectly, and the needs of the world are overwhelming. However, I think when I'm a pastor in Minneapolis during this time, I need to really seek God about how I can be Jesus in this situation. You don't have to be Minneapolis during this time in history that goes everywhere. It makes me think of one of the first times I went to Poland and it was during when it was still communist and the police were it was during the whole. Everyone in Poland was a punk during that time, and they were beating up all these guys. A friend of mine, they stopped them and they said, all right, you either take out your earrings or we're going to beat you for every earring you have, you know, because to be a punk was to stand up against the government. And he goes, go ahead, beat me. These guys really were revolutionary. Guys really got beaten up and stuff. But then this priest said, come to my church. They can't do anything to you. Here. Serve them tea and bread. Let them sleep in the church. The punks. Yeah, the punks. And they. And they just said, just open it up. Come on in. You know, you can sleep here. We'll give you tea and bread and we'll look after you. Well, guess what? They all wanted to go to the church because he was. He was showing this love and this revolutionary thing in a time of crisis. And it gave them such authority because of that. That's the moment for the church to be salt and light. That's the moment when we can show the difference. That's the moment that we can see everyone's going on about. We need revival. We need revival, you know. Well, you want revival. This is how it happens. That's that's convicting. Because, you know, I think my gut reaction to this is to while I ultimately feel like I have a Jesus perspective on this, initially, I want to kind of dismantle the fallacies in all of this, right? Like I initially mentioned, this idea that you can't honestly be expected to care equally for everything at all times. That's a that's not a human prospect. That's impossible. And then there's other things like, of course, looking at the extensive force that Christianity has been for good throughout history, and there's just abundant evidence. If you want to read books like Tom Holland's Dominion or other books like that, there's just so much evidence, whether it comes to orphan care or hospitals or care during plagues, or infant rescue, or dignifying women, or care for the disabled or prison reform Charity and on and on and on. Judeo-christianity has been this extraordinary agent for good, and I could want to use all of that in a way to just say, you know, so rest on that and be like, it's okay. I do what you can and and yes, challenge your own cold heartedness. But I think what you're bringing to the forefront here that I think is really vital is that extraordinary times call for a different standard from followers of Jesus, and that these are actually unique moments in history. And even some of the significant reform that I mentioned and listed was brought in moments of extraordinary historical challenge. I mean, you think of the Black Plague and monks running into that mess. We talked a lot about that during Covid, but even just the the dominance of the Roman rule and these really brave followers of Jesus who were rescuing babies that were bad, you need to not everyone is a historian. Just briefly talk about what they did, how they would run into the Black Plague, that a lot of people don't know what you mean. Well, yeah, I mean, there was the bubonic plague in the Middle Ages in Europe, and it killed like a third of the world's population. They had no idea how to stop it or how to save people from it. And so, of course, people would just having no idea how it spread, mass fear spread and people just bailed and abandoned those that were sick. And monks were of the only part of the population that actually would care for the sick, risking their own lives. It was this extraordinary sacrifice, and a lot of them became sick themselves and died as a result. So this is what Christians are called to radical countercultural action in the face of crisis. And so, yeah, I, I hear what you're saying, and it definitely is convicting. I'm dealing with my health stuff right now. You know, why I'm not more involved in in that kind of thing? But I do think if you're listening to this, you know, and you're well wherever you are, because you have your own Minneapolis thing happening, your own crisis thing going on somewhere around the world right now? Man, this is the best time. You know, God will help when I come to him and I say, God, give me your heart because I don't care. I'm selfish. I don't want to run into a plague where I might get sick, you know? Right? Why would I want to do that? I don't want difficulty. However, if I'm honest and I bring that before God honestly and say, but there's this crisis happening right now. Would you give me your eyes? Would you let me see it and then show me what to do? And often I get intimidated about doing anything because I think I have to do some big, huge thing. And it's not true. It's a small thing. Usually it might mean just bringing a cup of coffee to somebody at a protest. I agree, and I think one thing to add as well is those examples you guys have shared, whether it's from history or David, you were, you know, giving examples even more recently. And just like the priest in Poland and all all of those stories of somebody really doing something significant, often starting from a small step. It it really is in contrast to a lot of the current scene that we see with this political polarization. And I feel like that's a big part of the problem. Um, maybe one of the reasons the guys those protesters stormed into the church is because of that polarization. Right? There's an assumption. I know you're saying that there was something about one of the pastors in the church, uh, being a police officer or linked to it or somehow. But there's this general view of like, oh, the Christians, they'll be of this political, uh, conviction. And so they'll be about this. And then the, you know, the liberal left wing is about that. And so that polarization also destroys this, you know, the kind of real, um, revolutionary attitude that you guys are talking about because people just start taking sides and, and it gets all confusing, I think a true follower of Jesus living out being salt and like like the the verse you read David in, in our time will not fit in those categories. And that's something I think really important to remember in this. It's not gonna, you know, you're not going to do something by picking a side and then and then being really great at defending and fighting for that. You've got to step outside of that, you know, and I, I was thinking about this earlier this week. I had a trip to Germany, um, which is just next door to Poland, for those that don't know. Um, and so it was just visiting, you know, an event that was happening there. Um, and I was in a town in Germany that's this really beautiful old town. And it's got an amazing history because it was one of the places that Luther went to defend, um, the change he was bringing in the church and in theology at that time. But I was walking around this town, and the oldest Christian university, um, in the world is in this town. And there's an incredible story of like, just how the university formed so many people that went to change the world and all this kind of thing. And I'm. And I'm walking around this town and it's still got lots of university students but very little of Christianity. And, and I was just walking around just thinking about that. Like at first I was kind of discouraged and I was like, man, we're in this country that has had such a rich history and brought so much change in the gospel was preached. And this university was founded to teach the gospel and to bring change in society. And where is that now, and why is that not there? And but then, as I was just kind of praying and thinking over that, I had this, this sense of like God reminding me what his kingdom is really about and that it doesn't fit the molds and the categories of this world. There's the image that came to my mind was one that that the gospel and the kingdom of God is like this, this powerful, um, straight line going in the direction that is God's will. And the world is here kind of parallel, you know, and it's kind of going backwards and forwards with crisis after crisis and different stuff and and the power of God and the kingdom and the gospel will interact with that. It will bring change. It'll bring hope into darkness and into difficult places. But ultimately it's there's nothing that will stop it. There's nothing that stops, you know, God's kingdom moving forward and growing. And I think that that's part of what Jesus was teaching when he was saying, you're not of this world, you're in this world, but you're not of this world, and you should be salt and light in this world, but you're not playing the same game that this world is. And I feel like that's an important thing to remember. If we can set ourselves aside from the polarization, the politics and those confusions and say, I'm about Jesus and doing what Jesus would do in this situation, and that's often going to be really countercultural to any of the political sides. And maybe we can start then acting in more authentic care and love that we learn from him. Yeah. And I and I would say don't take the bait, don't get sucked into the polarities, don't allow the enemy to rob you of a moment where you're supposed to do something of significance. And, look, it is a complex issue and there are lies on both sides. And there are goons like this guy who are trying to pull you into those polarities. But I think as followers of Jesus, we need to get a little bit more simple, because, look, I don't care where you are on this spectrum, you can be the Christian who thinks that every Ice agent is from the devil and it's just nonstop twenty four hours a day abuse. Or you can think the other end of the spectrum that no, they're all just doing the perfect will of God, whatever, whatever you think. The fact of the matter is, this is a unique moment in history and culture where you can be Jesus to people in a way that they need. So I don't even care what you believe about this. What you shouldn't do, what you're not excused from is stepping out and making a difference. Like just ignore the polarities and the divisions and the fighting. I think of Romans twelve seventeen through twenty one and I'm like, imagine if we would take this goon who yelled at those people and respond like this never pay back evil with more evil. Do things in such a way that everyone can see your honorable. Do all that you can to live in peace with everyone. Dear friends, never take revenge. Leave that to the righteous anger of God. For the scriptures say, I will take revenge. I will pay them back, says the Lord. And then this instead. If your enemies are hungry, feed them. If they are thirsty, give them something to drink. In doing this you will heap burning coals of shame on their heads. Don't let evil conquer you, but conquer evil by doing good. And I just love that practical, simple response. You know, you got these Roman Christians living in this persecution and Paul saying to them, don't do what they do. Don't get pulled into what they do. Respond like Jesus. Feed them. Give them water for their thirst. Give them clothes. Be Jesus to them, and that in so doing you will make an extraordinary difference in the midst of a crisis. Reminds me, I think you and Aaron. Luke, you went to that gay pride thing in New Zealand. Yeah, that was Aaron's whole vision. Yeah, that was very cool. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, to give out water to everyone at the gay pride parade. Yeah. And on it, it said, come to me, those of you who are thirsty and you will never thirst. Or what was the scripture? Yeah, that was the scripture. And also Aaron called them before and asked if we could come serve. That was a really important move. Like he called and said, hey, we want to come and help and clean up and that kind of thing. But the point is, you went, you served, but you didn't quit having standards, right? I think this is where people get lost in this. They think, okay, we just need to not have any beliefs. As a Christian, everything is okay. There's no right. There's no wrong. Yeah. Um, you know, we talked about in the last podcast where I said, I think if a doctor cuts off the breasts of a twenty two year old girl, he's a monster. And I still think he's a monster? So I think there is evil. I think there's evil things that people do. It's like the Salvation Army William Booth preached. Those guys were psycho preachers of the gospel they just were in, but they were involved in caring for the needs of the people in the city, homeless shelters. They did all kinds of things to help in a practical way, to be Jesus in the streets of London, in other places. And they were real warriors. They actually got beaten up because they were going against the system, boldly preaching the gospel. But slowly they lost that and just became about social justice. And they left the gospel out of it. So I don't know if this is if I'm confusing things here, but I think that we are supposed to get involved in caring. But caring does not mean we stop preaching the gospel. No. But then again, that's where I am saying that we don't cede territory to either side, right? So we don't go onto the extreme of saying, well, they're all wrong and they're idiots, so I'm going to do nothing. On the other end of the spectrum, you completely adapt and conform your theology to fit the world so that you can perfectly align yourself with that. You stick to your standards. You stick to what you believe is true, and then you serve like Jesus. And you don't get distracted by those things because the needs are real. People need Jesus. They would have said that before all this. So why does that not still count now? In fact, now they need to know who Jesus is even more. And so to me, there's just a beautiful simplicity in knowing that we have been given the truth. We know what's true. Christians have this rich history and legacy of stepping into crises and making a huge difference. And that should continue. And I mean, the fact of the matter is, for those who accuse Christianity of being an agent of evil and a negative blight on the world are just idiots. They just don't know history. We've had Tom Holland, not the Spider-Man actor, but the author, brilliant author and historian. He wrote a book called Dominion. And there's two just banger quotes that I got to read because they're just so dang good. And this is a non-Christian historian talking about the impact of Christianity on culture. He says this to live in a Western country is to live in a society still utterly saturated by Christian concepts and assumptions that these should be so often unrecognized, even by those who most pride themselves on having rejected. Christianity is itself a measure of just how successful the Christian revolution has been. I mean, think about that. He's basically saying that the very people who pride themselves on having rejected Christianity stand on Judeo-Christian values. In fact, they'll judge other Christians on the basis of the very things they inherited from Jesus. Like every person being an image bearer of God and the value of every human life, and the need for fighting for justice on the basis of objective right and wrong. Here's another one. That's great. What modern people tend to assume is self-evident, that every human life possesses an equal and intrinsic value was an idea that required centuries of Christian labor to make seem so obvious. This is our heritage. So let's not abandon it. Let's lean into it. Let's not get caught up. Let's not. We don't have to grant them that their view of us is accurate. Let's prove them wrong with our love. Let's prove them wrong like the monks did. And let's make a difference. Let's step into the mess. Let's tell people about Jesus. Let's serve needs. And let's not waste this moment in history getting caught up in just algorithmically amplified polar nonsense arguments, because that's what most people are doing and reacting. Yeah. And I also think that we briefly mentioned it already, but I just think it would be hard to react on the moment for this pastor, for example, because he was forceful back, which I understand to kind of not really well. But anyway, the point though is if he would have just said, you're right, we can do better. There's a huge power in apology. Like, I've had to change a lot of tickets and stuff, and I'm dealing with a lot of airlines about changing some flights and stuff, and it's super frustrating. And I and I can remember I was in this one call for like an hour and I reacted really aggressively and impatiently, and then I felt convicted. And I said to the person, hey, I'm sorry, I should not have talked to you that way. You know, I know it's not your fault. Uh, would you forgive me? And the person was just like, uh, they almost started crying on the phone, you know? But there's something about, you know, saying, okay, I can do better or. Yeah, I'm not perfect. You were saying that, Ben, in the beginning, you know, we're not going to do everything right, but that would be so huge if we could have that posture. You know, I think there's something about having a humility as a Jesus follower that the world doesn't know and would be a huge testimony. I'd also I also want to add that like, I mean, as a as a foreigner visiting the US every year, being in Minneapolis every year, one thing that's interesting to me in all of this story is I've been to many churches in Minneapolis, and I think it's important to state that, um, there's so many really amazing things happening and being done by, you know, countless churches there that are that that's kind of their big focus. They want to do something for the community around them, or they want to go and serve all over the world. I mean, let's be honest, of course there's stuff for us to to grow and learn and improve and change. And there's always, um, yeah, you know, we can always get comfortable, you know, in our, in our suburban churches and all that kind of thing. But let's be honest, like, there's also so much good being done and that needs to not be forgotten in this situation. And, and I guess to also reemphasize or, you know, just emphasize the importance of the church and what that is. I mean, the beauty of a community of people coming together, um, in, you know, in faith and in and to worship God and to say, what can we do together to bring change? And how can we raise money to give to to people in our community, to help the community? What can we how can we raise money to go and help countries around the world that are suffering? I mean, how much money is raised from churches in Minneapolis alone for causes all over the world? And I think it's easy to lose sight of of what that reality is when you, you know, with the kind of criticism that came down there. So I just want to make that point. It's like, yeah, well, agreed. And let me just end with this. And then we got to transition on here and we, you know, get on to other things. But I, I said at the beginning that following Jesus gives you the basis for then having the, the assuredness of your own value and worth and salvation, that you can then go out into the world and be imperfect and try and try again and get up and apologize. That's possible because of who Jesus is and what he has done for us. You mentioned Martin Luther. He has this great quote. He says, we are not righteous because we do righteous deeds, but having been made righteous, we do righteous deeds. And that really does. That's not a distinction without a difference. It matters that I'm loved by God. And so now I can look at myself honestly, flaws and all, failures and all, and be ruthless with those. Apologize to the protesters shouting in my face in the absence of that kind of grace. I don't know, that would be really, really hard to do. And I think that is a unique superpower that followers of Jesus have. So when we react defensively, it's like, come on, draw on the grace that you've been given. Be like the parable of the debtor who recognizes the unforgivable debt that has been forgiven for you, and then return that favor to a world that does not know that truth and does not have that grace. Because I think that would make a significant difference. So. Oh. All right. Well, I don't know what we'll talk about next week. We might move on to something else, or the story might evolve and we'll just continue this conversation. We really appreciate you, but we really need to conclude this in a way that I think brings a little bit of clarity. And amidst all of the confusion that Luke has brought to this conversation, and so David is gonna he's gonna wrap us up in a way that's gonna send us off into our days and weeks and weekends with levity, love, and libations. David's random story. There's a couple of things that I want to highlight. One is I've always tried to figure out something that Ben could do, that he could have some kind of purpose or meaning in life. So when he was in high school, he got a job at a BP, British Petroleum, you know, this British Petroleum, you know this, right, Luke? Oh, I don't know this story. No, this is new to me. I'm excited. I'm getting excited because I'm like, I haven't heard this story yet. It's a shock, right? So and it was quite cool. Ben was really proud because he wore his little shirt with it, said BP on it and. So he'd go around Ben Pearce, you know what I mean? And he thought, I know he thought this was a way that maybe he would meet some girls. I think that the shirt. I don't know why I'm imagining it's a tank top. Was it a tank top? No. Oh, at a gas station. This was an actual uniform at a gas station. Yeah, but it's New Zealand. It's New Zealand, but it said BP on. No man alive has ever thought this is how I'm gonna get chicks, but carry on. But yes, people would come in to get petrol. Yeah. As they typically do at a gas station, but carry on. But the problem was Ben has no practical skills and he kept screwing it up so he would. Are you telling just my stories? You're just telling my failures. What does screwing up at a petrol station look like? That sounds dangerous. It's like he wasn't a mechanic or someone that has skill, but it was just put gas in the car, which now they don't do that anymore. When I first went to New Zealand, they had people that would put the gas in the car for you, but they don't do that anymore. But back then, Ben was reinstate everything. What? I'm just telling you. So that was so embarrassing. And he worked for, like, an hour and a half. We're gonna. We're gonna get to your failures as a dad right after you're done here. But he would. He worked for, like, an hour and a half. That was his shift. Wow. Right. Am I am I just waiting patiently so I can slam you for your bizarre parenting skills? So he worked for an hour and a half, and then he would go with Jody, his mother, my his mother out for lunch. So all the money he made was gone from that? I didn't pay for it. So what are you talking about? Oh, Jody paid for it, so I was. I guess I'm just happy that Ben finally made it through that period. I knew that wasn't going to work very well for him at the. You figured out what he can't do or what he wasn't going to do. Yeah. Why do Americans call a liquid gas? I don't know, but for those who waited till the end, they're like, boy, I'm glad I waited till the end. So you basically just took a job I had in high school and just made a story up. I don't even. What do you mean? That's what happened. Nothing to that story. Now, what are you talking about? How did it go at the. I appreciated that story. I know something new about Ben. I did make a lot of mistakes. Uh, there were several key, notable mistakes. The very simple one was like you had to replace people's old gas knobs. I'd forget, cause I'd be, like, filling up five cars at the same time. So that was a simple one. The more annoying one, though, was like someone would come up and for some reason, people in New Zealand at that time apparently were struggling economically because some guy would be like, hey bro, put ten dollars. And so like at first I'm like, what is wrong with you? You're a grown man. You're putting ten bucks in your gas tank. Like, just fill the dang thing up. Like, do you want to be back here tomorrow? Because apparently you do so. But the key was you had to take the little gas thing off, then put in ten bucks, then put it in, and it would put exactly ten dollars in. Nobody does that anymore, which is not easy. Well, the problem is, if you reverse order, you do ten. The second you lift off the thing, it resets. So I'd be off putting some gas in somebody else's car and come back. Lo and behold, forty two fifty is in that dude's car. And that guy was not happy because, you know, all he had was ten dollars, you know, from the fish and chip shop, ten dollars. And so he was pissed cause, like, he didn't want to pay. And then the light bulb would go on and they would think, ah, this is my moment to get free gas. But we had a hard. We will literally siphon it out of your car before giving it to you for free. Oh yeah. So we'd get these huge fights, and sometimes we actually did siphon it back out of their cars. The exact amount. Seriously, it was a hard line policy. So I made all sorts of mistakes. But the bigger question sounds like the bigger mistake is, look, I don't believe in hover parenting. You know, you got to let kids make choices. I was fifteen, one five years old, and my parents let me get a job with a one hour shift. It took no hour and a half. It's gotta be okay at some point. Do parents not wouldn't let you. Were you like, were you not there? So you're telling me that, like, you're still not giving any advice or guidance? You weren't willing to work longer than not true. I was given no. What's wrong with a one hour job? What's. What's the issue? That's just stupid. If my son at sixteen is like, I'm gonna get a job, and I'm like, oh, good for you. Go get a job. And he gets a one hour shift at a store. I'm gonna be like, hey, he worked. You are not getting that either. Ask for more hours. But you only worked on the weekends. I wonder, like what you and mom are doing. Like just. Were you advising us at all? Like, one hour? Talking about you only worked on the weekend? No, no. Weekend was three hours. That was the one three hour shift. That's when mom would take me to lunch. But then I had three one hour shifts. It took me fifteen minutes to get to work, fifteen minutes to get back, and I worked for an hour. All I did was provide the thirty minute conjoining lunch breaks for the full time people. That's all I did. So one guy could go on a lunch break and I was there, and then the next person would come back and go on a lunch break. And I was there, and then I'd go home. And meanwhile my parents were like, that seems like a good idea. It's like it was your version of the paper round. Yeah, but at least you worked. Luke never did any work when he was in in high school, did you, Luke? No, I didn't need to. He was an aristocrat. Like, would you like your pillow fluffed? Hey, you know, I actually really I really like these random story at the end, because we could just. Someone bring me my pie. I was a revolution. I don't feel any pressure. I was busy being a revolutionary. Yeah. You were. Oh, so you didn't work the course? Yeah. Revolutionaries don't work. Yeah. They don't. Yeah. Uh, your quality sucks, Luke. All right. This is great. Love y'all. Send in your comments concerns to Luke, and hopefully, well, you'll be out for a few weeks. So we we wish you well on your travels. Thank you. May you find what it is you're looking for out there in the wider world, young man. I'll try. And if you see one of these, send us a pic. I will, I always do. That was awesome. Love you guys. Talk to you next time.

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