How to Keep Faith Real When the Hype Fades | Pastor Jimmy Seibert

What does it mean to really pursue intimacy with Jesus? And why is it that though it's something we all long for, it's so often a struggle to actually experience it in our lives, in our churches and communities? I had an incredibly profound conversation with Pastor Jimmy Seibert about these very questions. Guys, I don't say this very often, but this was one of the more profound, powerful conversations I have had in a long time. We explored how to cultivate authentic intimacy with Jesus. What helps or hinders that pursuit? On top of all that, Jimmy shares this incredible story that goes all the way back to No Longer Music's Russia tour in the early nineties. It is hard to believe and you're going to love it. And speaking of those early days in Amsterdam and Europe. This podcast is part of a worldwide missions organization. It's not just a couple of dudes having some conversations. It's embedded within this larger missional community that started in Amsterdam, but now is all over the world. In fact, we're active in over two hundred cities. Reaching those who would not walk into a church. I think that makes this podcast exciting, and it gives it a lot of authority. And I want you to know more and get connected. If you go to Steiger Org, that's where you can find out more. Lastly, if this podcast inspires you, if it challenges you, if it's something that has been a part of your life, one small thing I ask in return is that you would just share it with somebody else. Invite them to be a part of this. They can join our community and together we can strive to be like Jesus and to be faithful for him in a post-Christian world. When you get the word out, it makes a huge difference. And it means a ton to me and the other guys. I know that for a fact. All right, well, let's get into the conversation with Pastor Jimmy Seibert. You're listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. Jimmy Seibert, welcome to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. All right, first of all, it's Jimmy Seibert and. Oh, no. Oh, no. But hey, listen, it's it's everybody does it. So here's the deal. Your dad would know it because it's like Dutch. German. So you the silent e Seibert. We're good bro. I love you, man. We're in. I was born and raised in Amsterdam. And here's the funny thing. I just went for it. You know, you can't fault me for confidence because I didn't even hesitate, man. You shouldn't hesitate. Way to go. Uh. My middle. So I got three kids. I got nine, seven and four. My middle daughter is Teva. Okay, t a y v a. And so her entire life, no one's gonna ever pronounce that properly. So, look, I have saddled her with a similar conundrum, and I'm sure you've corrected more than your fair share. We are good to go, man. Thank you. Okay. All right, so what we were starting to talk about before I decided we got to hit record is the context. Because unlike a lot of the guests that I have the privilege of having on, we actually have some history that predates me and our relationship that's starting to form right now. So could you share a little bit about the connections that happened in the past and what's led to this moment? So, um, we started a little missions training school in the late nineteen eighties, and we would spend nine months in the city and three months overseas. And a part of that one month to six weeks of that would be in Amsterdam with Ywam Amsterdam at the time. And we would do what's called Summer of service, and we'd work in and out of the red light district. We would do ministry on the streets, and we would often go out with your dad and or groups from at that time, it was no longer music. I didn't know it as Steiger, though. They were on a houseboat, on a Steiger, on a pier. Um, but, um, we would go do outreach together, that kind of thing. So I knew your dad more as a leader. And I was just one of these little guys running in and out of Amsterdam. Then in nineteen ninety one, we were a part of Move of God one summer in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary. And I mean what I mean, move of God. I mean thousands of people in the streets, miracles, the blind seeing deaf hearing hundreds of people coming to the Lord. And I'm I'm on a train going to visit one of the leaders at Ywam from Budapest, Hungary to Amsterdam. It was the overnight train. And I'm praying that night I'm thinking, if God's doing all this in Eastern Europe, I wonder what he's doing in Russia. God, would you show me what you're doing in Russia? So I land at Central Station in Amsterdam. I walk across the street over to the main Ywam building there, meet my friend Derek, and, um, and I said, hey, Derek, what's going on, man? He said, let me tell you what God's doing in Russia. That was it. So I prayed the prayer. He wants to tell me. Yeah. He said, hey, our band, NLM and and other outreaches have been seeing hundreds and sometimes thousands of people respond to the gospel. And he said they had such a move of God in Moscow and Saint Petersburg, etc., that a rock concert promoter from Siberia came up to them and said, hey, I hear you guys want to preach Jesus to people who've never heard. I'll set up an eight city tour in northern China, Mongolia and Siberia, and you guys can come do your thing. To those who've never heard. And your dad and the team said, yeah, let's do it. And and Derek said, hey, as we prayed about it, we felt like God is inviting us to plant churches, but why doesn't plant churches? So we wanted to initiate with you guys to join us. We'll do the initial outreach. You guys plant the church. And what do you think? So of course we prayed about it, etc. and we end up in the fall of nineteen ninety one with your dad and the NLM. Band no longer music. And hilariously, there are no sex tours. So the the grime and punk rock don't do it. Stop it. Jesus is Lord. You know all that stuff. So not the way that I would normally start planting a church, but you know, it drew some crowds. And so, uh, so actually we got caught in a snowstorm together, and so only around one hundred and fifty people showed up at this city of four hundred thousand people, where they have been seeing a thousand plus, you know, at every venue. But because of the snowstorm, one hundred and twenty show up, thirty people respond to the gospel. Your dad and the team invite them up to the stage. Then they invite us over and they say, hey, here they are. What do you want to do? So the translator and I are kind of telling people, hey, we want to meet every day for the next three weeks. We're going to be here for three weeks, and we want to help you guys walk with Jesus, be disciples and disciple makers. So another wild story I'll tell you in a minute, but I'll just pause here to say that that next day the band left, right, because they were on the road and they did their deal. But since then that thirty has turned into three hundred plus over the years. Still alive, flourishing church. They planted five other churches. They're still in our movement. I still see these guys. And the name of the church is Mirror in Russia, which means light of the world. And, um, and so it's just wild to be sitting on a podcast with you because I, we were down in Colombia with, you know, the last couple of summers with you guys. And somehow I find out eventually through Felipe and those guys that, oh, well, no, we were involved. We come kind of from Amsterdam. And I said, are you serious? Do you know David Pearce? And they said, they said, yeah, I mean, he started our movement. I said, is he still alive? That was my first question. We're all getting a little older. Of course he is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he said no, his son Ben runs everything. And here's what all. And I said unbelievable that the Spirit of God is reconnecting us for such a time as this. And uh, man, we have loved our next gen crowd. Just loves Steiger. Anytime we get to do outreach together, anything we get to do together has only been a gift. So there you go. That's a little bit of the connect that is wild. Because, you know, when you were in Amsterdam in those early days, I was three, four running around. Me and my brother were probably causing havoc in the background for sure. And obviously, I've always heard these stories from one perspective. And of course, I knew of the church planting kind of parallel vision that was going alongside that truly historic tour in that part of the world at that time. And so to hear your role in that and the body of Christ and then, you know, I've known that some of these churches are still going strong today. So to hear it from your side is that is wild. And for, you know, I don't know if you know this, but no longer music is alive and well. I've been the creative director of the band for probably fifteen years. I didn't know that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's I mean, we have just personally, just since being involved, we've probably performed well over a thousand shows in fifty plus countries. I mean, from the centre of Berlin, all throughout Latin America, uh, New Zealand. I mean, we've been we've been all over back to Russia. We did a tour in Russia. I want to say eighteen. Maybe seventeen. Eight twenty seventeen twenty eighteen. Um, kind of before things started getting pretty draconian. And obviously things have changed there a lot all throughout Ukraine, Western Europe. So it's, uh, this thing is far from being dead in many ways, is alive and kicking. And I don't know who knows what kind of crazy adventures we have together, uh, in the future. Here. Yeah. I was going to say. I want to tell you just one other little wild story that kind of will set the set the table. So, um, so NLM, right? You guys would always have translators with you. And we were told, hey, meet at this city in southern Siberia, seven and a half hours from Moscow, and we'll connect and do the do the outreach. Right. So there's three of us, and we on the way. In those days, you had to check in in the embassy in Moscow. So we went to the embassy, signed in, and the guy said, hey, I don't know why I'm telling you this, but there is one guy from the US Army that works for the arms inspection team. That's that's in Ulan-Ude. While you guys are there. I'm going to write his name down on a piece of paper. So this is the paper days, right? So I put it in my backpack. I got a piece of paper. Guy's name? Scott. Sharon. So when we get there to Ulan-Ude, which was the name of the city. City of four hundred thousand. What? We didn't know it was a military city. So it had a nuclear warhead city attached to it. And that's where one of the arms inspections places was. Uh, you know, for Russia. So anyway, we get there before the band gets there. And the lady, basically we were only booked for one night, and, um, we thought that that we'd been set up for three weeks, but it was one night. So the lady basically is screaming at us, and we figure something she's saying tomorrow you're out. So when you're when the band gets there and we're trying to rush to do this outreach. That night, I pulled the translator guy aside and said, hey man, we're supposed to be here for three weeks. And he goes and talks to the lady behind the counter and she says, nyet, nyet, nyet. It's not happening. You're out of here. You're not supposed to be here. And so I asked this Russian translator guy, I said, hey, man, what are we supposed to do? And he said, well, as they say in America, every man for himself. Hey, I said, no, they don't say that in America. They don't. That's that's that's a lie. I need some help. But long story short. Um, so they, um, after the concert were sharing with these people on stage, and we have that translator guy, but there's no other translator. Nobody speaks English because it's this way out city. So I said, do you guys have somebody that speaks English? We need help for tomorrow because the band left the next morning. So now we're left with this lady screaming, saying she's going to kick us on the street and we meet this, teacher to be our translator. One of the students that came to the Lord. They said, we know this teacher. So she was a Buddhist background lady. And we said, hey, could you be our translator? We need to talk to you about Jesus and the Bible. And she's like, great. Sure. So we've got a Buddhist translator. And I said, can you talk to the lady behind the counter? And he goes behind the counter and she talks. This lady, she comes back, she says, you're in trouble. And I said, what do you mean? She said, you are not supposed to be here. It's illegal. She says she's kicking you out on the street. And I said, well, can you help us? She said, I talked to her. She said, there's nothing you can do. So maybe you're here tomorrow. Maybe you're not. Uh, if you're here tomorrow, I'm available. And then she walks out. So there we are. Okay, so the three of us say, Spirit of God, what do we do? And I realized, okay, I've got this guy's name on a piece of paper. We have to find Scott Cirone. Somebody has to legally get us to stay here because these students are expecting us that night. So we say, well, okay, is the Spirit of God led us here? Then the Spirit of God is going to let us find Scotts Run. It's a city of four hundred thousand people. So we say, all right, what are we going to do? So I said, let's just walk with the Holy Spirit. So we walk out the front door and we say, alright, Spirit of God, which way do we turn? And we all felt left, so we all go left. We go about three hundred meters down the road. We stop on the next street corner. Which way Lord? We all felt left. We go left in about two hundred meters up that we see this big camera. In those days they had the huge like TV camera things, right. And this big blue, you know, Siberian jacket with the US flag on it. And there's this lady with the camera and she's interviewing somebody and we're walking up like, what is this? And the guy said, this is Captain Scott Cherone of the US Army signing off. And we were like, whoa! Scott it's you, man. And we I mean, we were hugging the guy and he's like, hey, who are you? What are you doing here? You know. Yeah. And, um, I bet in a weird I don't understand. And just. We'll find out in heaven. But the lady with the camera, she was in the, um, army as well. It was his wife. Somehow they had them out there together, and she worked on the comms part of the army. And he was a captain in the army arms inspection guy. Somehow they let them be together. So he's saying, what are y'all doing? Are y'all Jehovah's Witnesses or, you know, he said, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, at that time, we came from a Baptist church, this charismatic Baptist church. So it was really hey, no, sir. We're from a Baptist church in Texas. We're really good people. And, um, we said, this lady wants to kick us out. And he said, I don't think I can do anything. And Scott, the wife that says, Scott, we have to help them. I mean, she could see like we were in our mid twenties. We're desperate. And we said, listen to your wife, buddy. Listen to your wife, man. And he said, okay. He said, I'm meeting with the, um, I'm meeting with the defense minister of the Soviet Union for lunch. Maybe I can do something. We said, oh, you can do something, man. Guarantee you. So the deadline for us to be kicked out of the hotel was three o'clock. And the lady basically said, I'm throwing your bags and you on the street, and we don't have a plane flight to leave for three weeks. So we go up to our room. He said, I'll call you. So we're praying, crying out to God. Phone rings. Uh, Scott Strong tells me to come downstairs. Come downstairs to lobby this huge Russian guy. He says this is, uh, Mr. Shevardnadze, and he said, um, tell him what you want. Said, sir, we've come to your lovely city. We just want to help people know God and talk about American culture. And he's and he's, uh, you know, he said, okay, okay. And he walks over, he talks to the lady, and all of a sudden 60s lady says, you're welcome. Welcome. You come. Welcome to Russia. You come. So that's how we ended up staying for three weeks. And then we sent our first team for a year, and then two years, three years and five years. We had turned it all over to Russians. But wow. Spirit of God. Yeah. So I know I mean, it's such a wild story and there's so many places I want to go with this, but I know church planting has continued to be a major part of who you are and what you do. Yeah. Talk to me about sort of the years after that and how that would be way too much to cover. Sure. Yeah, but but why? Why have you been so passionate about this? What has led you to do it? And then we can kind of see how things develop from there. Sure, sure. You know, um, just like, just like your dad and you and so many others, you know, you come to that point of surrender in life and you say, God, whatever you want to do with my life, I'm good. Like anything, it doesn't matter. And, um, I said, God, is there. Is there anything that you're dreaming about that, that no one's doing? Or is there something you if there's a dream in your heart, dream your dreams through me? And at that time we had a little crew running around. Dream your dreams through us. We were doing inner city ministry, and we were doing a lot of evangelism and some disciple making and stuff, and we really felt like God said, I have a heart for my church to be alive again. I really want my church to be alive. And so I said, well, Lord, we're in. Just teach us how to do church. And so, um, we just started figuring it out. Right. How do you make disciples? How do you do small groups, house, church? How do you multiply that? How do you, you know, salt everywhere you're going? Uh, etc.. And then, um, but it was always attached to the unengaged unreached of the world. So where is Jesus? Not that's where we're going to go. But not just to share the gospel, but then to plant the people of God for the long haul. So we felt that was a dream of God, and we just said yes. So we would, uh, start that first deal in a day, and then we would go over to a place called Irkutsk in Russia. Then we'd go down to Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia, Tashkent, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, uh, Palestinian territories. We we just said, wherever Jesus is, not that's where we're going. So we would train young people in a little training school in the state, and then we would send them to plant churches among the unengaged and unreached. Eventually that would, um, turn into us, uh, heading and doing a couple of things in Europe. And then at the end of, uh, ten years of that, uh, our church blessed us to plant our own church called Antioch Community Church in Waco. At the same time, we had one of our guys say, man, I feel called to the US. I know we're called around the world. Is it okay if I plant a church in the US? And we said yes. If you will train people to reach the unengaged unreached in America, in the world, then we're good with us. Church planting, because then it makes a missional church, not just a, you know, a way station. And so we started our first one in Boston. There's now five churches in the Boston area, but in the US right now, we have about fifty US churches that have come through this discipleship training stuff. And we're in one hundred and ten locations internationally in forty five different countries, doing church planting movements and all that. But it really came from the passion. And I'll pause from that passion where Jesus said, I'll build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it, right? It's not that church is the problem. You know, obviously people are the problem, but God's plan has never changed, even though people have messed everything up. That doesn't change God's plan for his people on display for his glory. Not just individuals, but as a community to be made manifest, to be planted, to be, to multiply and to declare his glory. So yeah. And maybe one little simple phrase we say, God, we want to give what? What can we do that gives you the greatest amount of glory and helps the most amount of people? For us, that's be the church. Multiply the church and, um, work it through. For those who've never heard. What would you say are the challenges that you face in getting the church? I would say especially in a Western context, maybe an American context, to be more than what I think the proclivity of a church can be, which is kind of a social club. It doesn't it doesn't have the outward focus that you keep seeming to draw effectiveness back to reaching the engage, reaching those outside of the church. And again, I'm not I definitely never want to be just the podcast that bashes church. But as someone who's committed your life to creating churches, restoring churches, caring about the church, what are the things that your heart aches for in terms of wanting to see happen in church? Big C church in general? Sure. Yeah. So the way the way I would say it in our personal context is Antioch, which is our little movement. It doesn't work without total surrender to our values, to, you know, make disciples, preach the gospel, you know, impact society. It doesn't work without one hundred percent surrender. So it's kind of like, what is the key turner to activate the church, to make it missional again, to make it a revival center? Life giving. It's dead people, right? It's so we are committed to constantly preaching surrender, trying to authentically live it out and then be in discipleship with people where basically if you were if you were in our church and you were in one of our house churches and, um, I was saying, hey, Ben would love to meet with you, and I'd get a couple other guys in our small group and we'd go through four questions every week. Um, how's your devotional life and how can I help you? Never condemnation. Just. Hey, I gotta get you with Jesus, man, or this thing's not going to work. How's your life? Um. Second question. Any sins you need to confess? Let's just be honest. And I always lead out. Hey, here's my stuff for the week or whatever. Then the third one is. Who are you discipling? Who is discipling somebody else? So what I'm giving you. Who are you giving? And how can I help you do that better? And then the fourth one, which you'll resonate big time with, is who are you sharing the gospel with this week? Who are you contending for? who are you sharing the gospel with in such a way that they can come to know Jesus? It's not a formula, and it's not always that linear, but in the end, those key questions are what keep people surrendered and alive? Like if I'm meeting with Jesus daily and word worship and prayer. I can't be inauthentic, right? There's going to be an encounter with God. If I am confessing sin, then I'm not hiding stuff. Then there's power in my life to give away, to have energy, to actually make disciples and preach the gospel. So in the end, um, when I when people ask me for to consult churches or help people, you know, do all that stuff, I said, I really spend most of my time talking about the surrender issue and the personal devotional life to activate all the missional stuff that we all long for. We hope the church would be. Um, so it's those things that become the catalytic pieces for authenticity, multiplication and reproduction of the life of Jesus. I feel like so much of the walk with Jesus, it's it's never graduating from the basics. And it's absolutely it's these these simple but profound commitments that are so transformative. And I even, you know, I think about my parents who have lived a pretty extraordinary life. And to me, it's been marked by this simple commitments and these thousands of small choices to make seeking God a priority, to be authentic, to never settle, and to continue to be outward focused in terms of preaching the gospel and hard places. Yes. Why? When conceptually it seems so simple? Is it so rare? Yeah. Honestly, you know, there's multiple answers to that based on your context, your culture, your background, all that. But in the end it's we don't model and do. We don't have models doing the very thing that God's called us to do. So you have your parents. They're authentic. So that's why you're authentic. My four adult kids love Jesus. They honoring God. They're doing it because we did it side by side. So if you were in and so if you were to ask me, hey, I want to learn how to seek God. I would invite you over for the next five days. I've done this umpteen times and I'd say, watch me spend time with Jesus. Then I'll give you each part each day. By the end of five days. We've done it together so you feel, taste and touch it. If I want to, to have you looking outward, sharing the gospel, I'll say, let's go together and share the gospel. So the bottom line is, in the end, people are not living out what they're preaching, and they're not inviting people alongside of them because it's really inside out, right? It's just two and three with two and three with two and three that ultimately it's not. It's. So if what I just told you, that illustration of teaching people to spend time with Jesus, if I'll do that, my experience is ninety to ninety five percent. They've got it and they'll keep it. If I preach my guts out, my my reality is twenty percent max. And I think it's great. And I really worked hard at this sermon and I. But I'm kidding myself. If I think more than twenty percent return is going to come from that. So side by side is Jesus's way, and it's actually the answer. But I got to be willing to spend the time and I got to be doing it myself. Yeah, I tell this story probably too often for those that are frequent listeners. But the most profound season of my spiritual development in life was when I was coming out of university. There was that transition from an inherited faith to a personal faith. Yes. Tenuous transition that I think everyone has to go through, even when they grow up in a dynamic spiritual environment. And I came home, I had moved continents three times in my life. I was confused, I was socially isolated, and I came home to New Zealand over the summer and my dad said, how about we do this every day? There's this coffee shop, we're going to walk there and let's pray. Let's seek God together. And very similar to what you're describing with the dangling carrot of amazing New Zealand coffee. At the end of it we would pray. And together he crafted this discipline in me of walking, talking, vulnerability, honesty, commitment, fitting my personality because I'm not a sit still kind of guy. And to your to your point, I have never stopped doing this. I've never stopped doing this. And and it was so profound. And I have listened to hundreds of messages on prayer, but nothing had the impact that my dad and it didn't have to, I think have been my dad, but my dad taking the time to walk with me and physically do that with me. And and yet we're stuck in this, this individualistic view of spiritual formation. How do we how do we get out of that? Why do our models need to change? Yeah, I mean, because I'm a content guy. I like writing. I write. I wrote a book. I like to speak. But, man, if it's not effective, what am I doing? Absolutely, man. So my deal always is. Just make people jealous by starting something that's real. So if you're in a church, get two or three guys and say, we're going to learn how to seek God, we're going to learn how to share the gospel, we're going to do this. And then you multiply and make all of them from the beginning start their own group, because the key is it just becomes counseling or your own spiritual deal. It's just you and three or five people, you become the leader of a little pack. But unless they're investing in somebody else, because we learn when we teach it. So I'm going to botch some of these stats, but it's like we remember ten percent of what we hear, twenty percent of what we read, thirty percent what we hear read and see or something. But we remember eighty five to ninety percent of what we hear, see, read and teach. So when Jesus said, go make disciples, he wasn't just saying what we should do. He was actually helping us learn to be a disciple. So I don't invest in people who aren't already committed to invest in somebody else, because I know they're not going to get everything they need from me, but they're going to learn by teaching somebody else. So I say, don't quit. Quit worrying about the crowds. Quit worrying about the stage. Quit worrying about everything else. Get a little crew. Multiply it. Build a little movement. Inside or outside or around. Whatever you're doing, make people jealous in a beautiful way. Like for the things of God and teach them to do the same. So that's the story of our movement. And when people do that and it becomes a whole community, like I'll say, um, at times we have cool things where people come into our gathering on a Sunday and they say, man, the Spirit of God fell on me. All my chains fell off. That kind of deal. And I would, you know, of course, I'd like to think it has something to do with me. But in the end, they walk into an environment of people that are housing the people who've been with God. It's not just coming from the stage, it's coming from the community. And when you drop somebody in that environment, they can't help but be touched by God. Believe me, I believe in the power of of the group. I mean, we I was just at our Steiger Mission school, so we run a mission school. My mom, Jody, Jodi is leads it. My dad's there. I was just there teaching. And man, we have this eighty hundred dynamic twenty year olds from all over the world that want to reach people that are passionate in worship, and I love that. But I think, like you, my heart is that on Tuesday, I kept using that phrase when nobody's watching and the hype is gone. What then? Yes. What then? When you're not in this beautiful. I mean, it's really impossible almost not to get swept up in the environment of this school. It's so dynamic. Yes, but what happens on Tuesday when the emotions fade? And do you have that, that discipline to pursue God, to establish that intimacy, to be connected to the vine the way he instructs us to? And so I think you're absolutely right. But part of this isn't it tasting the profound beauty of the presence of God. Absolutely. Because even this morning, I was just had one of those nights where I was stressed about, you know, billion whatever things. And I just felt in my time in prayer this morning to reflect on if everything I do fails or if everything I do succeeds. I have access to full joy and satisfaction in you right now. Yes. And it doesn't even matter. Fail or succeed. Yes. I have access to my dad right now. And how much of that? Because that's what brings me back. Not me feeling guilty because you're reinforcing something I think I know is true that I gotta, I gotta, but it's the beauty of my dad. It's being in relationship with him. Talk about how you that role that that's played in your life and how you keep that beautiful presence and desire for that presence alive in your own relationship with God. Man, you're throwing me softballs, bro. This is this is this is what I love. Let me just do a little something right now and everybody listening and just. I'm just going to close my eyes. And God's here. God is here. The Holy Spirit is swirling all around us, comforting us, wooing us to the father. The father is loving us with eyes of desire for us. And Jesus has taken all of our sin. Not just some of it, but all of it for all time, always that we can enjoy this moment in God's presence. Thank you, Holy Spirit, that you are the advocate, the comforter, the counselor, the standby, the helper. Thank you, Lord, that you're here. And even whoever's listening right now that feels far from you. Thank you God that your arm is not too short for the pain and the problems and the challenges, but you have made it available for us to receive mercy and grace right now. I love to do that because the reality is that God is here all the time. He's present. He can't not be present. He's omnipresent. And the Spirit of God is hovering in every room. When somebody says, oh, God was really there. God was there all the time. It could be a bunch of Satanists, God's present. They're not looking to him, but God's present. And so years ago, I started my day, and I've done it now for thirty five plus years. I start every day. Second Corinthians thirteen fourteen. May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God our Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you always. Paul ends the book. But that Trinitarian connection, right? So the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that's where it starts without. So I look at the cross, I have several scriptures I meditate on and I just glory in the cross. Some days I feel like soaring, other days I feel nothing, but I just meditate on the beauty of the completed work of Christ. Then, therefore, I have access to the father. My father's waiting right because of the blood. I have full access. But this last one is, you know, we we often say, hey, you know, what do you believe about the Holy Spirit or whatever? I believe the Holy Spirit is God. That's what I believe about the Holy Spirit. And I actually believe he's here. And I actually believe that God knew I was so weak that he had to put himself inside of me. That's that's that is Unbelievable. God knew I felt like an orphan, and I felt so detached that I could never get there. Reaching for him. So he put himself inside of me so that I would always have him. That. That is. That's it, man. That's the bull's eye. And when you center up. Right. And let God reveal himself, then it's what John said. What we felt, what we've tasted, what we've touched. That's what we communicate to you. Not what we think or not. What somebody else said. Yeah. At the, uh, we had our international gathering a couple of weeks ago and three hundred people all over the world. And, you know, we're creative and ambitious and young and wild and all those things. And yet I was asked to give the closing talk and this the I don't mean it ritual in a negative sense, but the, the thing you led us just through was something I felt similar to lead our mission through, in the sense that I felt like there was a spirit of striving, and I got to do it, and I got to make it happen. And I talk about the five loaves and two fish and how, depending on our proclivities, we can overinflate the value of our five loaves and two fish. So if we're sort of in the business side of things, we can be all about that. But I was saying for us, it might mean that we think our five loaves and two fish are so cool and so creative and so edgy. Yes, and we overinflate the value. And it's still a pitiful offering that only feeds the masses when multiplied. Yes. And that is a beautiful thing, actually, because it means we get to play the role, the only role we're qualified to play. And so I let us in this period of just letting it go. Yeah. And I feel like we almost have to do that. Right. Because we can know that. But we can drift and we start to take on the burden again and it becomes a ritual again. Of course, we have to keep coming back to that place, right? Yeah. So? So my deal, devotional life and all that. I didn't grow up in the church. So once I found that you actually could meet with God, I didn't feel like it was legalism or nobody was making me do it. I actually wanted to know God, and I needed a tool or two to help me get there. So this isn't about legalism. When you want to do it, when you want to know God, then it just becomes discipline as a tool to get to delight, right? To get you addicted, uh, um, to God's presence. And so when I the way I say it is, every day we wake up drifting. I mean, I've been walking with God for forty three years, and I've had bumps along the way, but never backslid or went over the cliff or whatever. But I still know that every day I'm going to wake up drifting. So I put the anchor in so people, you know, like, do I have to spend time with the Lord in the morning? You don't have to. But for me, the world of flesh and the devil is too strong for me. I got to anchor in. Even if it's a short period of time, maybe you're a night guy. Whatever. It doesn't. But if you don't anchor in early. The winds are too strong. Man. In me and outside of me. Yeah. So there's that anchor in piece, and it really gets pragmatic, like, hey, what's your goal in life? Do you want to know God? If you want to know God, you gotta center up on God. And these are the tools he's given. And if you want to abide with him through, I'm just going to abide her. Great. Me too, man. But it's almost impossible for me to abide if I don't anchor in. And so that daily devotional piece, if there's anything that I would help anybody do that is kind of number one through ten. And then we can work on all the practices and all the ambition and all the creativity and, you know, all that good stuff. Yeah, no, for sure. I the terminology for whether for better or for worse, I would use is like the rallying cry, you know that military term? Yes. When vision gets obscured and the mission becomes complicated, or you become separated from your team, so to speak. This is the point I continually come back to. This is where I come back to. And for better or for worse, like you said, I've had my ups and downs, but I have developed a reflex to return yes to the one anchor I know is reliable. And that's intimacy with Jesus. So when I've had times of confusion or doubt or struggle or whatever it is, I tend to just kind of wipe the slate clean and say, okay, tomorrow morning I'm going to rebuild on the one thing I know I can trust. Yes. And like you said, then you make that one through ten and then then the clarity comes and the wisdom you need comes, and the breakthroughs may or may. You know, life is still complicated and it's messy, and it always will be. Um. What do you what do you see as the things that keep people from getting to this place? What are the biggest schemes of the enemy today that are preventing people from finding this joy and intimacy with Jesus like we're describing? I mean, you know, of course there's, you know, the classics, the world, the flesh, the devil, lust, the eyes, lust, the pride of life, all that. And that's one hundred percent true. Um, but, you know, I would, I would say the, um, unwillingness to take the risk. So what I mean by that is I get I am familiar with my patterns of life. I'm familiar with my flesh. I'm familiar, be it good or bad. You know, I'm familiar with things. So I keep going back to the same stuff. And I always challenge people out of, um, Hebrews eleven six where it says, without faith it's impossible to please God, but he who comes to God must believe that he is, and that he's a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. And my deal with that passage is, hey, have you ever given it a try? Like, why don't you just act like God's real for a week? Like, give it a shot. Just act like he's real. And here's some thoughts. You can spend five minutes, ten minutes, fifteen minutes. Whatever. Let's just act like he's real this week and let's see what happens, right? And of course, he's a rewarder of those who seek him, right? And so whatever. Everybody's got a different hang up of why they're not coming to God and disciple or discernment discipleship. That's why it's so important to know somebody's stories. Somebody was abused by a priest. Somebody was, um, you know, traumatic childhood, an orphan. Somebody else is just rebellious. I can't tell without knowing their story. So I always take a few minutes when somebody says, I don't believe in God. And that's actually one of my one of my most interesting ones, right? I don't believe in God. I don't believe I'm an atheist or whatever, agnostic. And um, I and they said, If God is so good, why is there evil in the world or whatever their hang up is? And I always say, well, hey, tell me a little about your story. Tell me about your family. Tell me about your religious background. Invariably, ninety eight percent some male failed them in a in a crazy way that led to their theological or philosophical premise that there is no God because they didn't feel God in the familial, healthy way. They've decided there is no God, and they'll choose other ways to feel. And so I know I'm not answering it in a linear way, but what I would say is, if I don't know your story, I don't know where to bring the grace of God in. I mean, I got tools like you do out, out the wazoo, but I I've really tried to temper myself to pause. Hey, Ben, tell me a little bit about your journey. What's, uh. What? Where are you coming from? Family and all that. And then I try to then challenge them. What if we took a risk on God? What if we just took a step? I know, like Steiger, you guys do. One of the outreaches you do is the prophetic thing where people stand and they say, hey, would you want to hear from God? And at least the guys in Columbia do that. They bring the person over and then, you know, you hear from God, it opens the door, right? Right. That God's real. They feel or experience a God of knowledge. And then but the next step should be all right. Hey, way to go, man. That God that just spoke to you, actually, he's spoken to us like crazy. What if we. What if we just open the Bible somewhere and let's just see what God would say. Then I would take the next step and say, what do you think God's saying about himself to you, to others? And I and I back to our whole side by side thing, find out what the argument is. Right. They're all false. They're all idols. Gods. But for one person, they're so weak. They just need you to empathize and cry with them. Another person they've just been lied to. They need you to tell them the truth. Another person's rebellious and you say, hey, you need to repent. You're arrogant and. But I can't tell until I get into the conversation. But once I do get there, I know where to take them. Mm. Yeah. We started this conversation with you telling some wild stories. And one of the, I would say the core catalyst that God seems to continually use in my life is to put ideas in my head or around me that would stretch me beyond my comfort zone. Yeah. What I call the I have no idea if this is going to work ideas? Yes. And when you hear the stories you described and the way it, you know, interweaved with my history and our history, and it's like, who doesn't want that life? Who doesn't want that kind of glorious, eternally significant adventure that God has called us to? So many people have never experienced that. What role does finding ways to give people opportunities to step beyond their comfort zones, to have those conversations, to go to a city that they have no idea how it's going to work out and find a guy that they can't seem to, they don't have any idea how they're going to find. I mean, I know faith is not necessarily sustained in those stories, but there is something to those that that that breathe life into faith, at least they do for me. Can you talk about that and how we create more of a culture of risk takers and the impact that that might have on faith? Well, again, nobody's going to risk more than you are. So you have to constantly take people with you. That's what Jesus said. Go out two by two, right? Um, that's what we all do outreaches. That's why we they don't may not believe in it at all, but if they watch it, they're eventually going to want to experience it. And then so it's modeling. It's so we do what we call loop ten trips. And truly we just people get enough money to get there. But no money, no contacts. You pray, seek God, figure out how to eat. Figure out how to. You got three days. You know, whether it's a plane flight or a bus trip or whatever in those Luke ten trips and people are freaking out at the thought of it, right? But of course, they're led by people who've done it before, and they say, I don't know what God's going to do either, by the way, but he's committed to provide. So we do some radical stuff like that. But of course, the simplest deal is find somebody who is a risk taker, attach to non-risk takers to them, let them see God at work. And why would you not want to be a part of it? I mean, it's just, uh, it's and like you said, when we talk about the gifts of the spirit or, you know, God moving miraculously and all that is. Uh, in the end, when you are a part of that, you realize this is what I was made for. Like, what a drag to just read my Bible and try to be a better person. I mean, God, I would I would not follow God if that's all you gave me. But the adventure. So I'll tell you. Something happened the other day. I was visiting a friend in San Diego, and, um, I woke up that morning and, um, God spoke a specific phrase to me. Today is all about grace. Okay, that's that could be any day. But it was very specific. So we were going to go visit a friend who's kind of a well-known person, and his wife's name is Grace. And so I told my wife, hey, let's buy flowers for her. I'm going to make sure y'all get time together. It's not going to be about her husband. It's going to be about grace. So spend time. So it happens, right? He she gets a lot of time with grace. We give her flowers. We we have this prophetic word for her. I mean, she's getting just loved by God. And we're sitting at lunch and this mom and a daughter come up to the table to engage us in conversation. And, um, and I said, oh, what's your name? And the mom's name was Linda, and the daughter's name was Grace. And I said, you know what? I was praying this morning and God spoke to the this phrase to me today. It's all about grace and grace. I think it's this, this lady's name's Grace that I'm with, but I think it's about you. God sees, God knows immediate tears. And I just couldn't help. I was did the dad thing and I just went over, hugged her, praying over her. And she was a seventeen year old that just switched schools. She and her mom were just kind of having the conversation. She's about to have a meltdown, doesn't know which way's up, doesn't doesn't know how to find God in this Transition. And God showed up for grace, right? And it wasn't just for our friend. It was for a one who felt distant. And it was just a again, I could share wilder stories, but the intimacy of God and it makes you believe in God again. You know, when you see, oh my goodness, you give one sentence. It's multiple blessings for three or four people that day. And you see a little teenage girl who's struggling with her faith, and somehow we're going to interact with them in some sovereign way. And you're going to love her today if I'm attentive. So that makes me want to get up and hear God today and keep my eyes open, because there's another grace out there. Yes, there's two distinct aspects to that story. One, your sensitivity to the Holy Spirit and not dismissing that as some thought you had. Yes. Yeah. And the second one was being willing to take a risk not only in applying that to the first grace of the story, but then responding to the second one. Yes. How do we listen better? And how do we take that risk? Yeah. Well, again, it obviously it goes back to intimacy with God if I'm if I'm doing that second Corinthians thirteen fourteen, if I'm coming to the grace of God and believe the throne room is open because of the provision of the cross. If I am leaning in and being, letting my father love me, then it's natural. Jesus said, it's to your advantage that I go away, for if I go away, I'll send the spirit. He said, there's many more things I want to say to you, but I can't say them all now. But when he, the spirit of truth, comes, he will reveal to you everything you need to know. So by nature I come to the throne of grace. I receive the father's love. And then I'm so all right. Lord. Holy spirit, what do I need to know? No. And it could be personal, but it's not just personal. It's how we raised our kids. Some our kids are loving Jesus as adults, and they're all married. And we're doing we're doing life together like you guys are. And people say, you know, what did you do? And I said, well, I don't think we love our kids more than anybody else. I'm sure of that. I don't think we love God more than most people, but we were intentional to listen to the Holy Spirit when there was a problem or a challenge or wisdom. We didn't just throw our hands up and say we're helpless because God sent the helper. And so you gotta renew your mind that the Holy Spirit speaks, and then you gotta let him speak, and then you gotta trust that I gotta take some risks to figure out if he's speaking and if I'm humble, like, you know that lady? That girl's name could have not been Grace, right? And and I could say. And she'll say, no, I'm an angel, Linda, you know, and I'll say, hey. Isn't that hilarious? I'm just trying to hear God and help people. Could I pray for you? Somehow? I don't need to, you know, lose my mind because I missed it. If I do it in love and humility. Yeah, yeah. But to be fair, no teenager in twenty twenty five is named Linda. Jimmy. So just just between. Yes, yes. Nothing against the Linda's out there, but there's no Tracy's. Linda's or. Anyway, um, what strikes me about your description of all that is that your relationship with God is real. Yes. In other words, you expect it to be real. You expect to hear. You expect to be led. There's an expectation now. You're not coming. Like, where's my fortune cookie for today? God. But you you know that it's possible. You know, that God desires to speak. And even as it relates to your kids and the faith that they saw modeled by you and your wife again for me. It wasn't that the spectacular moments, though. There were plenty exhibited by my parents. It was the fact that there was no weird religious box that this church stuff fit into. It was just a normal part of life to pray. And I talk about this often again on the pod. But one thing that really stood out to me when I grew up was that my parents, you know, whether it was real or not, always would affirm in me a wisdom like a like a Holy Spirit wisdom. And I remember being eight and my parents coming to me with a problem and saying, Ben, what did what does the Lord say to you about this? Yes. And whether it was real or it was whatever it was, I remember thinking, wow, this God thing is for me too. I have a role to play. God wants to speak to me and through me. And they never created dichotomies. It was never this well, Wednesday night, Sunday morning, and then the rest of the time, it bears no relevance. Yes, it was integrated imperfectly, but integrated. And so to me, I never felt like I came to a point where I had to choose between the real world and my faith, because they were they were inextricably linked in a way where, like the apostles. Where would I go? Like, why would I abandon this beautiful thing that has been the bedrock of my life? Yeah. So I completely, yeah, affirm what you're saying on that, I agree. So. So the deal is I'm not. I didn't sign up to be in the ministry. I didn't choose a vocation. I'm following Jesus. And it just so happens this is what I do most of the time. But I'm. I don't care what I do. I'm walking with the person. And I'm not living by principle. I'm living by person. And so as parents, we messed up all the time. But we repented immediately because we wanted to be right with God, not prove anything to our kids, or prove anything to the world. Or, you know, I, I remember, um, one day I took all the kids when they were little to Walmart and they were just crazy. I mean, they were pulling stuff, yanking stuff, everything else. And I said, I've said everybody on the cart. I pulled around the corner, and I said, I said, look at me. I don't care what I do for a living. We are Christians, we are Christian. We are followers of Jesus. We're not going to do this anymore. And then I said, I repent for being so intense, but I just care about Jesus and us honoring him. I don't care about everybody else thinks, but guys, we got to get it together. So we repented. Well, uh, that's probably the greatest takeaway our kids had. We weren't perfect and and. That's right. But we want to be right with God. I'm not just trying to prove something to myself or to the world. I'm trying to walk with a person. Wow. Well, Again, the best conversations are the ones that go by in a flash. And that has been this for me. Jimmy, I am incredibly humbled by your stories, by your wisdom, by your input. I could listen to this all day. I've been so blessed by this and I know those listening will feel the same. So thank you for despite my butchering of your last name still proceeding with the conversation. You know, you could have just ended it right there and you persevered. And here we are now. But that was awesome. Thank you. I really, really appreciate you. Hey, listen, it is such a joy for me to hear your heart and meet you after just the the little bit of time I have with your parents thirty four years ago. Wild to see you loving Jesus. And it's it's a it's a testimony to them, but it's also a testimony for you picking up the mantle and saying, hey, I've got a race to run. I've been given all these grace gifts through my family. But I'm going to run my race. And it's such a joy because I see you owning it in its fullness and wanting more. And, um, man, such a joy. And hey, I've told the the different leaders that I've met. It's a new day. It's third generation started with your dad. Let's hook up between evangelism, church planting. Let's go change the world together, my friend. I'm in. Like my dad always says. There's no good old days. No, right. It's only what God is doing next. So, yes, let's do it. I'm in. And this has been awesome. I'm gonna just a housekeeping note. I'm going to hit the end of the record here, and then it uploads the file. But for those listening, thank you for checking this out. I know you'll be as encouraged as I was. And let's do this again. Jimmy. I really appreciate it. Seibert. Yes, sir. Bob. Pierce. Yes. That's it. All right.

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