Have We Let Christmas Lose It's Meaning?

You're listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. What's up everyone? Welcome to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. My name is Ben. I'm the host of the show and it's just chad. I was gonna say, Chad, Chad's the one that's not here. It's just Chad. It's just Chad. Today we're gonna all leave, and Chad's gonna take over with some Christmas carols to bless you all. No, it's David to my right, my father. We got Luke below me geographically. Who knows? He could be to the east or west. But who do I look like? Paul. Paul Revere. Uh, we're here together, and, uh, we are hoping Chad will show up at some point. Who knows? Maybe he got caught up in some sort of Christmas shopping fisticuffs. You know, maybe he's. He wants to do a grand entrance. Grand, a grand, a grand entrance. David is suspiciously quiet. I'm just listening. It's in my contract that I'm not doing this without Chad. All right. Well, yeah. So there you go. Uh, it's just, uh, Luke and I coming at you here during the Christmas season. Now, we'll put David down below in the rankings there. All right. Are we treading water here? Because I don't know if Chad's gonna come. He's completely AWOL. No communication. Maybe he's stuck in a drainpipe. Uh, either way, thoughts and prayers. But, David, uh, you got something for us? We're going to do a quick update. Then we're going to do a random story. Uh, and then we're going to talk about traditions. And you might be thinking, what as we approach the Christmas season and yes, we do say Christmas on this podcast because we're not Starbucks. Uh, it's not they don't say they don't say Christmas at Starbucks. It's not politically correct to say Merry Christmas. You have to say, I thought that there was a Happy Holidays. I thought there was like a big backlash against that. And so that's just in the news channels your algorithm feeds you. The rest of the world is still very much in the, uh, you know, really. So is that true with you, Luke? Do you see that algorithm that says you can't say Christmas. I'm in Poland. Everybody's happy to say Poland. Actually, it's actually, um, the birth of the Son of God, right? That Christmas in Polish is literally the birth of the Son of God. So they're greeting you like greetings on the birth of the Son of God. It's very clear. Yeah, but what does Christmas mean? It's got to mean that too, doesn't it? Yeah. No, but that's the point I was making, is that the poles not only have not capitulated to the woke culture built into the very language is this idiomatic phrase. It's not even just Christmas, which to your average secular person, they may not entirely connect the two, but when it's literally the birth of the Son of God, that's awesome. I like that, I like that idiomatically strong. That is. That's cool. Chad's gonna give me the thumbs up when he's ready to rock. Ready to record. You ready? Chad? You're grinning. Are you ready? Are you recording? And now. No no no no no no. Okay, he'll give me the thumbs up. Do you still have trumpet sounds, Ben? Do you still have any of those trumpet sounds? Ladies and gentlemen from Chattanooga, Tennessee. I wish we still a man of many songs and few words. Chad Johnson. There he is. Let's go tromp that next time. Uh, look, let me do what I've been trying to do for the last five minutes, but let me do it properly. We will be talking about traditions. You know, we live in a culture that is obsessed with novelty. We live in a culture where we are moving a million miles an hour, where nothing is really sacred anymore, where we have stripped away the deep meaning behind everything, and it's all just become this superficial, consumer driven, you know, just another thing to do, another event, another reason for some sale and to be bombarded with even more ads. And I really think that ritual and tradition is part of something that God has infused into the fabric of reality for us to slow down and to infuse meaning into things. And so I have a lot to say on this. I know these guys will as well, where it's really important in terms of rest and acknowledging our identity, acknowledging how the world works, who God is. I think it's very, very important. And I know that I have personally felt convicted, that I don't think I have enough meaningful routines and rituals that I would like to have, and that is something that I would like to change, not just for my sake, but for my family and this mission as well. So we'll talk about that. But before we do, David, if you just want to give us a brief health update, because I think for those who have been tracking with this journey, I think it's important you do that. And then we'll do a really awkward transition to David's random story. Uh, and then on to the topic du jour. So, David, go just quickly, I'm getting more tests because I have prostate cancer. And they're anyway, to put it put a short story long, they're doing a Pet scan tomorrow morning just to see if it's all contained in the prostate. And so if you're listening, you can just pray that that you know that the outcome is that. But there's really not much more to tell you right now. And appreciate all you guys and your prayers. I can feel them. There you go. Basically, the course of action is to remove the prostate, and that gives a very, very high percentage chance of this being completely cured, which is awesome. The Pet scan is just a precaution to ensure that this has not spread beyond the prostate. And assuming it hasn't, then, you know, within six to eight weeks of the surgery, which is scheduled for mid January, from what I understand, uh, David should be good to go. Ready to rock. So it's weird to say good news and cancer in the same sentence. But as far as good news and cancer goes, this is good news. And cancer. I mean, truly compared to as we always and continue to say, there are people listening to this right now who, if they are not personally dealing with a diagnosis like this, they are living with someone who is, and the results and the prognosis does not always look like this. So we are grateful for the way that God has answered prayers. And for those of you who have been with us throughout this journey, thank you for your prayers and your messages and the way you've reached out. Um, you know, we've made a commitment to talk about this because ultimately it's just we're for real human beings who for the last ten years have talked about just about every subject under the sun. And it would be very odd, in the light of that, to not bring up the real things that we're dealing with in the midst of that, because ultimately this is about being a real human being, trying to follow Jesus faithfully in the real world. And unfortunately, in the real world, sometimes we deal with sickness, among other difficulties. And so I think that's been a an important feature of this podcast that in many ways, Chad, you have led with vulnerability. And I think that's been something people have really appreciated because we are real every bit as much as those listening to this. So thank you for your prayers. All right. Weird transition. You ready David? I am born ready. David's random story. Not I was bored. I was you just am born ready. I am born ready, born ready, born ready. Present tense. Ongoing. So we have a we have an apartment in Minneapolis. When we're in Minneapolis and in our we have two toilets, not in the same room, but it's two separate. Let me get this straight. In Minneapolis, you have an apartment in Minneapolis. What? Wait. Once I saw what on the two toilets? Note I actually did see a bathroom once with two toilets next to each other. No walls separating. Yeah. Me too. In a restaurant? Yeah, it's called a public bathroom. In a restaurant with. In a restaurant? What restaurant was this? Is this turkey? There's two holes in the ground. No, I love Turkish toilets. Because they clean you the water aerobics kind. Not as good as Japanese, but almost. I think Turkish toilets rock. So, like, I was trying to say, we have two toilets in our apartment and suddenly they stopped working. And so I thought we should probably get a plumber. I didn't want to get a plumber because it's so expensive. Yeah. In fact, I had one just the other day, two days ago, he came and he did a he was here for thirty minutes and he said he wanted to charge me six hundred and fifty zloty. Right. And I complained, I said, that's way too much. Why are you charging me six hundred and fifty. Right. And then he goes, oh, okay. How about four hundred and fifty? Just you got me crazy. And I was like, well, I like that option better. Can I have that option? Like, he's so arbitrary. Really. It's like, seriously, why do I solve for that reason? I didn't want to have a plumber, but Jodie said, you got to get it fixed. So we we had this plumber come and he came, and then they suddenly started working and he didn't do anything. And then he still said, well, you can replace your toilets for sixteen hundred dollars each. And I go, why would I want to replace them? They're both working. And so then he left, charged us one hundred dollars and did nothing. And they just suddenly started working. So I don't know what that means. But when he turned up, I don't know if you guys have seen these reports, but the US government is supposedly holding aliens that they got from outer space or bodies. Have you heard that? No, no, I believe it though I have, but I don't know what how it relates. Well, I just thought somehow the plumbers are working with these aliens and they're overcharging because of that. That's what I was thinking. All right, this is ridiculous. My buttons are stuck, so I can't get to the Davids random sound. So, Luke, can you do the Davids random story sound bite so we can move on David's random story. All right, so as I said in the intro of this podcast Today we're going to be talking about traditions and rhythms and rituals and routines and why, you ask? Well, it's the Christmas season as Luke strokes his phone with an anti-bacterial wipe. And this can be different things for different people. And just from a personal perspective, like, you know, I wouldn't say and David, you can comment on this, I wouldn't say we're the most ritualistic or traditional family. You know, we weren't the kind of family that, you know, you sat at the dinner table at five oh one every single night. We didn't have those types of rhythms, but I at the same time feel like it was always a big priority for us to make things special, to make things meaningful. And to me, when you think of traditions and when you think of rituals, probably a lot of people think some sort of stuffy religious thing or something that their family's made them do. Maybe it was devoid of true interpersonal connection or relationship. And of course it can be that. But at the same time, I think about things in my life where we really took the time to infuse meaning into it, and it wasn't just something we did once, but it was something that we repeated at certain times throughout the year. And it really provided an anchored certain moments with significant meaning. And I think we live in a world in which we've lost so much of that. And we can talk about why that is consumerism, secularization, just being busy, our obsession with novelty and trends or whatever it is. But I think by and large we have lost the meaning of ritual. We've lost the significance of what it does in our lives. And I think that there are real biblical reasons to believe that traditions can be profound moments for us individually, for our entire, you know, our immediate families, but also just for our culture and our our mission at large. I think of really great traditions we have in our own mission or rhythms, things that we repeat and patterns that we perpetuate. So yeah. What do you guys think? Chad, what do you think? What has tradition meant for you when you think of that word, what is it connote and how do we view it as a follower of Jesus trying to live sincerely for him? No, I do think it's surprisingly important. And, uh, something that is maybe like the as you get older, I find it to be grounding, especially around this time of the year where it's like, here's a tradition in the Johnson family household that nobody has ever heard or known every year, instead of getting everybody, you know, usually nicer presents, we just get one nice Lego set that the whole family can then, you know, work on and and build together. And it ends up being basically just David building it. David Pearce, which is a little weird, but I mean, it's it's that's where you've been all this time. Yeah. That was a very uninspiring story, Chad. I mean, I it's because I'm, I was like, when you were like when you were saying it, I almost fell asleep. It's because it's because I'm in. I'm back to like. Chad didn't have time to prepare. Chad super distracted. Don't admit it. I like better when you faked it. That was like. It's like we have this really special tradition and I'm going, okay, this is going to be good. And then he goes, we buy a Lego set, and I'm going that to me. And then, dude, that's so not inspiring. I mean, I could be like, we serve the poor. We it's something you do when you're like in this, like apocalyptic end of the world scenarios when you're just waiting for the radiation to come or something. Anyway, I hope Luke is better. I've got great material here, but I don't. What is it? What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul. Wow. I've never felt so rebuked in all my life. I feel like we're going to be using that quite a lot. That's a good one. But I can remember one of the most significant Christmas traditional things I experienced was before I was married. I was at French Le Bris. So there's no internet, no media, nothing. And I'm in this house up in the mountains. They had a Christmas tree where they had real candles on the tree. Yeah, they do that in the German speaking world. They have these. They have real candles. It's. Yeah, it looks super dangerous. And they had, like, real candles in this wooden house. You know, Le Bris was very formal when it came to things like celebrating. And that was extremely significant, you know, and because there was no distraction, you know, I think today they do everything to distract you from having any contemplative time or tradition. A lot of people are into football here, American football. So they put all the big games, you know, on Christmas or Thanksgiving, anything to take your mind off of anything significant. So I have been rereading Screwtape Letters. And, you know, obviously, for those who are unfamiliar, it's the C.S. Lewis book, where it's a conversation in writing between an apprentice demon and a master demon or an uncle and a nephew. And essentially it's them going back and forth discussing how to tempt and deceive the human beings that they've been assigned. And of course, since the C.S. Lewis brilliance, what it does, among other things, is really give you a sense in terms of the what I think is the reality of the strategic approach the enemy takes in dealing with us. It's not just like I'm a demon. Like there there is a real plan and patterns that are being put into practice and strategies that are being implemented against us. These patterns of the world that I think Paul talks about, these ways that the enemy will not just in a very individual Hollywood sense, attack you, Chad or you Luke, but rather deceive culture or implement an entire approach to culture that would then do the work for them, so to speak. And of course, it's dramatized, but I think that there's a lot of reality to that. And I think to your point, David, one of the effects of a pattern of the world that I think Satan has implemented is what Andy Crouch, you know, one of my, uh, I had him on this podcast. He's an author of The Tech Wise Family, among other things. He calls it the thin ification of everything, that great word, that everything has just become thin and superficial. And like you said, no one, you know, if we're at a family gathering and we're going to do something special, it's people are laughing and half the people are on their phones and the TV gets temporarily muted, and then someone utters an awkward prayer. And then you're right back to your various forms of gluttony and entertainment, you know? And there's no sense of like, let's really lean in to a moment to, to reflect, to to come together, to pause, to say, why are we here and what are we doing? And so again, like you said, David, I have a lot to say on this, but I just want to kind of save some of it for this conversation as it develops. But we just need to resist the schemes of the enemy that wants to make everything thin, make everything meaningless, make everything just about cheap entertainment and novelty. When, like you said, David, some of the most significant moments in my life have come in these ordinary moments that have been infused with the extraordinary through this intentional moments of ritual and tradition. So anyway, opening salvo. Yeah, I was just going to say that I really like how you're connecting ritual tradition with rest. And like, you were talking about how everything's so fast moving and we don't we don't stop and think. I think that's a really important aspect. And as I think about different scriptures around tradition and rituals, I think that's often how the Bible, what the Bible emphasizes as well, which is, um, one of the big reasons for having those kind of rhythms is to make you stop and think more deeply and at the same time rest around that. And and so I've been thinking a bit about this recently, because I often find that coming to the end of the year, you know, it's a combination of stuff, you know, the busyness of the year, the season, like the, uh, the change in, in weather if you're in the northern hemisphere and it gets cold and dark, etc.. Um, so it affects your body, so you get more tired that. So I've been thinking about how getting good rest is not as straightforward as you'd think. Right. So you think like, oh, I'm tired, I need to rest. I should take a day off or I should take some time off. But I feel like today we're forgetting and losing a lot the sense of what it means to truly and deeply rest because we're losing the the meaningfulness of it. So you can have, as you were talking about, you know, shallowness or everything being thin. Um, if if rest doesn't have any meaning or depth to it, it's not real rest. You know, you can kind of just, um, you know, entertainment all day or, you know what, be on Instagram all day or whatever. Um, we end up doing with all the distractions around us, and you can come to the end of that and feel like you didn't really rest. Whereas I think that these rituals, these traditions like Christmas and like having these moments to stop and think about God and to think about deep, meaningful things around that is actually a very rest. It like makes you switch off from just the day to day stuff and go deep and and you need time for that. And I think community around it is also very important. So there's just various things connected there that that is what we need to be able to. There's a paradox, I think, in that resting requires discipline, right. Like I think in our culture, we think of rest as just the absence of doing anything I don't want to do. I think that might have been a double negative, but you know what I mean? Yeah. Like the way I rest is just to do whatever I want to do and do nothing I don't want to do. And in reality, that's not necessarily what rest is. Rest is often doing the right things right, whether that, you know, obviously that means sleeping a lot, but it can also mean feeding yourself spiritually. It can also mean laying down the stresses and worries of the calling that you have and just entrusting those into God's hands by not answering those emails, by not engaging in whatever that work is, and instead saying, I'm going to go on a long walk and seek you. I'm going to spend intentional time with my family. But I think in the specific case of tradition, I also think it means resisting whatever that is in us. And I feel it too, to not want to, um, interrupt kind of the superficiality of the rest of the season. In other words, there can be this tendency. And, David, I feel like I've often heard you kind of speak to this. There can be this tendency just to keep it light, just to keep it chill. Everyone's running around, the kids are having fun, everyone's having fun. And then there's the person that's like, oh, let's go around and say what we're thankful for. And everyone's like, ah, like, or let's take the let's take the family picture. And everyone's like, ah, you know? And yet if you think about what these things represent, it's it's an attempt to infuse something meaningful into what's otherwise just another Friday night. And I think about one particular time when we were at a family gathering, and it was a long time ago, and it was exactly like this. It was Thanksgiving. And I remember you, David, specifically being like, you know, we need to stop and we need to, like, go around and really encourage one another. And, you know, like we so often do in the mission of Steiger, where we'll take the time to pray for one another and speak words of encouragement into one another. And, you know, of course, there was a little bit of that resistance and, and kind of like, do we really need to do this? And it ended up turning into this incredibly emotional, relationally rich, significant moment where all of a sudden and there was this one person in particular that comes to mind who, you know, I would say struggles to open up in this way, really opened up in a profound way. That was quite a breakthrough. And I just remember thinking, that doesn't happen if we don't stop and say no, let's let's discipline ourselves to make something of this moment that is more than just superficial, but in a weird sort of way that requires routine ritual, that requires someone saying, no. Part of our culture is that we stop. We put the phones away, we turn the TV off, and we spend some time, some time doing whatever X, Y, and Z. But it's it's a inviting of the Holy Spirit, and it's a centering our minds on the thing that actually makes this meaningful. And that was such a profound example for me. One of the things that I really appreciated about when we lived in Amsterdam in the Netherlands, they have a whole different way that they look at Celebrate Christmas. So they have on December fifth, they call it Sinterklaas Doc, which means Santa Claus Day. So that's December fifth. That's when you give a present and it's one present and it's a fun day, especially for the kids, and they have songs around it and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, and the adults who have Arrested Development. But Christmas is about Christmas there. I mean, it's a very secular society now, but it's not about any of that. They have the first day of Christmas and the second day of Christmas. And so it makes it easier to make it meaningful because you're not competing with Santa Claus. I know this German guy who tried to fight that. He actually had a television program in where, you know, it was a bit nuts, but he was he went too far, but it was like Bleep Santa Claus. And then he was. Are you sure this wasn't just you with a German? No, it wasn't me. It was a friend of mine. Uh I won't say his name but let's call him. He's like Bleep Santa Claus. But he didn't say Bleep and then he. Wait wait what was that accent was that sounded a tad Jamaican. And then he like beat. He's like beating Santa Claus. Maybe he took it too far. But I do think there's, as Jesus followers, there needs to be a certain bleep Santa Claus thing that we have to do, especially now. I mean, I had that experience in France, you know, in the French Alps because there was no distractions. It was impossible to be distracted. And it was so beautiful and it was so I still think about it. And that was many years ago. But I do think it's possible to do it today. But you're going to have to come up with a plan to separate the two. I don't think it's going to work to have it all in one thing. How am I going to make this meaningful? It's really interesting hearing you share that experience of the experience, because I've seen how that experience, um, how you've kind of carried certain things from that experience because, um, in the Steiger Mission School, there's often been these moments where you enjoyed really wanted to emphasize, um, kind of a ritual or something that is marking with a, there's a solemn marking of something like whether it's the end of the school, um, celebration and like the sending off, um, ceremony and that kind of thing. So I see, I see that and I think that's, I agree, I think that's a really important thing to bring. And we can be kind of this, um, you know, young, dynamic, interesting mission that's kind of all about, you know, being creative and doing crazy things. But then you bring in a solemn ritual into that, or a kind of a ceremony of some kind, and it really marks it. And I think that's very cool. Um, you were sharing about the Netherlands. I was just thinking about over here in Poland, one of the traditions that I found very interesting on Christmas Eve, they it's slightly it's also linked to the Catholic tradition, but they they'll, they'll have a thin wafer that's I guess it's kind of like a communion and they'll break it and they'll give each other a piece. Um, and as they do that, they'll say a wish or a blessing for each other, but they'll also. It's also tradition that it's a moment where you apologize for something. You ask for forgiveness. You, you you say, hey, I'm sorry I did this, or I did that during the year. And which is really powerful, particularly in this culture, because actually, maybe times are changing a bit now, but particularly coming out of communist times, families, generally speaking, had real trouble doing that. Like people would not sit and talk stuff through and problems would build up. And you just kind of let time see if time sorts it out. You know, people, people just wouldn't deal with stuff. And then there was this moment on Christmas Eve where people would say, hey, um, I feel like I mistreated you this year, and I just want to say sorry for that. And and I always found that very interesting thing to do at Christmas. Like one of those, you know, rituals. It's just so important to bring such a deep meaning to it. So I think that's they're really cool things. It just again, it speaks to the level of intentionality and discipline that becomes the the mechanism through which special happens. I think there is a myth that special is something spontaneous that you can't plan for, that it just will. Like a lightning bolt out of the sky. It happens. I often feel this or hear this in an artistic context where people want to be inspired, as if there was just a randomness to it, when in reality the people that are inspired are the ones who are so uninspired so many times that they they have the quantity to also get lucky enough to be inspired. In other words, they write ninety nine bad songs to get the one song that was inspired. They're not just waiting around for it to happen. So there's a there's a level of intentionality and discipline that I think I hear in all of these things. And I think we have a culture and a world that wants to strip all that away and wants to take, okay, we still have the vestiges of these traditions and routines, but let's just try to thin them out, hollow them out as much as possible, as opposed to lean into them. And I just feel like, I don't know that Christmas time is a perfect example of the contrast that can exist and the opportunity that can be had. And I want to challenge myself to say what traditions exist that I need to re-infuse life into. What new traditions would the Holy Spirit give to me that I could have for my family? That would be an extraordinary, powerful moment. I mean, Chad, I know you mentioned the Lego thing and David Morc2, but at the end of the day, like if there's something special that your family rallies around and expects and counts on and becomes, then the vehicle to produce this special moment with you and your family, that's a tradition worth having, right? So I think it's that level of intentionality in these rhythmic ways, because it's a reflection of, I think, of how God created the world to be. I have to break the wafer, chat and say, I'm sorry that I said that about the Lego thing. I already forgave you and I'm sending you a Lego set for Christmas. I like that break the wafer. Hey, bro, I gotta break the wafer, man. I, uh, I stole your camel. As a long standing member and supporter of the Provoke and Inspired podcast, I would humbly request a do over of my opening statement. Now, having been incredibly inspired and moved by each of your stories in the level of preparation that you clearly portray, I did have a thought that is, our family has for many, many moons now been celebrating the gift of advent throughout the holiday season. And that is. And as I heard you talking about spontaneous kind of moments, I've thought, oh, that actually we do enjoy and have enjoyed many moments like that. That involves lighting of candles and putting these cute little cards that that Beth had printed like twenty years ago and reading, you know, different passages and devotionals and, and it's like, it's like a time where we intentionally pause after dinner. I'm not allowed to let the dog out of the crate, because as soon as the dogs out of the crate, then I'm all distracted and it's game over. Uh, and we just talk and work through passages and stuff. Anyway, that's my do over. Thanks, Chad. That was a tad better. That's good, that's good. Yeah, yeah, I went from totally uninspired to, like, moderately. It's kind of like when you're failing a class, you know, and then you work really hard, and you, you, you hand in a few homework assignments, and she bumps you up to a d-minus. I mean, it's fine. No, it's. You know what they say. They say that the the caliber of the people you're around will naturally elevate you. So I just think my problem is that I'm not around. That could be it. Yeah, that could that could be. You're gonna have to break the wafer with me now, bro. I feel hurt by that. I will, I'm very provoked, just not very inspired. One of the other things I was thinking about, um, before doing this was that, you know, a lot of people listening, and it includes me. You know, when you gather around this time around Christmas with family, for a lot of people it means, you know, in your family you're going to have people who are really following Jesus and those who are not, and maybe, maybe some who are actually against it. And that that becomes complicated, especially around Christmas, because you're thinking like, oh, I want to market. I want to, um, maybe stop and read a read something from the Bible and, and remember together and pray. And then you're kind of going, man, what do I do? You know, because this person in our family doesn't want to be around that or even, like, being vocal about it. And, and so, so that's that's a challenge that comes around this time. I don't know if you guys have, have, uh, been in situations like that, even if it's not your own family, if you've been been around that. But I think that's something I always try to think about. Um, and like, I think the way we deal with it in my wider family is we, we try to do that anyway and just, you know, some of the members kind of sit, sit to the side and, and you know, that they're not really into it, but it's an opportunity to, to, to talk about God when a lot of the rest of the year, you find it hard with your family. So I don't know, I was just thinking about that, like how a lot of this for a lot of listeners, that could be something that's a thing and that we should speak into. And I guess my part would be to say, to encourage, to say, hey, use the moment, the opportunity and say, hey, I just want to say something brief about why it's important for me, you know, and then to and then to share something. What I, what I would say is that I think people want meaning like, I think most people recognize on a deep level that they're supposed to be things that matter, that things are supposed to be special, that they want deep relational connection, and that this superficial entertainment version of traditions is not what it was intended to be. And I've been in contexts where for a while we'd been in our New Zealand Christmases, which look for all the the beauty of the snow and the, you know, the coziness of all that. There's something pretty cool about a barbecue on the beach and surfing with your buddies on Christmas Day. I'll just throw that out there as an alternative. And then and then to you guys, do you guys have like because in Brazil they'll still like put fake snow and Father Christmas will be kitschy and they'll do stuff like that. But man, I'm telling you like this, this I'm always like, why is he wearing all those clothes? It's super hot. They do that. But man, there's something there's something cool about the other end of that hemisphere spectrum when it comes to Christmas, too. But, you know, for a while we'd really invite a lot of other people into our Christmas experience. People that didn't have close family around or people even that weren't necessarily strong believers. And I never got the impression that we, in a way, played down to the competition. I know that sounds like a stupid sports analogy, but we didn't lower the meaning of it, the meaningfulness of it to cater to people that might feel awkward about it. If anything, we just said, this is meaningful and we want to invite you into this experience. And I actually think it offered a real profound evangelistic experience. And I think that's a little bit of what I was saying is that if you're feeling like this is important and you want things to matter, then you have to lead in that and you have to not listen to the voices that are, like, resistant to that, make it make it meaningful. You know, and I think in my own context, if if there's a lack of that, then I need to lead in that and I need to say no, this is something that matters. And I want to bring spiritual depth and relational, um, I want to make this relationally rich. So we're going to make this a moment. And, you know, if you're in your own nuclear family, you know, I think as a role as a dad, and this is more broad than this specific context, but I've been feeling this sense of, stuff. You know, I was thinking about my family and I was thinking about the direction things were going in and some things I wanted to change and kind of maybe complaining in my head a little bit. And I almost felt like, God, say, you're the dad if you don't like certain things or the way the culture's going, or you want to see more spiritual life in your family, it's on you, bro. Like, I really I know it sounds weird, but I really felt like God was saying. Then change it. You. I have given you what you need. You want this family to have a Bible study together? Whatever it is, do it. Stop complaining about it and lead it. That is why you're in this position. I really felt that from God. And so I said, okay, if I need if I want certain things to change, that's the responsibility God has given me in this family. And he has given me a creative mind and filled me with. I've been so blessed with teaching and understanding and and tools and discipline and accountability and community. And so I would say to some degree, Lead. Lead. If you're listening to this and say, I'm going to be the one to make this meaningful for my family and put the phones in the dang basket and turn the TV off and separate the two things, as David said, which I think is a really crucial thing to say because I never got where it can go too far is when it becomes religious and, well, we don't have any fun. And, you know, like for some people, tradition becomes a reason. They leave God because it's devoid of relationship. That's not what I ever felt growing up. But what I did know was that there was ice cream and there was seeking God, and there were not the same thing. They were not of the same quality, and they were not put in the same compartment. And that was vital for me to understand. And we had people on various levels of spiritual openness, whatever. But they never came away. Like that was a bummer. You know, that was that was always very meaningful for everybody, no matter where they were in their spiritual life. One hundred percent. And it was like a highlight even. But again, it wasn't presented in this kind of monastic way. It was a it was a celebration of what Christmas is all about, but then also included fun and, you know, all the normal things you think about good food and that kind of thing. But I think that you just have to not listen to it, you know, listen to the voice in your head going, oh, this is going to make people feel uncomfortable. Don't listen to it. Actually. It's going to make it meaningful. It's going to make people walk away from this going, wow, that that was really that really touched me in a way. Maybe I haven't been touched for a while or it made me think about what Christmas really is about. So I would challenge everyone listening to this step through, like Chad would say, step through the awkward and make it meaningful. Nice punch through the awkward. Yeah, I like how I like how Ben compared ice cream and like the substance. I thought that was actually a really cool analogy because it's like you said something like they weren't the same substance or ingredient, I don't know. However, you said it was like a very, uh, a very cool way of looking at it. And I do think it's. Yeah, very. And yet I would like to add that ice cream is not really a traditional Christmas ice cream. What do you mean? I scream, what's ice cream? Ice cream. I thought we were. I thought we were talking about something else. Sorry. Yeah. No, you shouldn't have ice cream at Christmas. That's not right. New Zealand in the summer. Not okay. Poland in the. In the winter. Yeah. That's true. All right, we gotta go. Uh, I have so much editing work to do on this podcast. I better start now to get it out on time. Um, but we love you all. Stay real. Keep it, uh, keep it fresh and keep those traditions alive. Keep it fresh.

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