How Would Jesus Respond to ICE in Minnesota?

You're listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. What's up everyone? Welcome to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. Learning how to follow Jesus in a post-Christian world. I am joined today by David Pierce, my dad, John Johnson, not my dad, and Luke Greenwood, also not my dad. What's up dudes, how's it going everybody? Rock and roll. Fab. Yeah. Totally fab. Is that a British thing to say? Luke? Fab. Fab. It's fab. I don't know, I don't know if that's a British thing. I believe that's the vernacular of people usually described as dandies. Tomorrow, Luke, I have a meeting with a British friend of mine. What's something I can say to, like, quasi offend him, but not too bad. Oh, wow. Can I think about that and come back at you later? Yeah. I was gonna say you put the most diplomatic guy on the spot there. That's not usually his M.O.. How do I offend people? All right, let's move on. All right. As I said, this is the Provoke and Inspire podcast. We have a really interesting, challenging, tough conversation for you coming up for those who are in the US. But I really think it's a global event at this point. Yeah, there have been well, there's so much going on around the world all the time. It seems more and more hectic, but I'm here in Minneapolis and for whatever reason, Minneapolis seems to be the hotbed of political controversy. Obviously, very famously, in twenty twenty, you have George Floyd. But now, um, with the whole, uh, issues surrounding immigration and the federal agents Ice being here in force to enforce some of the immigration laws that have been put in place. And, of course, you have the, uh, the killing of a protester who was in her car. And then you've had the ensuing unrest here in Minneapolis, but all over the world as a result. And you really have this challenging tension between those who claim that this is simply, uh, enforcing laws and attempting to root out bad actors and people who have come here illegally. And then on the other side, of course, you have people who say this is a gross overreach of power and people are being abused, and it's creating this climate of fear. And there's a lot of tension. And, you know, we haven't spoken about it yet. And yet I knew that we would need to because I think as a faithful citizen, as a follower of Jesus, this is the kind of topic that you do need to weigh in on. But even the delay in it, I think, is part of some of the talking points that I felt led to contribute, which is that in a world of instant reactions, issues this complicated do need time to really understand what's going on. And I don't want to just be someone who reacts without thinking, without caring, without actually counting the cost and contemplating what it is that God would have me do in response to the situation. So we're going to talk about that whole challenging situation that's happening here in Minneapolis with immigration and Ice and the protests and the violence and the unrest. I mean, there's real palpable tension. David, I know you're obviously here in Minneapolis, too. You could attest to this. There's real tension again in the air, kind of like there was in those sort of George Floyd era times. It feels not quite that intense, but it feels like that, at least from my end, that we're once again in this real, I don't know, this volatile moment where you don't know what it's going to do or where it's going to go, or how it's going to develop. And you feel this sense that everyone's kind of talking about it and not knowing how to react. You have all the polarities and all the tribalism and all the fighting. So we're going to talk about that. I was going to say, but before that we have David's random story. Why are you laughing? Yeah. What's so funny? Yeah. What's so funny? I don't why are you laughing at me? About a very serious thing that's happening in Minneapolis. And then you say, I'm going to give my random story, and then you kind of do this nervous laugh. Why do you think I did? I mean, I'm no scientist, but we'd like to gander a guess, I don't know. Would you see? Would you? I believe that's what the French call a non-sequitur. But here we go. David's random story. So the random story today is I felt that I should kind of give an update on Nigel as the random story, because I know many people. I miss this guy or girl or thing. Okay, so what does that say of the new listeners? You're like the guy who invites somebody over and then does a family slideshow. Let me tell you about my trip in Bora Bora. This would be relevant to everyone. So anyway. So Nigel, he's from New Zealand. He was in the US. So this is not a random story. This is literally just you making something up. So now he said he got a. Somehow he got a job with a pharmacy. And he's selling something called jardiance for a urinary tract infections, which I thought was a bit weird. But then I was reading the side effects because I don't know about you guys because, like, Nigel's selling this drug, But but he's talking about the side effects. And this is all really horrible. Yeah. So jardiance, you can look it up if you want. I tried it. Here are the side effects. Burning feeling when urinating. Pain in the lower stomach. Pelvis. Blood in the urine. Nausea. Joint pain. Upper respiratory tract infections. Vomiting. Extreme tiredness. Dehydration. Listen to this. This is real. I'm not making this up. Gangrene. Wow. Gangrene? Yes. You get gangrene from it, not gangrene. Gangrene. Gangrene. Serious serious allergic reactions. Hives, rash and swelling. But this is the best one. Amputations. Jardiance may increase the risk of lower limb amputations like toe, foot, or leg. Wow. Wow. So it sounds more like the disease itself rather than the stuff. It's not much of a cure medicine, does I? I'm like, why would you even do that? I'm not blaming Nigel. It's not his fault. Or is it? But, you know, he's just trying to make a living. So I don't know if our listeners have had, you know, thoughts about all these pharmaceuticals and the kind of drugs they're selling and all the side effects. But it was just something I was thinking about. Everyone's been thinking about that, actually. It's weird. So you just heard a pharmaceutical? What? You heard an advertisement for Radiopharmaceutical on the radio and then thought, I'm gonna just somehow smash that together with an update on Nigel. I mean, smash, I didn't smash anything. No, it's just all. What are you talking about, Nigel Benn? What was wrong with it? I thought it was cause it was nothing. It was like the definition of nothing. You just made something up. You picked a random look it up. Nigel told me. Well, yeah, I know that's real. It did kind of remind me what not to do, so that was good. What do you mean? Sometimes I need that reminder. Like, basically, I'm not going to take the drug or whatever it was called. He can't even order them because he can't say the word. He won't even be able to order it. Chad, if you can't say the name of the medicine so you'll be all right. All right. Let's move on. There is no easy way to do this, as I said in the beginning of the podcast. We're living in really tense times here in Minnesota, in Minneapolis. We just kind of seem to go from one political controversy to the next. And of course, the latest one is related to the actions of the federal agents, the Ice agents here in Minneapolis. They've been sent here to deal with those who are here illegally, and particularly focusing on violent criminals coming here to extract them and to deport them back to their countries of origin. Now, what, of course, inflamed this entire situation to another level. Was the killing of Renee. Good. I'm sure everyone has, if not seen the video, at least heard a description of what took place. Where she's in her car. It looks like she's trying to pull away and then she's tragically shot. Of course, that just took this from very tense to explosively tense, and we're still living in the days since then. And, you know, a lot of people see what they're doing as this gross overreach of power. You know, this kind of federal agents being sent in here in a very militaristic style every day. You can't avoid the anecdotes of target employees being grabbed, or you hear stories of, you know, friends. And, you know, I think if you're living here especially, you hear not just the direct anecdotes of people who are being affected by this, but also just the general fear that this is creating. I, I work with a guy, or rather, sorry, one of the dads on Macklin's hockey team. He owns like a snow removal business and he has a lot of Hispanic guys working for him, and he says they're all afraid to come to work. You know, and not because they're illegal, but they're just afraid to come to work. And so he's having a really hard time dealing with that. And honestly, stories like that are ubiquitous. I mean, everybody has a story like that. You know, families who have friends, Latino friends, especially who they're not sending their kids to school. So a lot of these schools are like missing a ton of kids. It's really regardless of where you land on this, if you can somehow remove yourself from the humanity of it. I don't know how you do that, because there are, of course, aspects of this conversation that are societal and political and immigration's hardly a new conversation. And, you know, you can go watch a bunch of videos and read a bunch of books and watch a bunch of, you know, podcast episodes, all about the various opinions on immigration and border control and expedited visa processes, and differentiating between legit asylum seekers and non legit and violent versus nonviolent. There are so many contentious aspects to this conversation, and predictably, everyone's so polarized. Predictably, everyone's, um, the way they interpret all the facts happens to perfectly align with their pre-existing political beliefs. Shocker, right? I've not really seen anyone I know that's more on the right having a left perspective. I've seen nobody I know on the left having a more right perspective. You know, that would just be a miracle of miracles, if just once a more right leaning friend of yours could have a more liberal perspective on something and vice versa. But of course, that never happens. And so here we are, and the whole situation feels so messy, so tribal, so polar. And I just wonder, like, what do we do? How does a follower of Jesus feel about a situation like this respond to a situation like this? Because I feel at a loss often, and I'm living right in the middle of it. So I don't know. Ben, could you give a bit more context? It's on the news all the time, everywhere globally, but I think it's more intense. Obviously there where you are, right? Obviously, especially in Minneapolis, but for like a more global audience. What is the situation like now? Like are there protests happening on the streets everywhere in Minneapolis? Um, what's the sense? Just give a bit more context for like people that aren't right in the center of of this happening. Full disclosure I have not joined any protests. I have not actively put myself in the epicenter of any of these things. I think, like most of these kinds of situations, the media often portrays things as more intense and dramatic than the reality on the ground. There are certainly protests happening. There are certainly certain hot spots in areas where there is more unrest. But you know how it is. I mean, you don't feel it. You can be five blocks away from it and not feel it. That's kind of how these things tend to go. So I would say from a average person's perspective, it's more attention felt than a reality seen and experienced. Now, again, I can't speak for a lot of people who are definitely engaging more directly. You were describing the Latino community and the fear there. How has it been with Ice in the US? Like, is it a particular focus on the does it feel like a particular focus on the Latino community, or. Because I know that in Minneapolis, you guys have a lot of, um, people from Somalia? Somalia. That's right. There's a massive Somalian community there. So is it like all different communities? What's what's going on? Again, I don't proclaim to be an expert on this subject. I think the most generic way to explain it is that there is an attempt to rectify what the current administration sees as a mass breach of the border that, you know, our country has been inundated with illegal immigrants of all nationalities, of all kinds, and that this is an attempt to rectify that situation. This is an attempt to go in to the places where they've gone. And, you know, the charitable way to look at this is that it's a targeted, deliberate, largely criminal focused extraction of illegal immigrants. That's what they would say. The left would say it's indiscriminate, it's arbitrary, it's abusive. That's kind of the polarities. On one hand, you have no, no, they're only going after rapists and murderers. On the other hand, you have no They're going after kindergarten teachers baking cookies and singing hymns. Those are the cartoonized polarities in this world where things are so tribal and so polar, and you can't even trust the things you see on your phone. It's like the truth is hard to know. And but like, logically, it's very likely something in the middle. I think there are certainly abuses of power taking place. And the way this is being dealt with is sort of militaristic, top down. What feels like a very aggressive approach. I think we got to dig into the thoughts on that as a, as a follower of Jesus. But yeah, it's it's really messy that that I know for sure. And there is widespread fear and hostility not seen since the days of George Floyd. Really. I don't think Jody and I when we're here, we live right in the city. So we have an apartment right in Minneapolis. We're about four minutes from where the shooting happened. And so, um, but, you know, what you see is like in a lot of lot of shops, they have signs on the door that say, this is a private space. Ice cannot come in here, you know, that kind of thing. So they put this like in all the restaurants in our neighborhood. Everyone's welcome. But ice I've seen I've seen those. Yeah, yeah. And so you see that in like all the shops and restaurants in our neighborhood. And I know people who are like Ben described, um, well, like my brother in law, he owns a bunch of car washes and a lot of people there aren't coming to work, and many of them are not coming to work who are legal, you know, they have visas or they're citizens, but they're just afraid to come to work because of that. They'll get picked up. And, um, so it is a mess. It's really a very messed up situation right now. And there's a lot of anxiety, especially for people who are profiled, you know, as kind of fitting the description of someone who is here illegally, those people, they need to make sure I mean, that they're carrying their documents with them if they go outside. Even our own people, we do a lot of work in the Latin American world. And because of that, there's a lot of us there and them here. You know, we have a lot of people around the world who are kind of interdispersed for a variety of reasons. And yeah, our own people have been told, bring your passport. Yeah, there are that you have that have that with you. Because obviously if you if you have your passport and you're documented they'll not do anything then, right, they pick you up, let's say you're a Latino but you're, there's that's where this gets so tricky, Luke, that no one really seems to know the parameters. And there are there have been multiple reports of people getting picked up that then later on prove their citizenship and are released. But after a very dramatic and traumatic, uh, like, like public pickup kind of thing. And, um, just, you know, from my side of things, my father in law is still a pastor to a small Hispanic church outside of Birmingham. He's eighty. I think in a couple of weeks he turns eighty five. Still, he and his wife pastoring this church. And and so they have, you know, they've had some people that have been picked up. Their church services are smaller, same kind of thing. There's just a lot of fear, it seems, in minority groups, because it just doesn't. There doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason as to who exactly is, uh, suspect in this. So it just feels like it's a lawless gang of very heavily armed individuals who are deciding for themselves whether someone looks like they might be here illegally. Yeah. And again, I want to believe that that's not true. Right. And I also believe that you have to be absolutely naive if you don't think that both sides are dramatizing and exaggerating and exasperating the polarities of this for political purposes. I mean, that is just absolutely what's happening. And so I don't know the truth. And but I know enough to know, to mistrust or distrust what I see and what I hear. And so, so I it feels to me again, these are these this is my un informed probably probably on both sides. Would that be fair to say that it's hard to trust on either side one hundred percent. And, you know, one of the things one of my good friends said is, you know, he said that if your perspective on this so happens to perfectly align with your pre-existing political beliefs, and you don't question that on any level ever. That should give you pause. Mhm. Right. Kind of like what I said at the beginning of this conversation. If just once one of my left leaning friends would have a more right leaning perspective or my right leaning friends and I got plenty of those would have more of a left leaning perspective. There would be some hope for the world. But what's so frustrating is that we live in a time now where anything can be dismissed as fake news. Everything can be and both sides do it. You can say that that's a right leaning word that Trump kind of coined, but both sides do it. Both sides dismiss whatever data doesn't conveniently fit within their narrative. They both do it, and they both create these hyper cartoonized versions of what's going on to support their perspective. And then I would like to get into some of the maybe Jesus following principles in terms of how to unravel this and how to navigate it, though I do think it's good to process, it does feel like there are so many stories that it feels hard to deny that at the very least, the approach is highly aggressive. It does feel like what needs to be cautious and surgical feels like carpet bombing. I personally know people and so do you, Ben, who have stories about that. People who are here legally are afraid to leave the house. So that's not that's not something I've read on social media. I know people in that situation. So that is happening as I was reflecting on this, I think one of the first things that I felt a sense of conviction over is, is just my heart in all of this because I don't think as followers of Jesus, I just don't think we have an option to not care. I know that sounds like almost rhetorical. It's so obvious, but it's like, I don't care what side of this you're on. I don't care what your views of immigration are. People are being affected by this. Innocent people are being affected by this. There is widespread fear. And I'm sorry, but me sitting in my suburban house, I mean, I'm actually pretty close to all of this, to be honest. I don't really live that far out in the suburbs. But for those of us living out in our suburbs miles away from where most of this is happening, I don't think we can afford to sit back if we care about honoring Jesus. I think the first place to start with this is to say, God really break my heart for the people involved, right? I mean, isn't that the most obvious place where this needs to start? I mean, for me, I would I'd even back it up one, one step, you know, previous to that which is God forgive my heart because my knee jerk reaction and I realize how much. Since I was in high school, I have had such a struggle with authority in my life that as soon as I see or feel this kind of authority structure that seems to be so heavy handed and so brutal, my knee jerk reaction is to curse. I also know, as a follower of Jesus, that nothing about that posture will actually change anyone, especially me or especially them. So I think for me anyway, I've had to start by just saying God, I confess that I the first thing I feel is hatred, anger and rage against authority structures that seem so contrary to your kingdom. Please help me to have your heart in seeing all of this the way you would. One of the things that's very clear in the Bible is that God is love. Love does not exist where there is no God, because God is the source of love. And Jesus was the expression of God on the earth in human form, and Jesus was compassionate to the unlovable. You know, the tax collectors and the notorious people, the sinners. So whatever side you're on, you would define the unlovable as the ones that are on the left. If you're if you're on the right and if you're on the right. Do you hate the people on the left? I had a friend. The green one. Antonius. Uh, he's a famous guy in our mission world. But anyway, he's he started a a home for destitute people in Delhi. And so he was reaching the poorest of the poor. It was like Mother Teresa kind of work. But then he started to get this disdain for people who weren't destitute. He didn't like people that had money. He looked down on them, but he asking them for money to support what he was doing in India. And I can remember I was with Antonius. He knows he wouldn't mind me talking about this on this podcast. But anyway, so we're talking about that and I'm going, Tom, you gotta cry for the rich if your heart isn't broken for people in the nice houses, and it's only for the people who are under the bridges, you're not like Jesus. So that has to be my heart. If I don't cry for ice, no matter what I think about him, as much as I cry for the immigrant, then I'm wrong. I'm not. I don't have the heart of Jesus. What would Jesus do if he came to Minneapolis right now? I think he would really offend a lot of people in terms of who he would be hanging out with on both sides. Well, that's why he ended up dead. Well, obviously, other than the divine plan, it's like the Braveheart quote if you make enemies on both sides, you end up dead. And that's exactly what happened. It's very easy, actually. It's not difficult at all to know if I have the Jesus heart on this whole situation. You know, it's pretty simple, man, that is. But that is so Dang radical, right? Because and what's what's revealing about that and you articulated that well is that, you know, one minute you're on the side of defending the equivalent of ice, and on the next minute you're on the side condemning the equivalent of ice, depending on your political perspective in the whole trans debate. You know, speaking of getting canceled here, it's like the doctors involved are either heroes or monsters. It just depends on what side of the issue that you fall on. Yeah, but I think you can still say they're monsters. You didn't even let me finish my point. My point, similar to the point you made, is that the Jesus heart is still for the same person, regardless of your perspective on them. And that is just massively radical because we live in a time that doesn't honor that. Pick a side. Doesn't honor that. Yeah, exactly. It honors quick reactions, picking a side, inflammatory comments, provocative t shirts. You know, that's what it honors because that that is the society that we live in. And yet that's antithetical to Jesus. But doesn't that to some degree, I don't know what what does that what does that mean for you as a person? Because I think that that kind of makes you a nomad in a society that demands tribe allegiance. Well, that's a really good way of putting it. And that and that makes it biblical. We are nomads, right? Jesus told us we we were not of this world and that we were sojourners. We were just passing through and and that we shouldn't be of this world. So when I hear you guys talking about it, that's what it makes me think of the fact that following Jesus is countercultural, and it always will be. And and yet sometimes we think that when you get into the politics of something on one side, people will say, well, we're countercultural, you know, we're on the left or whatever, we're countercultural. And then the guys on the right will say, no, we're countercultural. It's following Jesus does mean stepping back from all of that and asking God for his heart for people. I think that was amazing how you put it. David crying for an immigrant in the same way you'd cry for us, and being able to actually cry for somebody who's in ice. You know, I mean, that's that's a really strong way of putting it. Um, how do we take a step back and get God's heart for people and for a situation that that's countercultural? And I think that the result of it will be something you were talking about near the beginning, Ben, of that you'd love to hear your right leaning friend say something more left leaning or understand the other side, or vice versa. And that's probably what that will look like when I when I hear God's heart, I'm going to do things that just don't fit the tribalism, that don't fit those divisions. I mean, it would be the more conservative or Republican person who wants to see the immigration situation in the US or in whatever country here in Europe, because there are various parallels. Um, they want to see the immigration situation sorted out. They have that political view. But when they encounter somebody who's an immigrant and is, um, struggling or in need or having some that they would actually help them. They would be Jesus to that person. They would help them out. Or um, I remember this is an interesting example just came to my mind. Um, there was a time where in Ireland there were a lot of, uh, there's a lot of immigration. And there was a friend of mine from Brazil who was over there, and there are a lot of Brazilians that had gone over there, a lot of Polish different people. And there was a church that he was part of in Ireland, and they were trying to help people who had come in as immigrants. They were trying to serve. They were involving them in the church family. They were trying to support people, but they didn't allow undocumented immigrants to serve in ministry because they so they were they were both saying, don't, don't live a life that is not truthful and not right and not doing the right thing. We're not going to support that. But we also want to care for the community around us. So it was just Counterculture in the sense that it didn't fit any of the political sides, but it was. It was having Jesus's heart for people. So I think that's that's a big thing about being a follower of Jesus. In any one of these situations we're looking at, it's like, how can I not fit in with the tribalism? Step back and say, God, what's your heart? And how do I how do I in each situation that comes before me, show your heart and you know I can't do anything about everything, but I can do something about what's happening in front of me right now. Yeah. And I would say, though, that I think an important thing to mention. And David, you mentioned this as it related to the monster comment is what this doesn't mean is that you don't take sides and you're indifferent and you're apathetic and you you don't act when you see injustice. That's not what we're saying, right? It's you love people and you recognize the the shared humanity no matter what. But you do. If you do feel as submitted to Jesus and His desire for your life and the lives of those around you. If you do see injustice and God calls you to step into that, like you're not going to ever do that perfectly right. But we're not saying, well, in the name of loving everyone, you just kind of sit on the sidelines like, because some people could say that, like, well, that's all well and good for you to say love the ice guy, but the ice guy is the guy that's causing all the fear and the the chaos and the trouble. That's great. I can love that guy. But what I need to do is serve the immigrant well. I mean, the Bible speaks very clearly about faith that has no action. You know, James two fourteen, you know, what is it? Profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but has no works? You know, and I think that that's true if our I think that works, if I just have a theological faith, you know, if it's just a matter of certain doctrines that I memorize and, and then make me feel secure and I don't, but then it has no outworking in terms of how I live. But I think if I'm really a Jesus follower, I have to do something. It's not like the monster comment, you know that I don't know. Did I talk about that on the podcast? I was speaking at a church here. I don't think I talked about how this doctor who cut off the breasts of this young girl was a monster. Because of that, I was the church took my sermon down, um, from the internet. And then the whole next Sunday, he talked about, uh, he his sermon was basically apologizing for the comment that I made about how this doctor was a monster. Well, I think a doctor who cuts the breasts off a twenty two year old girl is a monster. And I'm not going to change my opinion on that or back down from that. I think the problem is there in the church. There's a lot of people don't take stands on evil things that are happening. Okay. But then doesn't that contradict what you said? No, it's talking about loving for that monster. The doctor is a monster. Do I need to have God's heart for him in terms of he's a God, loves him and cares about him. The use of that word does not necessarily seem to imply that you have a heart for the guy. I know, but I think that there are there is time for strong language, for things like that. I think that what you're saying is that doesn't mean that we don't take stands on things that are really evil, or where it's appropriate for us to do that. I mean, I think where I was, I was speaking it was in Minneapolis that has a very liberal view on all these kinds of things, but I felt like it was appropriate and right for me to take a stand on that. And when I was speaking, I think there's times for prophetic things to be said. Yeah, I don't disagree, but I think that, you know, not to pick on you in that specific circumstance, but it's a little bit of this conversation. It's relevant to this conversation because some might argue that that's inflammatory language, that there is a way to communicate the truth of that situation in a way that does not just create more division and more chaos and more conflict. And a lot of the social media rhetoric, rhetoric, a lot of the protest rhetoric, a lot of the back and forth is exactly that kind of language. And you would have to, based on a conversation with you later, realize, oh, oh, but he still does love that person, even if they're egregious in the act that they committed. But you would never get that just by hearing you talk. You would think he hates that guy. And because of the injustice, the same argument can be made of someone who hates the Ice agent because of the injustice that they're committing. But I don't think I don't think that, um, saying that we need to be countercultural and not tribalistic and not just fit in with the political game thing and take a step back means that we don't take action or that we that we can't be strong in our words and call things out. Um, so so I don't know if I don't know if the goal is to avoid like being being strong and sometimes and being offensive in a sense, to call things out is I don't think that that's what it means to not be involved in in a two sided political game, because, I mean, you can look at examples of how Jesus or John the Baptist dealt with people around them at the time. And there was yeah, there were certain groups of people that they called out like that in a strong way. Now, Jesus didn't fit in to the political game of that time. He didn't take a side. He wasn't like, I'm with, um, the tax collectors and the Romans. You know, I think that it's okay. Romans are okay. You know, he wasn't taking that political stance and he wasn't taking the stance of the zealots. Right. Who were the revolutionaries who wanted to by force, knock, knock the government down? Yeah. Or the Pharisees who are like the guys who were, you know, all about the law. He didn't take those sides. He was defending all of them in with a tribe. Exactly. So but it didn't stop him from speaking strongly and calling stuff out. And and so, you know, I think I think it's something about, um, it's like, God. What is your heart for each situation? How do I how do I love people well and how do I call things out? God. God brings together those things. That's the amazing thing about his character. He brings together justice and love and grace, righteousness and peace. And he just brings these things together. And and so following Jesus means learning. How do I apply that in in this situation? Right in front of me, people go out on the streets and protest because it's a tool that a population has to deal with a problem. So, you know, even I wonder, like in the timing of reacting, you were talking about Ben like, oh, should we react quickly? And I was thinking about that, and I was trying to put myself in the place of somebody who's super angry about ice being in Minneapolis and doing all this stuff. You might be you might argue and say, well, maybe they needed to go quickly on the streets and protest about it to because it's the only tool they had to show the government that they're not cool with it, you know? So so it's just, um, you got to think about each situation. Say, God, what's your heart in this? Yeah, no one hundred percent agree with you and that I did want to bring that thread throughout this conversation because I recognize the tone deafness of saying, like a university professor, I just need to be calm and think it through. And if it takes me six months to come to my conclusion, I can do that. Well, people would argue like no action needs to be taken now. There are people under threat now. I can't have that kind of, you know, professorial like abstract removed idea. And yet that does need to be coupled with the fact that, man, I don't know about you, but the few times I or whenever I react quickly, I rarely react rightly. It's just the truth. And scripture would completely back that up. Like speed is the enemy of wisdom. And so we are legitimately caught in a position where here we are. We're in this incredibly polarized time. We live in an age where everything we look at is tailored to give me exactly what I'm thinking. We live in an age where things are made up and exaggerated, and you're telling me, in light of all of that, in the echo chamber that I live in and the technology that reinforces the echo chamber that I live in. I need to make a judgment in that environment and then react quickly, adding to the hostility as a result of that. At the very least, we need to be skeptical about that, right? I mean, we can't. Yeah, I agree with you, but can't we at least recognize the tension of doing that? Yeah, and I'd add to it because I agree with that. And I would add to it that we get this kind of false or artificial impression of reality from the way media is and how global it is that that somehow we can do something about all these things. Sure. And that creates a kind of an anxiety, right? It's like it's this thing, like, man, I need to say something because, you know, everybody's saying something and I need to say something. And let's be honest, for most of us, saying whatever on social media or putting a sign up somewhere or whatever is not going to make any difference. And so it's not going to help. So, so and so I was reflecting about this okay. Because that's the impression you can sometimes get. Man I've got to do something about Iran. And I should, you know, say something about the ice thing or about Venezuela. And we get all kind of caught up in this. I think that we have the responsibility to react to the things that are in front of us or that God puts on our hearts. And I think that that's some one way of looking at the situation of the world today. Say, God, what are you asking me to do something about right now? And it might be something on the other side of the world. I mean, God, God is a missionary God. He sends us to all places around the world. He might give you a heart for Venezuela. And so Venezuela is in trouble right now. You should be praying. You should be giving. You should be doing something to help those guys. Um, it might be that you're in Minneapolis and you see some, you know, immigrant who's running down the street and doesn't know what to do and is super lost and confused, and you and God gives you a heart and says, do something for that person. Step out and serve them and help them out. And it's against your political position, but you're going to do it because that's what that's the situation that has turned up in front of you on your doorstep, and you're a follower of Jesus, and you're going to say, God, give me your heart right now. What should I do? So I feel like we need to do a bit of that in this world of confusion and too much going on, too much information, you know? Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. I do really love your point about overinflating the value of our participation in the process. Like, I know that sounds very nihilistic, but the fact is, like you're just not as important as you think you are and your opinion is not as needed as you think it is. And one of the things I was thinking about is David Wilkerson. And, you know, here he is, this humble country preacher, and he hears about the violence in New York among the gangs. And then he went on Twitter and he posted about how angry he was. And then he got Starbucks and moved on. Wasn't that an awesome testimony of what David Wilkerson did? Right? Like the fact. No, I was I was like, they had Starbucks back then. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the Twitter should have been your first clue. Um, but no. What does he do? He. It wrecks him. It ruins him. He goes before God in prayer, and then he reroutes his entire life to go completely out of his way in a way that made no sense as this country preacher to the city of New York. And, you know, then you get the whole cross and the switchblade, this incredible story of the way God used him to bring Jesus to that dark place. And I was like, we need more of that. We need less reactions and more sacrifice, more embodied love of Jesus in difficult places. Um, and I'm not saying that doesn't mean there's not small ways to contribute, but it would be nice to see some more significant contributions rather than all of these social media warriors online when Jodi and I are in Minneapolis, a neighborhood we live in, it's near a lake in the city, and so there's a lot of people with a lot of money that live on the lake. And when you walk around the lake, which is a common thing to do here, these multimillion dollar homes will have a sign like, all are welcome here. You know, there are no illegal humans or whatever, but we all know that if I went to the door and said, hi, where's my room? All are welcome here. That would be an interesting thing to call it out. You should try it. You should try it. It's just virtue signaling there. It's. People are generally generous when they don't have to give. You know, it's like when it's other people's money or the government's money or doesn't cost me anything. Then I'm very generous in my political views. So I think you're right. What is it costing me now? I've been kind of busy with dealing with my health stuff, so I haven't been very involved in what's going on here in Minneapolis. But I know people who are I know people who are delivering food to those who are afraid to leave their homes. And also, I think we need to see the significance of prayer. What a big deal that is. So maybe as a Jesus follower, you know, you go to where there's some of these protests and we pray we don't swear at the whoever we want to swear at and throw things, but we go there and we pray for the presence of God, and we ask God to send us to people that we can talk to, whether it's one of the protesters or one of the guys from Ice, whoever. But we're there to be Jesus in that situation and also pray for God to bring justice. If you're listening to this and you're going, this is way too big for me, which it is. Like Ben said, we need to not have a higher view of ourselves than we should, but I think we can go and we can say, God, start praying. If you're on the right or the left, pray and say, God, bring justice, bring hope. In this situation. Usually then the Holy Spirit will put something on your heart to do. Practically. Often God like puts stuff in front of us for us to do. I've seen that in my own life. Like because. And that to me is is a good way to respond to the feeling of like, ah, when you look at the world like we were saying, and there's just too much, it's overwhelming and I can't do everything. What should I do? I think God often puts stuff in front of us that that we're supposed to react to, that we're supposed to do something about. Like a person or a situation or something that we can contribute that that has to do with what we can do and, and our calling and like, um, there's a passage in Luke uh, six, uh, where Jesus says, give to anyone who asks. And when things are taken away from you, don't try to take them back. Do to others as you would like them to do to you. If you only love those who love you, why should you get credit for it? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good only to those who do good to you, why should you get credit? Even sinners do that much. And you know, so he's talking about loving your enemies and loving people around you. But I just really struck me how it starts with saying give to anyone who asks. And that's been a principle that's kind of stayed in my mind. Often when I'm like, well, what can I do? What am I supposed to do? What's my part to play? It's often actually something that God puts in front of you, or somebody that asks you or a situation you're aware of that you can do something about. And that's way better than posting lots on social media or putting a sign up, because it's something real that you can do to make a difference in that situation. Yeah, and I think that's what I was trying to emphasize with the whole sacrifice overreaction is that I think not only have we inflated the importance of our reaction, but also the impact of our reaction. Like, what difference am I actually making, right? And and we even sort of measure the impact of what we're doing by the anger of what we're doing. You know, if I'm really upset, then I'm making a big difference. If I'm really angry on social media, then I'm making a big difference. And I've been so convicted by James one nineteen through twenty. That applies just to every aspect of my life, where it says everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry. And here's the key part human anger does not produce the righteousness God desires. If there's anything that should deflate the balloon of your angry reaction to a situation and the impact that that has, it's this. It's submitting to the idea that I'm not God and that I need to serve and love, that his way of doing things is so radically different, and that just being riled up and angry, it's not producing God's righteousness. So if we claim that our goal is God's righteousness, that we want as followers of Jesus, to see his righteousness done on this earth, my anger is not the way, and I have to humble myself to accept that. And so then what is the way? And David, you said it. It's love. It's sacrificial love. It's costly, self-sacrificial love. And that's going to be way less quick. It's going to be way less public likely, at least in the beginning. But it's actually going to make a real difference. And I think that's what we're all kind of circling around here and saying, But that's kind of how I feel about this is, man, if I'm submitted to Jesus, I want to make a difference. And if I want to make a difference, it's going to be a lot less politically aligned and it's going to be a lot more costly, but it's actually going to honor Jesus and make a difference, which is what I should want. And I think I think it always big. Change always comes by small actions. It's always been that way, you know? Yeah. Interesting. Big change always comes. It's, you know, it's the principle of of, uh, feed the multitudes with five loaves and two fish. And so the biggest thing the devil will do is to try to keep me from taking those small actions. But those small actions, you know, empowered by the presence of God, can change the world. Actually they do. And there's all kinds of examples of that. Those small actions, they're small, but they're not. You know, we don't take ourselves too seriously. But when those small actions are Holy Spirit led, even though they are small and insignificant, that's when big things can start to happen, you know. And so that's that's what I need to not listen to is this idea what's the point? I can't make a big difference. Or like you were saying, you know, Ben, about we need to just scream and swear and shout and whatever. Like that's not going to produce anything good. In fact, it's going to actually do the opposite of what we're angry about. And so that's what I need to go on a prayer walk and get out my anger and bring it to God and tell him, let me have his eyes in this situation. All right. Well, anyway, not easy situation. An easy topic and very much happening as we speak in real time. So I'd imagine even between now and when this comes out, the situation may have evolved. Um, man, I don't know about if you guys ever think about this, but sometimes I think about some of those, uh, January twenty twenty podcasts we recorded about this, uh, Covid virus and how exaggerated and laughable the whole. I know we were making jokes about it. I know, like everybody, and I just have mercifully not come back. So if you want to go on a little adventure and document all the ways we are terribly wrong. You can go ahead and do that. There's a full catalog of over six hundred episodes for you to listen to. So we've we've laid it all out. We've been wrong on air many times, Chad, especially. We could I'm sure we could be canceled many times over. Ben, you know, the way that I deal with stress is I make jokes. So I made a joke and Ben said I couldn't share it on the on the podcast. So you're gonna leave us hanging, dealing with stress. All right, well, thanks for listening to the podcast. Uh, you know what to do. All the usual things. We love you and keep it real. Peace.

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