How Did Jesus Handle Broken People - And Why Don't We Do That?

That's the thing. It's a distinction between what is true character forming and what's just Christian culture. You don't need to worry about growth. You need to worry about intimacy, because growth is an extension of intimacy. So Larry Norman came in, he saw our smoking Bible studies and he thought it was terrible. I thought he'd be impressed and he'd go, wow, these guys are just so relaxed. Yeah, the dude swears. But the first place I like to start is you're listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. What's up guys? Welcome to the Provoke and Inspire podcast, following Jesus in a Broken world. My name is Ben Pearce. I'm the host of the show David Pearce. My father is back and we got Luke Greenwood and Chad Johnson all four together. The quad of love. What's up? We like the Power Rangers. Yeah. Chad is the one that's like earth. Oh no, that's Captain Planet. Yeah. Remember that. Really? That's going even further back in time. It's like water or light or whatever. I watched that cartoon earth. Although if you ever closely examined Captain Planet's outfit. Kind of sketchy. Just to say. And why was he blue? I don't know, man. I don't want to talk about it. All right, so today we're going to be talking about a clip that was brought to my attention of the actor Shia LaBeouf, who, if you've been following him, is a very interesting guy. He is on some sort of faith journey. I do think he would describe himself as a Christian, but as you'll see from the clip I'm about to play, he's definitely on a journey, as we all are. You'll see. I'll play the clip. We're gonna discuss the idea of the tension between correction and encouragement in discipleship. The thought experiment that I wanted to present to all of us is if you were assigned. Maybe that sounds like a crass way to describe it. Shia LaBeouf as someone to disciple someone said, hey, this guy's looking for someone to disciple him. How would you go about that? And like, I know that sounds funny, but I that's how I was framing this conversation in my mind because we all have people in our lives who are exploring Christianity. Maybe their brand new baby believers. And because of that, there's a lot of rough edges. But then, of course, we have rough edges. And so what do we do with that? How do we not enable. How do we call things out? It's a little bit of a continuation of our conversation we had about the guy who came to the church as an atheist and experienced prayer, and how the church was then to respond in light of the fact that he didn't necessarily come away with what we would describe as a fully formed view. That was a cool one. It means people should listen to that. Do you want to know something cool? I'm talking to him in two weeks. Whoa. Oh, wait. You're talking with who? In two weeks. The guy that was in the video who said he went to church and experienced. Yeah, yeah. Reached out to him and were like, how'd you find him? Look, we're on Instagram. And we were like, look, we're followers of Jesus. This is the point of our podcast. We actually discussed your video. We want to know more. Like, I'd love to learn, how was your experience? So we just thought, why not reach out to the guy? So he said yes. Did he listen to the episode where we talked about him? I can't remember if we said nice things or not? Did he say he would? He would join the podcast only if David wasn't present. Yeah, yeah. We'll see. What is that supposed to mean? You know exactly what that means. You know exactly. All right, let's play the clip, shall we? Ladies and gentlemen, let's pray right now. Okay. All right. We're going to try right now. So the first step is you got to shut the up, right? And you just got to listen to your thoughts. When you shut up, the first thing that happens is your ego tries to take control of yourself, and you start thinking about the past and the future and all this shit and monologue. And then you get so it takes about five minutes to hear something else, which sounds like something else, which sounds like, for me, loving guidance, which sounds something like John Madden. It's loving and it's like a coach. It's like guidance. It's like, uh, who is Tyson's trainer? Castellano. So you pick a voice and you got like ham, like custom auto and it's something like that. You shut the f up long enough, you're going to hear your voice. Sounds like that weak little bitch that's It's always tripping out about this and that and that and this and that. And then you're gonna hear this other voice is going to sound like tomorrow, and he's going to say something loving with some some guidance attached. So shut the up till you hear that. You got to pipe up when you hear it. Don't fake it either, Andrew. You don't hear we're going to be here all night. Dude, I seem to hear the voice of my own grandfather, like, right away. What did you say? Just saying my name. Dope. Well, not my name, but he used to call me lad, which. Which is, you know, Irish way of saying, like, uh, grandson, nephew, whatever. Can I interpret that for you? Okay, so just for context, because I think it matters here he is on this very popular secular YouTube channel, channel five. And yeah, and the guy's not a believer and he's essentially talking to him about faith, what prayer is. And then they, he guides them through a prayer. And of course, it's, you know, filled with explicatives. And it's interesting in a lot of ways, but it's hard not to be touched by it. And it certainly doesn't feel performative in any way. Of course, the instant reaction of a lot of Christians is to point out all the ways that's ungodly, all the ways that his description of prayer might be kind of off and all the ways that it can be criticized. And yet I don't feel that as an initial response. I don't know why it doesn't evoke that in me. And so first of all, what is your reaction to this clip? And then, as I think is a very powerful thought experiment, how would you interact with someone in your life who describe themselves in some ways as a Christian, but also acted and talked and, and viewed prayer in this way? What would be your. Yeah, what would be your approach and heart towards somebody like him? Well, I would encourage his authenticity, how he's so vulnerable and really wants to hear from the Holy Spirit. I would talk about that in terms of, you know, F-bombs and that kind of thing. I know people who are very religious, except all the movies they watch are full of f bombs, but that doesn't seem to matter. They're very, hey, I've actually really been working on my language lately. Yeah, I know you have, but it's really a hard thing. And of course, I think as you walk with Jesus, he wants you to not use language that's inappropriate. I think that, but again, it's a heart issue. So the long answer to your question that you wanted Luke to answer is, I would really encourage him, and I'm glad that you're going to have him on the podcast. I think that's really cool. No, not Shia LaBeouf. It's coming, it's coming. That's a prophetic word. You gotta own it now. Also invite Shia LaBeouf. All right, that's good. You're not having the buff on Luke that rescue us. I, I, I would pray with him. I love how like, well, as David said, it's authentic and encouraged that. So so I think you start with where somebody's at. You start, okay, let's, let's pray together. And then you start walking through the basics of, of, uh, just sharing what it's like for you. What is it like for you to follow Jesus, um, share stories from your own life of, of what you learned and how it went. A lot of for me, a lot of learning to follow Jesus comes from example and just living it rather than trying to address everything like, hey, you need to do this and you're not supposed to do that. It's got to be a lot more of observing and living life together. And at least that's how how I've experienced it personally, as I've grown, I've seen that most of what I learn is by observing somebody and who's strong with Jesus and who sets an amazing example. I want to I want to follow that. And then the amazing opportunities I've had of walking with people as they grow in their faith. The most effective I've seen is when we literally are living life together and I get to demonstrate something and I don't even have to tell them. I don't have to be like, hey, do this or don't do that. They just see it and then they start living it. And it needs to be a natural thing that the Holy Spirit does in their hearts, I think. Yeah, it's true. I think there's a place also for you need to know when it's time to say, hey, some things probably need to change, but I think when people again, I don't even know if the language thing is the biggest deal actually. But I think that, like you said, Luke, people just naturally will start to. And I should to become more like how Jesus would want me to be. And then the Holy Spirit starts as you study God's word, as you as you spend time in prayer, you start going, you know, I need to change this kind of lifestyle. When I was in the University of Minnesota, we had kind of a, uh, where we would celebrate weakness too much. You know, it was, it was, it was like we had a smoking Bible studies. Did you know about that? Chad does smoking. What? Huh? What was it? That's what I've been looking for this whole time. Yeah. Smoking Bible study. So, you know, I was at the University of Minnesota. Everybody smoked. I mean, I was the only one I think that didn't. And so we had these Bible studies, but everyone smoked like crazy. This one guy, he was really hardcore about it. He would put the ashes to a cigarette in his coffee that he was drinking. He'd take a drag on a cigarette, and then he'd flick it into the coffee and drink his coffee. Which is cool, you know? Yeah. Is it? But but then, Larry Norman, I don't know if you've heard of him, but he's an old seventies guy who was famous back in Nasirh. So Larry Norman came and he saw our smoking Bible studies and he thought it was terrible. I thought he'd be impressed. And he'd go, wow, these guys are just so relaxed. Did Larry Norman really come to one of the one of the amazing. I didn't know that. No, but when I picked him up, I picked him up and all these guys were spoken. He goes, what's wrong with you guys? Why are you doing this? They were all smoking in the car. No. At the. Anyway, the point is, they're all smoking. Don't complicate the story. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. No, but he he was. He thought it was really rightly so. He said, what are you guys doing? You need to. This isn't cool. So I think that there's a. Yes, we accept people and pray with them and everything, but at the same time not celebrate weakness and I don't even know what I said made any sense. I was wondering if, um. Shia LaBeouf has somebody walking with him, because that's something that I think is often hard for, especially people that are like celebrity or whatever. And they come to Jesus. Having somebody really, truly invest in them is probably a hard thing to come by. Like I think of, um, uh, Russell Brand, I, I like listening sometimes to Russell Brand because I just find it fascinating to see like the transformation or the change that's gone on in his life where he, he talks publicly about his faith all the time, but he's still very rough around the edges as well. And I know there are people that have invested in him. I've heard that. Yeah, some some, uh, how is he? Rough. How's he rough around the edges? Because when I've listened to him, he's so straight and so. Yeah. But on who he's interviewing and oh does it about because he'll have people on and it becomes pretty crass. It becomes full of swearing. The thing that is weird for me is I struggle with the notion of, well, how am I going to disciple an imperfect person? Because I always feel very odd, even making that claim in the sense that all of us are imperfect. We maybe in some we've uniquely identified certain over. Well, that's the thing. They represent their. You know what I mean? That's what I struggle with. We think of certain things like, oh, it's the swearing that stands out. So. Oh, that's the problem, right? And it's like, you know, the analogy of you become the product of who you hang out with. So, okay. What identifies you as a Western evangelical Christian? Okay. You don't swear? Uh, you know, you drink maybe in moderation, depending on what denomination you're in. You still watch a whole bunch of bad movies. Uh, you don't really have a super radical faith. You don't really tell people about Jesus very much, but you don't swear. So you know what? That's good. Let's get Shia LaBeouf around us, because then he'll swear less. but he'll still be sort of indoctrinated into all of these other banal cultural iterations of what Western Christianity looks like. So to me, it's like, yeah, the dude swears. But the first place I like to start is we're all imperfect, we're all imperfect. There are layers of pride and greed and selfishness in my heart that don't make me like the person standing on the Finnish side of the shore saying to a guy like Shia LaBeouf, you ain't got it figured out. Now, again, the tension in this conversation is there's. That's not to say there is no truth. There are no standards. We don't need to strive and grow. But I think it's a fair place to start that we sort of arbitrarily define what polished is like is just not swearing polished. Well, I think you're making a point that's really important, which is what's, what is the, is the difference between character being discipled and Christian culture? And, you know, so obviously, I think swearing is, is, is something to dig into and to think about in terms of character and all of that. I'm not saying that. Um, but a lot of the time we're more concerned about that exterior. The cultural aspects, what would be kind of church culture like? You're supposed to fit in and if somebody doesn't fit in because as you've said, they're hanging out with, they've hung out for all their life with in a different environment. And so they don't fit in with us as Christians, Christian culture. And so we're missing the point there. I think that's the thing. It's a distinction between what is true character forming, like Jesus, like character being formed, and what's just Christian culture that we're concerned about. Or it's just about a baseline posture of humility that all Christians should carry with them, which is to say, we don't want to celebrate or glorify weakness. But at the same time, I struggle with even the notion of saying, well, you know, if Shia LaBeouf was more like me, that would be evidence that he has. Has it figured out, or certainly I'm qualified. I don't know, I just struggle with that. Yes, of course, I'd like to think I've grown and God has worked some character into my life. And I'm not saying we're just all, always and forever broken, but I do think we got to at least start with the humility of saying, let's just rid ourselves of this notion that we arbitrarily identify certain things as markers of Christian maturity, when in reality, I think Jesus would probably be like, man, it's good if you don't swear, but it'd be a lot better if you, I don't know, loved people more or were more generous or more bold with the gospel, or decided to pray on live on a live YouTube channel, for example. Yeah. And I mean, I have a friend who's, I won't mention his name. I mean, he uses very colorful language, but he loves people. He's super generous. He helps people all the time, almost too much. I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't look at how we speak in our language and all of that, but I would say he's going to be in front of a lot of people when it comes to in heaven, because he lives like Jesus, actually, and he cares for people. And I'm always, when I'm around him. I'm inspired by that. You know, I want to be I want to have more of that, that Jesus heart in the way that I treat others. Yeah. Yeah. To me, the when I think of the best discipleship relationships in my life and the ones that have had the greatest impact, it's always tied to someone else's ability to see my potential way past where I currently sit. Yeah. So the an example of this, I just very randomly popped up in my feed this morning from a pastor and a spiritual mentor that I really look up to, and it's related to his son. So I'm going to read it fast because it's, it's not, it's actually not that long, but it says in, uh, in twenty fourteen, I went to my second rehab. It was a twelve month program. I completed it in twenty fifteen. I helped start another center. I moved back to Pennsylvania. I was twenty six. I had my own apartment. For the first time in my life. I was living like a mature adult. Within months, I got into two different relationships. They were both unhealthy. In the second one, I fell into fornication. And what started with a cigarette turned into drugs and heavy drinking again. All within two weeks. My conscience was wrecked. I knew right from wrong I felt horrible. One day I was so sick I laid on the bathroom floor and called my dad crying. I said I did it again, I'm so over this, I don't know what to do. I was suicidal, I told him everything. I expected him to say something like, bro again, look at everything good. You're doing some kind of tough love. Instead he got quiet and said, wow, buddy, this is pretty amazing. I said, what are you talking about? Did you not just hear me? He said, yeah, I heard you. You just called your dad crying in a bathroom about messing up and you're admitting everything. But there was a time in your life this was your lifestyle and you avoided me because of it. That doesn't sound like a falling apart, man. To me, that sounds like a changed heart. The fact that it bothers you shows you're not that person anymore. So don't identify yourself with it, buddy. I think it's time to move on. That's like the perfect example of how discipleship has worked wonders in my life where it wasn't judgment. You know, and that's happened even in light of this podcast. Even with some of you on the podcast, if not all of you on the podcast, where, where I have been called out in love for things that I should consider differently. But it's not out of a, you know, anytime it's, it's a, um, anytime you sense that a rebuke or a challenge comes with an ulterior motive. Like if I felt like, you know, if Ben said, Chad, you know, you really need to whatever. But deep down, we both knew what he wanted was more ratings, more reviews more. You know, something for the podcast, like you feel that stuff and you can tell that's not genuinely there, but when it's genuine and it's just coming from someone's heart, like, hey, here's this passage in scripture that says you should not do this. I mean, I wonder if, if, if we just prayed about that. And here's how God challenged me in that way. I see you being the kind of person that someday is going to be able to really speak life into other people who deal with any number of things. So but it's also about rejecting this worldly cultural notion that to love someone means to accept everything about them. And that's a very weird modern notion that I think runs counterintuitive to how we actually function. We want people that, yes, we know that they love us, but one of the ways they demonstrate that love for us is to not be content on our behalf, to allow us to destroy ourselves. So they care enough to say, Ben, I love you, man. Like, but you got to deal with this because this is hurting you. And I talked about this I think a few weeks ago. It's like the difference between a coach and a critic, a coach. You expect a coach to criticize you in a sense, right? To critique you, to adjust your behavior and your actions and the way you're moving. In fact, we would call a coach pretty bad if they're just like, yeah, whatever, just play the game. Doesn't matter. Don't care. Right? And I always think about Jordan Peterson. He, you know, in his only in a way that Jordan Peterson can he describes these transcendent truths through his psychological language, but he talks about the idea that the judge and the Redeemer are the same thing, that by definition, if someone is going to save you, they're going to set a standard that's going to require a judgment, a differentiation between good behavior and bad behavior, a right way of ordering your life in a wrong way of ordering your life. And so if you want to be saved, if you want to grow, if you want to improve, you have to accept a certain level of critique of judgment. I guess I just started in the place I, I did because I just think we need to rid ourselves of this weird notion that these little arbitrary moral markers somehow make us the good, clean people that then can potentially do some rescue work on the dark, evil people. And the fact of the matter is, I don't know. I just feel like we start with humility, and then we actively seek out people who are more mature, who do demonstrate a love for us. And they demonstrate that by calling us to be more like Jesus. Yeah. I mean, I think that's how Jesus did it. Like, there's so many examples in the gospels of how, first of all, he welcomed people as they were. He received them. He received the tax collectors, the Samaritan woman he got, you know, he got into a deep theological conversation with the Samaritan woman, knowing that her life was in a mess. And he didn't start with calling all that out. He started with really having a cool conversation about how to worship God. What's the, you know, the best way to worship God and what what is God's mission in bringing us closer to him? And then, um, but then he goes, you know, go call your husband. Let's, let's, let's move into the next step. And then she's like, I don't have one, you know? So, so you see both those principles you just mentioned in Jesus constantly, you'd welcome people as they were, but then he didn't leave them as they were. He called out change and transformation. And I love how that dad did it. In the story you told Chad how how you know that point of saying, um, that's amazing that you don't that you see it, that you don't want to live like that anymore. So move on. Let's, let's move on to the next thing. Hey, real quick, if provoked, inspire means something to you. Could you do me a favor? Think of one person in your life who needs to hear this conversation. Send them this episode. Tell them why it hit you. That's it. That's how this thing grows. One curious person at a time. It would mean the world to me if you did that. All right, back to the conversation. That strong example of the woman caught in adultery. And Jesus says, who is without sin cast the first stone. And so then they all leave. And Jesus said, so who condemns you? No one. They all left. And he says, and I don't condemn you either. Now go and sin no more. So it was accepting her, showing her that she's loved, but then telling her not enabling her, not saying it's okay, doesn't matter. We're all broken. We all got things that are wrong. He showed that he. She's accepted, she's loved by Jesus. But then he says, now go and sin no more. So I think we don't. We need to accept people, show them that God loves them, but then not enable their sin. Because the wages of sin is death, it's destruction. And so we need to love people enough. Like you were saying, Ben, not to just be someone who's a a bad coach and doesn't tell people what they're doing wrong. So we need both happening at the same time. I think most people don't struggle, I think, with accepting somebody that's in that place of still being raw and figuring things out, like Christians will often get excited about if somebody turns up at a church or in their home group or whatever, oh, this person's not not a Christian yet. And so people, you know, you can often see people talking about, oh, yeah, he doesn't know Jesus. Yeah. You know, and they're kind of excited about it. The problem is, how do you move past that? How do you actually do something to have meaningful input in that person's life? And that's often where people get stuck like that. How do you go deeper? How do you not just go, oh, that's kind of cool. They're coming along to church now. How do you go beyond? How do you actually do intentional discipleship like you guys are describing? And that that I think is a really important one. Ben, your question at the beginning, if, uh, Sheila Buff was with us and we were to walk with him. What would that look like? For me, one of the one of the things as well, in addition to what you're saying, is part of the reason why somebody comes who comes from a non-church background doesn't fit in, is because they're in a different environment. And unless we're willing to start walking with that person in their own environment, it'll be very hard for them to understand what it looks like to follow Jesus. I just always feel like they don't fit in. And I think when we're in our Christian circles, we'll tend to just hang out with people that are same as us. So when somebody new joins in, we'll kind of will be happy about it, but we don't really engage with them deeply. We're just hanging out with our own people. And so we've got to move past that and go to that person and say, hey, um, what are you doing this week? I want to go hang out with you. Let me go see what? And then you get to see them in their own environment, and you get to go and talk about those things and challenge it when it's the reality of a bifurcated world that we live in, which is that we have our secular culture, and then we have our church culture. And when one of the, you know, with one of the raw freaks happens to come between our doors, we're like, oh, isn't that exciting? But if they don't quickly conform to the way we look aesthetically or the way we speak, we're like, well, that doesn't really work. Right? And so it's, it's a reality that we've talked about before that shouldn't really exist. There should be this more fluid church reality where the world and the church, I don't mean that in a compromise sense, but it's not this like closed, rigid, both physical and cultural space where there is more of a real relationship happening with believers and nonbelievers. We often say in this mission that discipleship doesn't happen necessarily at the church. It doesn't start there, but it starts the second you meet a non-believer. Right? Right. And so if someone if by weird circumstances, I was put in Shia LaBeouf's life, step one through ten isn't working on his language, it's becoming a real friend. It's like really loving him. It's inviting him into my world, which hopefully doesn't just look like this weird, stuffy church world he can't relate to. And hopefully he invites me into his world and I become a genuine friend. But I think it's these in-between spaces in between discipleship contexts that don't exist. So we don't know what to do with someone who's in process in that way. Yeah. Well, I mean, often I've said this before on this podcast, but I'll go somewhere and they think I'm not a Christian. Yeah, like a homeless guy. Yeah, I'm a homeless guy or something else. So you get special treatment, free food, and then they'll say things like, so I want to meet with you. Let's meet in the annex or foyer. And I don't even know what that is. So annex the annex. That's when one country takes over another country. So they go, let's I really the annex. So let's meet. Let's meet in the. Okay, the foyer In the foyer. So Elgin and I don't even I don't even know what the foyer is. So then I don't go there. So they think I don't. And so we don't meet. And then I'm like, back to square one again. I have no relationship. I got confirmation of that this week. Um, about the homeless thing. Like if you look like a homeless person, you get free food. I don't know if you guys remember we. I gave an example on the, on one of the episodes that Elijah Young Elijah from Scotland is part of our mission that he he's got that vibe. Wallace Wallace. Wallace yeah, he's got that vibe of, of, of easily looking homeless. And he, he always listens to these episodes. So he, he talked to me this past week. He said, hey, I was at the gym and I was listening to you guys talking about me looking like a homeless person. And he said, I just wanted to say that that is actually true. At one time I went to this burger place and the guy said, you look like you're having a rough time. You can come and get free burgers whenever you want. So it's confirmed. Favor? Favor. See? It works. It works. It's a great way to get around. Feel like you're having a rough time? We. Lad. You want a burger? You. We little homeless rat. Oh, we did a we did an evangelistic action here in the city for Easter. And it was really cool and and I can't explain it all now, but he did this thing where he did kind of look like a homeless guy just beat up on the street and we were throwing trash bags at him and it worked. You'll have to check it out on the Steiger Instagram. But, um, getting getting serious again. I wanted to just say another thing. I was thinking, as you guys are describing that tension of, um, walking with someone and, uh, giving them like being patient and letting them find their way, but then also calling out stuff and bringing transformation and how to do that tension. I feel like one of the challenges we have is the need we feel to control. So when we're walking with someone, we feel like we have to make this thing happen. And I've found it really important to learn that the real heart transformation is something only the Holy Spirit does. And so I can say things. I can teach the Bible, I can point things out or demonstrate showed by example. But ultimately it's the Holy Spirit that does that. And so that can and that will take different amounts of time depending on the person, like different people have just, it just works differently. So I have to do my part, but then I have to let God do the real transformation. And if I'm, if I try to force it, it rarely works. It's like being a parent to a teenager, which I am right now. If you try, if you try forcing things, you get the bad reaction. But if you show by example and you give good counsel and guidance and let them make their own decision, it, they own it and they grow and it becomes something powerful. So I think that's an important thing in discipleship as well. You know, there's another way to look at discipleship. And that is for me, through the lens of addiction recovery and addiction recovery programs. They have something called sponsors and sponsees. And it's an interesting take on discipleship because it's the same concept, just not necessarily with as much of a spiritual or biblical lens, but the idea is helping someone who's a little less mature than you to grow into greater freedom in whatever area of addiction they're dealing with. And I do think it for me, it's actually allowed me and helped me to be better at recognizing discipleship opportunities because of having played both had sponsors and been or am a sponsor to others. But it's what does a sponsor do? Actually, drug, I mean. No, actually, they don't do drugs. Yeah. A sponsor of drugs. They give you money. A sponsor in the in the best form helps you work through the twelve steps. So gives you by, by personal example, ways that you can work through the steps. It's essentially what for Christians, we would say a disciple helps you work through the foundations of Christian faith and the Bible, but by way of having struggled through them themselves. So it's just like, here's my it's not just like, you know, a theological like, well, I, you know, I studied the word so much that I have, I possess all this knowledge and now let me dump it on you. It's, it's just like, here's, here's what I have observed or what I've learned or what I've, where I failed and how God's met me and I can see things. It's like I'm able to recognize aspects of my former self in someone else who God's bringing along, because I have the awareness of who I once was and who he's making me. There are many powerful illustrations or things that we can draw out from that, that I think are very fitting to this conversation. I mean, one is that AA or recovery has its very set context. It has the meetings and it's classic, you know? I don't know if they're always like chairs in a circle or whatever, but they have their context pretty much pretty much. So they have that. But and that's not real life in a sense. It's an important part of it. People come together, they share their stories. It's an important thing. But built into that, there's a recognition that you're going to need more than that. And what you're going to need is for someone to walk alongside of you. So there's a built in assumption that there's someone who's further along in the journey who's going to be attached to you. You can call him at midnight. You can call him at your worst moment. You can call them just after you've messed up there. The person you're supposed to go to. And so it kind of takes it out of the realm of that one particular context into the day to day life. But there's the beautiful recognition of two things. One, they're fallen like you are, right? Because they're always former addicts, if I understand correctly. But there's also a recognition that they're further along. So there's growth, there's progress. And their role is to help you grow. The way they've grown and assumably, they also have a sponsor because there's an understanding that the growth never stops, that the accountability needs to remain your whole life. And so I think there's a lot of beautiful illustrations and the mechanisms of what they've set up. I mean, how great would that be if all of us had that same idea? Like, yes, I got my church, but then I got a strong, mature believer who's further along in their marriage, further along as a parent, further along in their walk with Jesus. And I can turn to them every day in real life. They're going to be able to hear me when I struggle. They're going to be able to give me counsel when I need it. And I just think that's beautiful. That's exactly probably what it should look like. We need mature people in our lives who also have their own journeys that they're on, but that doesn't erode the qualitative moral distinctions. That doesn't relativize truth. But it does mean growth is possible and it should happen, but you need someone else to do it. I think that's beautiful. And actually, most people, especially when they've had a real encounter with Jesus, they're really hungry to grow and to learn. I found that like actually some of the like most amazing stories of transformation, of like radical conversion of somebody coming from a really hard background and now following Jesus, they are super hungry. They're the most hungry to want to learn and want to hear. Actually, in some ways, discipleship is easy in that context, and you just have to be willing to share your life and to say things. And, um, I mean, I'd encourage anyone listening if you have people around you who are new in the faith, then don't hold back. Like talk about what your, what it was like for you growing in your faith and see what questions they have. And. Yeah, I found especially like in the mission, we work with people, usually in their early twenties, that that age demographic, I love working with people at that time in life because they're so very often so open and teachable and wanting to learn and wanting to hear. And I find that the more I spend time with and share, they're actually really thankful for it. Like, wow, thank you for talking to me about this. Nobody's talked to me about this before. So important to do. And someone who's a good discipler, um, is, has humility in them. Like what you're talking about. Chad. They're not acting like they have it all together. No, they they do. I mean, they are more mature and they don't apologize for that. You know, you should grow. You should, you know, Jesus wants to change us and he wants to make us turn us from vessels of, of wood, clay and silver and wants to make his vessels of gold. So he can use this any way he wants to. But in a discipling Relationship. I've been in ones where people act like they got it all together the whole time, and it doesn't help me because I think, well, I don't. So I'm glad they always make the right choice. Or I don't know if you've ever read a like some famous people, they've written books always made the right choice. They've never made a wrong choice and everything has worked out for them. And it doesn't encourage me at all. That, to me, strikes at the heart of what I was very awkwardly trying to communicate in the beginning, which is that we should never graduate past our desire to grow. I think the paradox is that, you know, you said Luke in the beginning or just before that a new believer often really wants to grow. I think the reason for that is because they have a fresh revelation of sinfulness. They haven't a proper understanding of their of what the things in their lives mean. They're they're dirty. They want to get rid of these old clothes, these bad ways. They have a visceral understanding of their desire to grow because they have a clear understanding of what sin actually is. What happens is you become a little clean and you lose that. I think as a lot of as a follower of Jesus, you're your risk is to kind of think, oh, you know, I do swear a little bit less than most people. And I probably watch a few bad movies, but not that many. And you actually lose a revelation of your own sinfulness and in so doing, lose the impetus to want to grow. And then then it really just becomes about kind of getting people to get to your level of moderate cleanliness. I think the more mature you get, the deeper your revelation of sin and you're stronger your desire for growth and repentance. And so it should be a self-reinforcing cycle. It's a paradox. The more you grow, the more you should want to grow. And then that immediately gets rid of that self-righteous attitude when you're discipling others. Paul said that about himself. He said he's the chief of sinners. Exactly. And so if Paul said that about himself, and I have to say that the longer I've walked with God, the more aware I am of how God's mercy on me. And I'm thinking, I can't believe how merciful he is to me. It's like you see layers get pulled away and you see your heart. You think, oh, my heart is decent or whatever. And then God shows you more of your heart. And it's like, oh man, I'm sorry. Jesus, help me to change this. I need to, I need to go deeper. It's like when you're a new Christian, you think, okay, I'm not doing drugs. And I managed to not sleep with my girlfriend this week. Okay, that's a great victory. But that's not really the worst stuff. The worst stuff is my selfishness and my pride and all those things, those kind of obvious sins. You see when you first come to Jesus and you can deal with those kind of obvious sins, maybe, but really selfishness and the pride. Pride. As I walk with God, he starts to show he's a good father, he said. So he doesn't show it to me all at once because it would crush me. But as you keep growing, he shows you more. And that's how your whole life should be. One of the things I've been thinking about a lot is how do we keep turning to Jesus? Like no matter how long we follow him? Our hearts so easy to just get distracted and not run after him like we need. And sometimes new believers have that. They've got that passion. And so, um, you want to encourage that and keep that going. And it's actually, um, demonstrating faithfulness as well in the long run is really important in discipleship too. But I totally agree with what you're saying, David. I think the deeper you go, you find more and more as, what was it I was reading, I was reading something in scripture today or yesterday where it was about just recognizing it's just this is the age old problem of the human heart. We go after other things. We don't go after God. Oh, I know what it was. It was in Luke. And you know that story when, uh, Jesus tells the parable of the man who does a wedding banquet and then people don't go to it and it's like, oh yeah, I can't go because I just bought this field. I have to go check it out. And the other one goes, I can't go because I, I bought some new yokes for my balls. Whatever. I have to go check it out. And it's, and it's just these stupid things that that mean nothing. And then material things. I was thinking, you know what? Materialism isn't actually that new. It's already in that story that Jesus was telling. And the whole idea of the story is God has laid out this amazing banquet, and he's inviting you, and you don't come because you want to go check out the field you just bought. And that's our hearts. It's like that. That's, that's the thing I, I've like seems always to be a struggle for me that I, that I look to other things and I forget, oh, wait, I'm supposed to be running after God. And, uh, discipleship is just a long journey of constantly trying to learn that. Which is why when answering the question, how would you disciple Shia LaBeouf? It's the same question I'm going to be asking myself the rest of my life, which is how do I fall in love with Jesus more? How do I make knowing him the biggest priority of my life? Because even to answer your dread look of saying, how do I continue to do this year after year? How do I carry on? The answer for you is the same for him, which is you don't need to worry about growth. You need to worry about intimacy because growth is an extension of intimacy. So to him, I would say, let's not worry about you having the perfect theology on prayer or whether you use the f bomb. Let's learn what it means to love Jesus. Like, let's learn what it means to really know him and seek him. Because man, that crap's going to fall off and that connection to the vine is going to be everything. Like I often think about the vine and the branch analogy in context of things I want God to do through me. So I'll often pray, you know, I know God that I want to put together the best no longer music tour I can possibly do, but I'm a branch and you're the vine. And apart from you, I can do nothing. And more recently, I've been extending that to everything. It's like I can't even seek you without your help, like I. I can't be a good dad. I can't be a good husband. I can't grow in every area of my life. If all I can do is cling on to you and you have to do the rest in me, you have to do the rest through me. And it's not a cop out, but it's it's a beautifully simple act of obedience he requires of us, which is just stay connected to me and I will produce great fruit in you in all of these different areas. So that's what I would say to you. And that's what I would say to myself and the rest of us as well. Totally. And it's so cool to have that. Like, it's such a privilege to walk with someone in that way and to see change and to be able to be there for someone when they, when they want to learn something new. And it's, it can be really fulfilling, really like faith giving and growing. To walk with people, to spend time with people that don't know Jesus yet. And to start like we talk about in Steiger, like you've already mentioned this, Ben, but the discipleship relationship begins when you first meet them. Um, there's this girl that, uh, came along to one of our Bible studies for the non-religious here in Poland. And, uh, she talked to Tanya, my wife, and, um, and she said I hadn't left my room for three months. She was like, I don't go. I've just been full of anxiety and loneliness in my room. I this is the first meeting or interaction with people that I've gone to for three months. And she was so impacted and moved by it. And she gave her life to Jesus that day. And then she just starts hanging out with our team and coming to everything we do. And she was over at our place. She came to church with us Sunday and then came, came here for lunch after. And she's just trying to figure everything out. And she's clearly gone through a lot in her life. But there's nothing more amazing than working with somebody who's in that place where they want to learn and they want to know Jesus, and they're hungry, and you get to just spend time with them. It's so good. Ben, I think you're muted. Ah, man, I said something funny too. There's no way I'm going to recover from that. You know what I mean? It looked like what you were saying is funny. Yeah. Did it appear as though it was really funny? We were all wondering whether it was our problem. And then suddenly. And then when Chad spoke, I was like, oh, it's not me, it's Ben. Yeah, yeah. Well, speaking of awkward transitions, shall we? David's random story. I was really inspired by what Luke said today about Wallace and how he's learned from the podcast, how he can get food. It's a very practical podcast. We give people very practical advice how to get food. So anyway, a friend of mine said he called up to talk to somebody that he knows. He calls him up and his guys wife answers the phone. And so he says, yeah, hey, is Billy there? His name wasn't Billy, but I'm going to just say Billy. It's a cool name for a story. Yeah, makes the story more funny. So he says Billy there and his wife goes. He's gone to be with the Lord. Oh, no. And so he didn't know there was like he said, there's like four seconds of silence. He says, how long, how long, how long, how long ago was it? Oh, about an hour ago. And what it's like. I'm so sorry. And he, you know, he was thinking. I hope he didn't die of anything serious. That it wasn't like. Because there wasn't. I hope he didn't die of something serious. So they're kind of serious when you die. Well, at least what I mean is not like there wasn't a lot of, like, grovelling and gurgling. Gurgling. So he was thinking that I was saying, oh, I'm so sorry. And he he was thinking, why do I send chocolates or whatever? Um, but it turns out, it turns out he was just praying and having a Bible study. But that's what she meant. But he thought he died. And so if you're looking for like a way, you know, really a, a low effort life hack about how to get stuff from people, right? Just say, just say they, you know, have, have them say you've gone to be with the Lord and then they'll send you. That's what people do. They, they send chocolates when somebody dies and whatever. It's so that's just, I hope that encourages some of us out there today. It does encourage. I am so. Yeah. Are you done? I'm so confused. I'm so confused about that whole story I was vibing. Well, for those of you who endured, you're welcome. A little bit of practical advice to send you off onto your weekend. We love you guys. We would love to know what you think. Provoke and inspire dot org. For emails, you can send us a DM on social media or you can send a letter to write. A letter. I didn't have an address at the top of my head. Send a letter to our address in Wroclaw, Poland. You can send a letter to four Baker Lane. See where it arrives. All right. That's it. Hope you enjoyed this episode. We love you. We'll talk to you next time. Kapow! Oh, man. I instantly regret saying kapow. Nah. It's cool. I liked it.

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