Have Christians Become Too Nice?

True punk is going to always be nomadic, even politically nomadic, where they're able to say, hey, this is not right about the Democratic Party. But you know what? This is also not right about the Republican Party. Maybe we need to be less afraid of just being clear and open about our faith today and being just authentic and honest. Jesus said, beware when people speak well of you, because that's how they talked about the false prophets. Most of us could use a good dose of punk and a little less. You're listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. What's up everyone? Welcome to the Provoke and Inspire podcast, Finding Jesus in a Broken World. My name is Ben Pierce. I am joined by David Pierce, my dad, and Luke Greenwood. And today we're going to be asking the question, Should Christians stop trying to fit in? Should we reclaim our punk spirit? And the inspiration for the answer is yes. the answer is yes. If you guys are wondering. That's it. Look, you're not supposed to give away the ending. Otherwise, it's like. All right, well, thanks for listening, everyone. Peace. Uh, as Luke said, we just gave you a little bit of a glimpse in terms of our answer. But the inspiration for this conversation comes from a, I want to say an old friend, though I've never met him. His name is Nick cave and he's a very interesting artist, thinker, writer, and he was interviewed and asked a question about his faith. And his answer was awesome. And so I'm going to play this clip because not only was it so great, but it inspired all of what we're about to say and do. So that's what we're going to do. And then we'll end with David's random story. This is a fan favorite. It's a story derived from the life and mind of David. And it will put the put a nice bow on the whole episode, it'll land the plane, and then we can just ride off into the sunset. So that's like, it's like a bulldog, you know, you put a bow around its neck to try to make it look better. Mhm. It's like pig on a lipstick. Oh, wait. It is. It is like pig on a lipstick. All right. Should we play the clip or should we just play it and call it a day? Nick, what would you say to fans of yours who thought you were this badass punk rock guy? And they wanted you to be sticking your middle finger up to everyone, and now you're talking about being a Christian, and it sort of feels like a major vibe shift. I'm sorry, but what better way to do that than be a Christian? All right. Sorry I had to leave the little gesture he gives at the end, because for those watching, he gives it like a shrugged shoulder. What's also interesting is that he's right next to Tom Holland, not the Spider-Man actor, but a friend of this podcast. We've had him on before, wrote a brilliant book called Dominion. And even though he's not a believer, although I don't know his most current beliefs, I've heard it changed. Yeah, yeah, I would believe it has based on the journey he's been on. But he wrote a great book about the impact of the Judeo-Christian worldview on all of society. So Tom Holland, shout out to that amazing man. Was Nick cave, the one that gave that amazing explanation of creation? Yes, because of the letter. So we did an episode once about his website, the Red Hand Files, and there was a letter about AI that he answered describing in an amazing way creation and Genesis and how God is the creator. And I thought it was really, really amazing, actually. Yeah, yeah, he's great. He's great. So guys, Luke, what do you think about Nick's response and the general idea that there's nothing more punk rock? There's nothing more rebellious than to be a Christian today. What do you think of that idea? I like that, and I want to start by saying how much I appreciate Nick and the way he answers stuff. He is the essence of punk rock, I think. Although, okay, I'm going to read to you guys a few things I found because I like every now and again, looking at the Red Hand Files website, okay, here's one. You know, they send in these questions and then which is his website. It's his website. And they'll send in questions and he'll answer sometimes letters and he'll answer letters. So one person writes in and they go, did you ever consider yourself to be a punk rocker? Maybe they were referring to that interview, I don't know, and he just goes, no punk would admit such a thing. And then and then there's this other one goes, is religion not the refuge of the weak? J.L. from Canada says, and he answers, yes. J.L. it is precisely that Christianity in particular. And. And then another one goes, I can't fathom why anyone with even half a brain would believe in God. God, I mean, really. Sam from Chicago says. And so Nick answers. The mighty Christian Wiman claims that ninety five percent of physicists who won the Nobel Prize in the twentieth century believed in a god. Perhaps it is the atheists who use half a brain. And I mean that quite literally. So I mean, that's Nick cave. He is definitely a legend, a punk and sounds like a strong believer right now. So I think it's very cool. I think it's refreshing. And I think for me, the thought it leaves me is maybe we need to be less afraid of just being clear and open about our faith today and, and being just authentic and honest like he was and is. Well, I mean, I think it's clear that following Jesus is goes against mainstream, right? You know, it's like walking up a river. You're going against everything that's trying to pull you down. My first thought about this was, yeah, I think that following Jesus, if you want to use the term punk is the most punk thing you can do. One of my thoughts was, is our podcast punk enough? Are we too careful about not wanting to offend someone? You know, I feel that pressure, if I'm honest on this podcast, that I can't just say what I think because there will be someone out there that's going to be offended or someone in our podcast team here that will be offended. That was a challenge to me, right? I just wonder if we're if we, we say, yeah, it's cool. We believe in this, but are we being that so I don't know, but are we provoking? It's a good moment to bring in a provoking an inspiring enough is my question. Should we sometimes not be so concerned about. Maybe someone will be offended and not to offend people, to offend people, but I think there's a time to, in the right way, stir things up. And Jesus was always doing that, you know, people were always trying to kill him. They're always trying to, you know, except, of course, the people on the street. I actually like that you brought that up because I think it gets to the essence of what being a punk is, where there's value in it and where it just becomes a self-indulgent means to an end. And so we need to parse that out because I do think it matters. This conversation is crucial, and the way I think we should frame this and then get to that accusation, because I'd love to get to that accusation is through a lens of a talk that you give a lot, which is the soldier civilian lens. Because this topic is about identity, it's about how a Jesus follower is supposed to see themselves in culture. And the soldier civilian comparison, I think, is so important because it helps frame both, I think, how we should view ourselves and often how we do view ourselves and why that really matters. So, David, if you could just establish that analogy for us, give context to that analogy, and then we can talk about it, because I think a follower of Jesus as a soldier has a specific mission, which they should not be distracted from. And I think a lot of the things you're referring to are distractions and not the center of the bull's eye. And so it's not just being provocative for provocative sake, because some provocations are a waste of time. They're not the mission. They're not like Jesus either. David, help explain the soldier civilian idea. Second Timothy two three endure hardship like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. And Paul gives all kinds of examples about why we should have that mindset. And then another great example is they challenge Paul and say he's not a real apostle. And so he defends himself because Paul would defend his calling because it was not about him. It was about his part in the body of Christ. So he would defend that. And he said his proof of being apostle was he was beaten. He was shipwrecked. He was he was cold in the desert, cold in the city, chased, you know, stoned, left out at sea. You know, he goes on and on about all these things that he endured and as a proof of being a follower of Jesus. But I would say today that's kind of not the case. I would say that now, if someone would be asked, what is your proof of being a follower of Jesus? Well, I've been blessed financially. Um, everything is going well. You know, I've got this amazing ministry. People in the community love me. I have a good reputation with everyone. I think it's got even switched because Jesus said, beware when people speak well of you, because that's how they talked about the false prophets. So if I'm loved by all, and if everything is is going easy for me, I would say that's an indication that I am not in the right place. Could you just say what that scripture was that you read at the beginning? Second Timothy two three, I believe it is. Second Timothy two three. Endure hardship like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. I want to understand it more deeply. The second Timothy one. I mean, he says it pretty obviously in the verse. It's about hardship. But is that what you're intending to mean when you say be a soldier for Christ? It's about the hardship aspect. Well, Paul goes on to say that if you're a soldier, you don't get entangled in civilian affairs. He uses the example of a boxer, and back then it was hardcore. They had a circle that you had to stand in and they just beat each other with bare fists. I mean, it was like the original Olympic sports, that kind of stuff. And then he talks about the farmer, you know, and. And back in those days, farmers didn't go in. Air conditioned GPS, led tractors. That was hard, physical. That's the only way I farm now. Yeah, that's how I farm, too. I go to the grocery store and buy stuff. The reason why this framing matters so much, and why I've always loved that talk that you gave, David, is because if we are going to understand our place in this world and what to expect and how to function, it starts with knowing who we are. And when you're a soldier versus a civilian, you expect very different things about the world. And the fact is, our expectations about who we are laid against, the reality that we live in, really matters. There's the Chinese proverb that I've brought up on this podcast before that says, it's better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war. So when you look at the difference between civilian expectations and soldier expectations, you'll see very quickly why it matters so much. Because if you're a civilian, you expect to blend in, right? You don't expect to stick out in any sort of unique way. You expect things to be safe and comfortable, and if they're not, something's wrong, right? Right. You expect to feel at home like natural in your environment, and you don't necessarily have a defined mission. You just blend in. You're part of the culture, you're part of the flow. And it makes sense. Now a soldier, intuitively, you recognize how different it is. First of all, you know, you're in enemy territory. You know you're not at home. You expect that it's going to be a fight. You don't expect that it's going to be safe or comfortable. You have a very clear objective and purpose. And so you can see right away that if we are told scripturally by Paul that we're soldiers living in this way, needing to have those expectations, but rather are living like civilians, you can see why it'd be very easy to not react like Nick and just go, oh, well, yeah, that is a vibe shift. I better fall in line. So ultimately, isn't this all about identity? Yeah, it is, but I was just wondering. I like how Nick applies it, how we saw it in that interview? There are some ways people apply that concept that I don't like. And so I'm thinking in my head, how do we get to the right way of applying that passage of be a soldier? And like you guys are saying, it's about focus, it's about facing hardship. It's about recognizing the battle we're in, taking it seriously. All those things really make sense. Sometimes I feel like Christians fall into this thing of being a soldier is is like, I have to be antagonistic. It's like us versus them. And there's an idea of, you know, we have to fight for Christianity in our country kind of thing. You know, it's like the old Christian heavy metal bands, you know? Yeah, doing war Against the heathens. Now there's this got combative and political, right? I mean, we're in this really crazy polarized political context where people are getting all worked up. And I see it like in the UK, of course, it's in the US a lot, but in the UK, there's a movement right now of people that started off going to the streets to share the gospel and are now marching for Jesus more with like a political vibe. And it's like against the Muslim community and it's, let's make the UK Christian again. And this kind of concept that to me, it's like they're being soldiers. They even call themselves an army. Right, right. But, but it's the, it's different to what I think you're saying or to what that verse says. And that's a concern I have about it being a soldier in my view. And I mean, I think it's a lot of biblical basis for what I believe is that it's about sacrifice to bring God's love to people. It's not about how you're describing the people that call themselves Christian soldiers. You know, it's giving everything up for the sake of the gospel. It's about being willing to face danger and hardship so that people can hear how much God loves them. It's not about marching around to bring certain political agendas to people. What you feel in Nick is not a hostility, but almost a resignation to the natural consequences of his convictions. And I think that's what really matters here. First and foremost, we are trying to follow Jesus faithfully. Like actually Jesus, not some politicized version, not some cultural version, but who is Jesus and how does he ask us to live? Our convictions are aligned there. And then when we live those out, that's going to make us inevitably at war with the world, not at war with people. But that's going to make us countercultural. And so it's not so much an intentional hostility, but the natural consequences of staying firm in our convictions. I think one of the great examples of this in a different realm is new school versus old school liberals. Like there's a guy I really think is kind of cool and funny, and his name is Bill Maher. Of course, we don't agree on a lot of things, but he has his convictions, his liberal convictions that he doesn't waver on. But because the left has gone so far past those convictions. He now calls out the left. He calls out the right, but he also calls out the left because he's like, bro, I'm liberal. You are something else. I don't know what you've become. His convictions have stayed firm. And then as culture has shifted around him, he has stayed true to that which has made him enemies on both sides. But he's unwavering. That's what a punk does. They say, I don't care what I'm supposed to do. These are my principles, and regardless of who hates me for them, I'm going to stand on those. And so isn't that really what this is? It's not an intentional fight you're looking for. It's the natural consequences of staying faithful to Jesus in a world that is at odds, always to some degree with the principles of Jesus. Well, it's being faithful, but it's also being authentic and still connected with the world around you. I think that's the thing about Nick that we like that we're that we're like, that resonates with the three of us and with our probably our mission in general. It's like it just resonates because there's a thing we're called to, which is to be present in the secular scene, to be with normal people in society and to not isolate ourselves because you can be, um, you know, faithful and strong for Jesus and be isolated and be, you know, stay in our own world or be combative, like I was saying before. But there's something about the example you just gave. And also then Nick, which is there is a closeness to normal people where they feel like, okay, I can identify with this guy. This guy is interesting. And, and so I think that's, that's a really important aspect of this. How do we, how can I you're saying, Ben, it's about identity. How can I communicate who I am as a follower of Jesus to people around me who are not believers, to be authentic, to be true, to not be worried about trying to please people, but to do it in a way that people can really get. And they're like, wow, that what that guy's saying makes sense. And that's powerful too, I feel like. In fact, the younger generation today are looking for that. I think like they're looking for. Just authentic people who are authentic and honest and are talking in a way that that they can go. Like, yeah, I get that guy. And so then they'll listen to what's being said. Yeah. But again, I think there is a degree of being willing to stand on what you believe is true, regardless of what group that will put you in or out of. I think to get real practical, I think one of the ways we don't do this well as Christians is when we're unwilling to call out our own political allegiances. For example, like a true punk is going to always be nomadic, even politically nomadic, where they're able to say, hey, this is not right about the Democratic Party in the US. But you know what? This is also not right about the Republican Party. A punk isn't concerned about staying within their group. In fact, they're antithetical to that idea, to conformity and to just fitting in. To toeing the party line. And so again, it's not an intentional antagonism, but part of being a follower of Jesus is embracing the nomadic element of that to where if you have to call out even the people in your own lane, the people that you like to be around that are comfortable for you, you do it because you're ultimately a Jesus follower first and you're not there to fit in. That's what the essence of this is, right? And that's one of the ways, I think, where we fail at this. Well, I think Jesus demonstrated how he was, as you said, Ben, he wasn't looking to fit into the world system. I don't belong to this world. And you don't either, he said to those that followed him. And that we're supposed to we're supposed to have a reject the system because the system is evil. And no matter what side you're on, there's all kinds of, like you said, if you want to talk from the American perspective, there's a lot of things about the Republican Party that are totally not godly at all. And and the And the Democratic Party. You know, neither party are right. They're both messed up because they're human inventions. There might be some things of God in them, but but generally we are supposed to have the Jesus culture, not the world's culture. And I think that also means that we are created for a mission. And this means standing up to the things that are not right in society by being Jesus in those situations. But I think that what's often betrayed in a lot of Christian culture is that if you're a good Christian, you're going to be more respectable and part of society. You're going to fit in more. That's actually an indication that you're walking with God, is that the world's going to love you more. And I think I think that's that's something that needs to be challenged. Yeah, yeah. In fact, this is a really good topic for us, I think, because I think it really speaks to the essence of our calling as a mission in Steiger. And, uh, that's probably what attracted me when I first met you. David, was that you had that attitude about going into. I mean, you literally were in, you know, still are. But, you know, back then it was literally a punk band. Now, now it's, you know, changes. Lots of different things happening with NLM today. But you started playing in punk clubs and really speaking into that culture. And when I met you, I think that was one of the things that drew me was you were in that very secular environment. You were very honest and open. You weren't being a secret agent there. You weren't trying to fit in too much. You were. You were like, I'm not going to fit into this. This is there's a lot of things in this culture that I don't like, and I'm going to speak up against or make a difference in. But you were really connecting with people, and people appreciated that open authenticity and the punk attitude around it. And I think that's really created a part of our culture and DNA in our mission today is, is to to hold on to that, to say we're not going to fit in either in the, the, the church world in the sense of, you know, fitting in with what good Christians are supposed to look like and be like and say and do. And we're not going to fit in with the secular scene either. We're going to go and be salt and light in that place and be open and authentic and honest about the gospel. And that defines for us our calling, our mission of going and reaching people. It's going and having the kind of Nick cave attitude we just saw of going into a place and saying, yeah, I'm a Christian. It's the most punk thing you can do. You should try it too, you know, that kind of attitude. So but it doesn't. But it doesn't make an identity out of being a punk either. No, both as a niche, an aesthetic or just a mindset. And that's been so powerful, I think, to you, David, in the way that you've led this over the years is that there's been a healthy malleability to the approach. I think we've been able to stay relevant because we don't lock ourselves into some aesthetic or idea, like we're punks, you know? And so now we're the crusty punks that never can adapt or grow or evolve to culture. What you've always modeled, and I think Luke would agree, is a love for Jesus and a love for people and whatever it takes to reach people, that's what you'll do. And so if that means you're going to adapt or change the non-sacred elements of what we do to be more relevant, then let's go for it. And that's what made Jesus so radical, is that beautiful mix of a unwavering devotion to the truth and an undeniable love for people. And I think as long as we have those things, we're always going to be rejected to a certain degree. But it's not going to be because we're arrogant or prideful. It's going to be because the world is at war against the principles of the value and truth of Jesus. But man, if we love people and we love Jesus, it's going to make us nomads, but it's going to make us fruitful. And that's what we should want in the end. We've talked about this before, but it's speaking the truth with tears in your eyes. Yeah, exactly. And what I always pray before I'm getting ready to speak before a bunch of non-Christians, which is what I love the most. You know, in a club or something like that is. God, give me your heart. Let me see them through your eyes. So when I'm speaking, I see them how you see them. Actually, I should have that attitude if I speak at a church too. You know, I should be. Let me see the people there, how you see them. And I might be saying certain things, but it has a different flavor to it. It's not arrogant, it's not condemning. It's got humility in it. But they feel it. That's how Jesus is. Even the most radical people will respond if we say the truth. With that attitude. I can remember when I was invited. It was actually in Warsaw where I was invited to go to this club where all these intellectual anarchists hung out, and they invited me to speak to them. And I said, why do you want me to speak? You know, you guys have completely different points of view than I do. And they said, because you're not afraid to say what you believe. And we respect that. I mean, look at Nick cave. He's like a legend in the whole scene. Much more than a musician. There's a lot of lame early punk rock bands like the Sex Pistols. They were just like middle schoolers, you know what I mean? He was a real thinker, an influencer. And for him to come to the point where he goes, Jesus is the answer shows you that there are people like Nick who are not come to Jesus yet, who are ready. And then I think in the church, we need to have the right idea about what does it mean to be a Jesus follower? What does it actually look like? Right? I feel like it's also raised a question or a challenge for us in this attempt to, as you put it, Ben. Well, not an attempt, a calling to love people and to love Jesus and to be authentic in those secular places like you were describing. David, there's been a challenge that's come for us as a mission. I wonder what you guys think about it in light of this conversation. So on one hand, we want to communicate in a way that's relevant to the people we're reaching. And our teams are out there in universities, in streets, in cafes, in anarchy clubs or wherever. God opens a door. And we want to communicate in a way they can understand, and we're careful to think about what are their their barriers to Christianity, what are the questions or the things that they see as, as, as problems? We want to be sensitive to that and think about those questions and speak in a relevant way. But we also want to challenge the church and invite the church into this and call especially young believers to say, come on, do something with your faith. Go and be bold. And so we're also mobilizing, recruiting young believers into a missional life and call. And that sometimes creates a challenge because it's who, who are we communicating to? Which audience are we communicating to? And it's like you were saying at the beginning, Ben, it's an identity issue. So some of our teams have taken a stand to say, I'm not going to publicly talk a lot about our Christian, like trying to call Christians and trying to speak to Christians, because then our non-Christian audience doesn't get it. And others have been more like, no, we really need to share the word and identify clearly as a mission to invite people into this mission. Um, because we need to recruit more people for the mission. And do you guys know what I'm talking about? This tension of how do we deal with that? Because that's a question we're trying to figure out in the mission today. I think that's a very good point. And to be clear, you're not suggesting that we don't tell the full gospel message right? When we're saying, for those that you said that are uncomfortable with speaking into church culture, right? I know you're not saying that. So yeah, but I've made a lot of mistakes in this area. I'm a slow learner for sure, but I, I would often just kind of go into a church setting and speak to them like I was speaking in a club and I was. I would wonder why they'd never invite me back again, you know. But it's because I wasn't doing the same thing. When I go to a club, I have to know the people and then. Okay, how would Jesus communicate in this? The truth. You don't change that. You don't water it down. But, um. I made a lot of mistakes. I think I'm better now than I used to be about not being sensitive to my audience. And you need to be sensitive to your audience in the church as well. However, I think if we're too sensitive, the young radicals that you were when you were the age you were when we first met, when you were seventeen and you wanted to to have this kind of radical Jesus. If the Luke Greenwood they see when you're speaking at the church event is too accommodating, the young Luke is not going to want to work with you. And so I think there's a tension there about, yes, we need to understand the audience that we're speaking to, but at the same time, not take the teeth in the right way. Right? Because we want people who are ready to be soldiers to come join us. Right? Not domesticated people who want to have a nice, easy life and go to church on Sunday. The crucial point in all of this, in my opinion, as it relates to the topic more specifically because that feels a little bit of a tangent to me, if I'm honest, about how we communicate to various audiences. To me, the heart of this is that I don't take on a persona that I bring into every context blindly, that I have this attitude that I bring in here, and I have this attitude that I bring in, and I don't care because that's the punk spirit. Punks say things this way and they communicate this way to me. I would like to believe that my allegiance to Jesus and my love for people gives me the sensitivity to understand the context I'm in, and then to communicate in such a way that would resonate with them. I mean, that's just the core of what it means to be a good communicator, is that you care about your audience and that you're not committed a priori to a certain style and a certain messaging, you say. I love people, I love Jesus. Now if that makes me a punk, so be it. But I'm not seeking to be punk. I'm seeking to faithfully follow Jesus and help others to do the same. That's my goal and anything else that would distract from that I discard. But the challenge is it's not always as black and white and as clear. And that's why I think this is super relevant to what we're looking at in Nick cave. And the way he responded to that question and identifying as a Christian, this is super relevant to our audience. Like how do we identify as followers of Jesus today in the world that we live in? And it relates to our mission because that's what we're trying to do as well. And here's the challenge in it. It's not always easy and divided and black and white and clear. It's like, now I'm in a church, I think about how to communicate to a church. Now I'm in this club. Think about what Nick cave did in that interview. I would say his answer is interesting, both for Christians and non-Christians, because Christians in that crowd can go, wow, that's so cool. Like we're doing now. That's so cool. He. He stood up for what he believed. He was clear. He was authentic. Um, he, you know, he showed that. Interviewer. Um, a non-Christian can look at it and go, huh. That's interesting. I've never really thought of Christianity like that. That's a different, you know, that's quite an authentic way of talking about Christianity. And that's why this is a cool example, but that is not easy to do in some way. I'd say what, what that's doing is learning to communicate in a way that is authentic and clear and transparent and actually accessible, both to Christians and non-Christians alike. I don't think a large majority of our audience are professional communicators attempting to figure out who and how to communicate. So I'm just trying to make this more relevant. No, but in that one on one relationships, like here's a simple way of putting it. How do you explain to somebody who you are as a follower of Jesus? I think that we're too complex about it and myself included, I think I have this is where I need to regain a little bit of my punk spirit, and that I think people are less off put by someone who's just authentic. You don't write, you don't just go, you know. I think we go to such extraordinary lengths to try to be so palatable, and I think we rob ourselves of a lot of opportunities, myself included. I'm being honest. I think I'm not clear enough. I think there'd be times where I could just. I resonate with what Nick did because there's a certain degree of like, what do you want out of life? Do you want to spend your whole life worrying about what every little person thinks? Or do you just want to say, I am what I am, whatever that makes me in your eyes? And so I think there is a course correction. I think most people tie themselves into knots to fit in. They don't just boldly stick out. I think there's the few followers of Jesus in the church that everyone kind of feels like is cringey, because they're too direct and they're too clear, and they turn everyone off. They're not necessarily the guy with the cardboard sign, but they're getting there. They're edging towards that. But I think most of us could use a good dose of punk and a little less nuance, a little less worried about what everybody thinks and a little bit more just. This is the truth. I mean, David, you have said this often as it relates to our recent no longer music tours. Young people especially, just want the truth. That's right. They want the clean, straightforward, straight message. They don't necessarily want so much presupposition. They just want to know what's true. At least that's been our experience. This is a challenge for me also, but it's because it's a spiritual battle. So this relates to everyone listening. You know, one thing the devil wants is he wants you to just be quiet. The silent witness. You know what I mean? He's the silent witness. His faith is so deep, you know, he doesn't even have to. It just emanates through the cotton of his trousers. Yes. It's a deep faith. It's aura. It's the twinkle of his eye and the bristle of his teeth. You can just feel it, but somehow not feel it. There is a scent emanating from his navel. It's like when you see a duck and he's he. He always has the same expression. Now we've said it, but you're not sure what to think because you don't know how you're thinking about it. It's like a river beaver gently building his dam out of view. I think, I think what? Look, you guys, I just I know this is so important because it is. I believe everybody listening needs to be able to think this one through because I, you know, I, I agree with what you're saying, Ben, that we just need to not be complicated and just say how it is, but I'll be honest, like the, the way Nic answered that. Interviewer. There's some deep thought that's gone behind that. And he's really worked through, um, where he stands and how to communicate that in a way people can understand today. Because here's the straightforward, simple Christian way of answering that question, you know, oh, aren't you a punk rocker? You know, now you're identifying as a Christian. Isn't that a change of vibe? Aren't you supposed to stick the middle finger up to society? That was the question. The Christian, the common Christian would probably answer that by saying, oh no, no, no, I'm not punk rock anymore. You know, that was that's wrong. That was my past life. And nobody should be sticking the finger up to anybody. You know, that's wrong. I'm a Christian now. You know, that's that's how a Christian might answer. Yeah, but but he didn't. He was like, I can't think of a more punk thing to do than than be a Christian. Right. He thought about it, you know, and so it's, I think this is important to think through like, okay, how can I honestly and in a clear way explain who I am? So when people ask me today what I believe, like in Poland, most people, if I talk about God, they'll think about the Catholic tradition because we're a strong, one of the strongest Catholic countries in the world. And so they'll typically think of me as or anybody who talks about God as a religious person, right? So, so if you say something about faith, they'll be like, oh, are you religious? Right. And, uh, But I don't answer that. Yeah, yeah. I'm religious. I want to think through, how can I say it in a way that will help them understand more clearly? And I'll be like, well, you know, I really follow Jesus. I believe he is who he said he was. And, and I read the Bible and I pray and I have a relationship with God. That's that's how I live it. And that, you know, people gets people thinking a bit more about what it actually means. And so I do think it's important to think through how we're communicating to people. Agreed. But that comes what you just described comes from repetition. And so step one is we have to put ourselves in positions where these conversations even happen. And the problem is, if you are so you're so coded, you're so hidden in what you believe, cryptic, you will never have these conversations. You will never do it wrong, and then you will never learn how to do it right. Part of how you figure out part of how I figured out, part of how David has figured out how to communicate to someone outside of the church without just blowing past them or in a way that they don't get is through trial and error. I mean, I've done it. I've done it bad so many times. I mean, I'm better than I used to be. But I remember I was doing a radio interview in Amsterdam, um, and it was not a Christian station. So what do you believe? You know, I just said, I believe that Jesus died and then he rose again. And then, you know, which is all true. I didn't say it in a way that was helpful or for him to understand. And so I just came off just like this kind of crazy nutbar guy. And I had this amazing opportunity. Now, I would have handled that much differently. But I think like you're saying, Ben, I needed to just do it. You know what I mean? And even because I did it poorly, God, so use it. I'd have people say to me, I heard you screaming on the Dom square. You know, it's a big square in Amsterdam. And I want you to know that I gave my life to Jesus and I was terrible. I made the guy with the sign look, look, calm. There's some pretty calm sign guys to be, but I just, I just did it. And then God would say, come on. And but I think there's a truth to what you're saying, Ben, is we need to, as part of it is like, all right, whatever people. They're going to think I'm stupid, but they already think I'm stupid, so I'm just going to go for it. Well, it's like, it'd be like saying, how can we get people to write good songs? Yeah, start writing a bunch of crap songs first. Don't overcomplicate the creation process. Just start. Put it out there. Learn, grow. Take feedback. Again, if your motivation is a love for Jesus and a genuine love for people, you will grow. You will learn. The analogy I love using is when you're trying to communicate something crucially important to a kid. You don't just blast past them with all of your biggest vocabulary words. You're not trying to change the message if it's really, really important. You think, how do I say this? This isn't not meant to be condescending, but you say, how do I say this? To capture the essence and cut the fluff? Because they're a kid. They're not going to get it. Or, you know, I think about my some of my foreign friends who have the burden of always having to speak to me in English because I don't know their language. And, you know, we colonize the world. Thanks, Luke. Um, but, you know, I don't just speak depending on their level. I don't just speak directly like this. I think through a filter of, okay, how can I say this in a way? Because I want them to get what I'm communicating. I don't just blast past them with all of my fancy words. I want them to understand because I love them and I want them to get what I'm trying to say. In the same way that when we care about someone, it will inevitably affect the way we communicate, because we so care about the essence of our message and that they understand it. But none of that happens without reps, and none of those reps happen without embracing the punk spirit that this is going to be hard. It's going to make me a little weird. And that's okay. Yeah, no, and I do, I do agree with you guys that like one of the biggest takeaways for me from that interview and from this conversation is we should be less worried about just being clear and saying who we are and us being punk about it in that sense. And people. And here's the truth people are way more open today, and society has changed and shifted. And some of the fears that we hang on to as a church today, we need to let go of because people are hungry and thirsty to hear, and they want you to just be authentic. And just even our own mission, I think, is that's part of the, the message to some of our teams is like, guys, stop being so worried about what the non-believers are gonna think, you know, and I'll give you an example like I found. So on like Instagram, for instance, I'll often share a combination of different things. So sometimes I'm playing with my band here in Poland in a club, and we're sharing the gospel and building relationships with non-Christians in, in the rock and hardcore scene over here. At other times I'm speaking in a church or at a conference or whatever, and I'll share a video where there's a message in it where I'm, it's me preaching and it's got a message. I'm talking about the Bible. I'm talking about who Jesus is. And some people will think, oh, you know, you're not being sensitive to all the hardcore guys and bands that are following you on Instagram because you're putting these messages up. That was for a church and they don't, they don't get it. But I found the opposite. I found actually, it's very fun. Like I'll go to a club to do a show and some of the bands that we know and I've got a friendship with will come up to me and say, hey, I, I saw your mission. Steiger was doing something in, in, uh, Saudi Arabia or in Brazil the other week. That's so cool. Tell me more about what you guys do. And hey, I saw you were preaching in some church in Warsaw. What? So do you preach in churches? You know, they're curious. So I have not found it to be a barrier. I found that people are actually very curious about it. And it's okay to just be open and clear to whoever's listening about who we are. And maybe that for me is also the big takeaway of this this conversation. Beautiful. Luke, I agree, I agree. It all could be summarized by your original answer to the very first question. Should Christians embrace the punk spirit? To which you replied yes, yes. At that point, we could have all just gotten burritos and just called it a day. But no, we, we, you know, babbled on for better or for worse. And we hope you loved it. But to get to the real point of this podcast. But Ben, they did love it. The crescendo, the penultimate. All right. You ready David? David's random story. So anyway, I've been, uh, I've discovered that being looking homeless is a tremendous, uh, perk. Because because, uh, I mean, I, at first I was offended by this, you know, because I'd go to a church to speak and they'd think I was a homeless guy that came in off the street and they'd offer you a job. And so that was always kind of a I didn't like it so much. But here's the thing. You see, when they when you come into a church, they don't realize that you're the speaker, but they think you're a homeless guy. First of all, they get really excited because they go, there's a guy coming in, some crazy guy, and he's gonna. He came to our church. You know, they're so they're excited. So the first thing they do is they take you to the refreshment table and they give you food and they're like, oh, would you like some food? And the refreshment table. And then there's this, a bridal shower. And then they'll say, oh, do you want a, do you want a coffee? And if you're really lucky, they'll give you a to go bag. You know, like, oh, a tgb, you know, like, and it has actually, I was at a church in New Zealand. They gave me deodorant and, uh, some soap. I hope that our church, uh, you know, pastors and leaders are listening to this and recognizing that David really likes food. If he goes to speak in your church, give so they give a takeaway bag. But actually in New Zealand, they actually gave me, I got a bag with. We got it. Deodorant, soap. So what I've learned get soup in a bag. So I've never fit in a bag. So I've kind of leaned into this whole being homeless thing and, uh, it's a can be a soap and salvation can really help with your travel budget. So if anyone out there, you know, you're thinking, how can I maybe you're not speaking in the church, which is fine. In fact, it's even better. You'll get more out of it. If you're hungry, why will you get more out of it? See, once they found out I was a speaker, I wasn't treated as well. But did they ever think, whoa, that hobo is speaking? But but here's the thing. A lot of you guys are listening to this and you're going, man, I'm hungry. What do I do? Be like, you're a homeless guy, go to a church and they'll give you food and coffee and maybe even a to go bag. Yeah. Elijah from Scotland should should listen to this. He's often hungry and he also looks like a homeless guy. So that's. So I'm sure this is going to be helpful for a lot of you. I know many of you are trying to figure out, you know, you look at yourself and you're going, man, how could I? Why am I so unattractive? Well, you don't you don't understand. You don't understand that this unattractiveness could give you lots of good food and coffee. It's beneficial, bro. It could get you a lot of things. All right. Thanks, David. Appreciate that. Appreciate the random story. That was, uh, something. Uh, anyway, thank you guys for listening to the podcast. I hope you have joined us in our new initiative to be punks collectively. It's not a fashion, it's a lifestyle. Remember that? Uh, hopefully Chad will be with us next week. I don't know where he is. He's off jet setting around the world probably when is sort of a pyramid scheme venture. He's on the list, man. We're gonna ask. We're gonna see. So if Nick cave joins, that'll be dope. Yeah. Nick is awesome. Nick is awesome. What a guy. So anyway, thank you guys for listening. Send us an email at Provoke and Inspire podcast at org. DM us on social media and keep it real

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