Gambling Is Everywhere. What Would Jesus Say About It?

What if the biggest problem in our culture was not porn or alcohol, but gambling? Maybe you haven't thought about this topic a lot, but it is everywhere. It is exploding. Our world is constantly being rocked with betting related scandals, and because of the smartphone and the torrent of advertising, gambling is now everywhere. And this is devastating. So many lives. And I think as followers of Jesus, we can't really sit on the sidelines and not take this subject seriously. For many of you, this is probably very personal. And you know someone in your life who is struggling with a gambling addiction. And so in this episode, myself, Chad, David and Luke, we all wrestle with what the Bible actually says about gambling and why people are attracted to it in the first place. I think this has been a subject we've been far too silent on, and I think that needs to change. So hopefully this can be a small step in the right direction and it can provoke and inspire you to think more biblically about gambling and the effects it has on our world. Ultimately, all of these conversations are part of the missions organization called Steiger, and we reach those who would not walk into a church, young people who have grown up in the lives of secular humanism. And this has left them with a meaning and loneliness crisis. And in order to medicate, they often look to things like pornography, alcohol, drugs and gambling to fill that void. So this is an absolutely relevant conversation for everyone, anywhere, and especially those in our mission. I would highly recommend that you check out Steiger. I think you'll be blown away by what God is doing through this mission, and you will also discover that there is a role for you to play in it. If you go to Steiger org. You can find out more information. And lastly, please share this episode because as I said, this topic needs to be talked about more. And maybe the first step is that you simply engage in this conversation and share it with somebody else. All right, that's it. Thank you for your support. Thank you for listening. I hope you are inspired and challenged by our conversation about gambling and how followers of Jesus should respond. You're listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. What's up everyone? Welcome to the Provoke and Inspire podcast, where we learn how to follow Jesus in a post-Christian world. And David is holding some pose. And for those watching, and I hope many of you watch six seven. Oh, wow. No way. No. Please don't. I actually have the demographic that says that nonsense. You want to know a funny story about six seven? I'm going to tell you guys anyway, so we were trying to rush out of the door in my house. I got a nine year old, a seven year old and a five year old. And so they're especially the older two are right in that demographic and the old alpha brain rot demographic and, uh, wow, wow. That's a bit negative, don't you think? That's exactly what it is. And they would proudly wear that label. And anyway, so we're like rushing out of the door and it's always a stressful time. Like, you know, get your shoes on, zip up your coat. Did anyone have a snack? You know, just trying to get out of the door. Go get your pan. And that's just Courtney talking to me. Give him his pants back. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Give him his pants back. And so I'm like, we're about to get out the door. And then Macklin comes running back in and he's like, dad, I need a snack. And I start getting real angry, you know, because I'm like, by then, I've lost all my patience, and I'm like, dude, I need a snack. If you had just not been so distracted playing, you would have had like six or seven more minutes to do that. And I pause and he pauses. He looks at me sideways and just goes, which if you don't know the six seven thing, you do those hands to go with it. And I just exploded with rage. It was so annoying. But I was also quite impressed because, like the timing of the whole thing and just the cheekiness, like he didn't just come out straight and go six seven. He just kind of did a little like ah, ah. You see what happened there? Yeah. Anyway move on. Welcome to the podcast. I'm excited about today because we're all together, not physically as we were a few weeks ago. But for those who did check out the last episode, there's this really beautiful reunion, uh, where Chad has now re-entered the building in all senses of the word. He was with us physically, but one could argue that there was some of the other dimensions of himself that weren't here. There were no drugs involved. But, yeah, I was definitely checked out, that's for sure. So now he's fully here. Uh, and in some ways it feels great. Like we're all together. It feels like a fresh new start. Uh, and I'm excited in other ways. It doesn't feel so great, though, because you said in some ways, which implies there are other ways there was a comedic element to how checked out you were. You know, we all benefited from it on some levels, at least from like a comparative perspective. It's like, if I had a bad day on the pod, it was likely to have been better than Chad. That's true. When things were really going bad, I'd go, yeah, but I'm not Chad, I'd say. And then I'd feel better. Yeah. Hey, we got to do something. I was told I was like, look, if you have a title that's about gambling and then you don't talk about gambling at all for five minutes. The YouTube algorithms are going to punish you because people want immediate payoff, which, given the topic is quite fitting because gambling is about that instant gratification. Dopamine hit immediate. So if you're here and you're like, bruh, I was here to hear about gambling, and now y'all talk about who knows what. Six seven David's red face. Chad's checked out nature. So look, we are going to talk about gambling. And this is one of those things where, yeah, it can seem like kind of a perennial topic, like gambling or drinking or whatever, but we are living, I think, in a very, very unique time as it relates to gambling. And it's kind of one of those frog in a boiling pot of water kind of things where the temperature has just been turned up and up and up so gradually, but now so intensely, that I think we're all boiling in the waters of gambling and we don't even really know it. Just as an experiment thought okay, as I'm driving my son to school, how many ads am I going to have about gambling? There were eight different references to gambling or ads specifically related to gambling. On the twenty minute drive from my house to my kids school. America is crazy. Well, that was the first time I just, like, thought I would pay attention to it. Now, some of it was real casual. It was embodied within the sports radio talk show that I listened to. And then a lot of it was much more direct in the form of ads. But the the fact of the matter is, gambling, of course, has been around forever and ever. But the smartphone, similar to pornography, has amplified it to a level of accessibility that has just gone bonkers. I mean, we are living in an age where people are constantly being enticed to gamble, which preys on all sorts of psychological weaknesses that they have. These are being programmed in such a way that is just so pernicious, so irresistible. And it's destroying lives. And really, I think the numbers are lagging behind the reality. I think that we don't even really know how devastating this is, how many lives are being ruined. And I want to talk today with you three about this topic in general, what the Bible says about gambling and what do we do about it? Because I think as we I think we all probably had a similar experience where as we started to look into it, you're like, whoa, like, this is a really, really big deal. We need to talk about that. So fear not, it will get talked about. Now you've been rewarded. There you go YouTube. All right David, you ready? David's random story. Yeah. So anyway, just a brief update on Nigel. I know you don't get a pre random random story. Love, Nigel. It's never brief. Nigel. You know he's undocumented in Detroit. He's from New Zealand. Wow. So he was picked up. Yeah Beyond by ice, and he was sent to Sudan. The algorithm. So anyway, I just so he's still okay. Just briefly, he just said I'm still unable to move into an indoor facility. But he said it's not so bad because it feels like Detroit in the summer. Hey, you know what's really cool? Gets what he deserves. StreamYard has given me this new ability to put a a QR code on the screen, so I just made one for Nigel right there in the corner. It's. Where's Nigel? It won't work. It's just a random QR code, and I just wanted to point that out, but we might build it into something. He's. Apparently he's in Germany or something. Ah, get on with it. Well, that's where he is. All right, so I was invited to speak, uh, some years ago in a very well known Christian university in Tulsa. Um, have you ever been to Tulsa? It's one of the places I've actively avoided. Yeah. Anyway, it was. I felt really sad for everyone there. What's Luke looking at? Uh, texting people while David tells his random story. I'm not. I'm looking up a Bible verse. David. Don't worry. I do find it's very, very, uh. What's the word I'm looking for? It's it's like being on the bus on the way to work. You get a lot done during David's random story. Do you want me to give the random story, or are you sabotaging it so much you don't want me to do it? Chad, what do you think? No. We love sabotage. All right, you know what? We need to get this thing going. Yes. Good. Finally. Sound bites. We need more sound bites. Bring all. That's probably enough. I can't get copyright. So I was at this big Christian university, and I was speaking in the chapel, and I go in there and they said, you can't speak in the chapel. And I said, why not? They said, because you have a mustache. Wait wait wait wait wait wait, you had a mustache. Yep. And there's the. And I kind of had, like, a deliverance beard. The band, um, deliverance ministry, you know. That's what I thought too. I was so confused. So? So they said, you can't be on campus when you have that because they had like a no facial hair policy. That's cool. I know, I know. And so I said, but I'm speaking in the chapel, you know, what do you want me to do? I'm speaking in the chapel. It was a wrenching experience. And they said, well, okay, we'll give you a special permission. So I had to wear this thing around my neck like a backstage pass thing. That said, I had special permission to have a mustache in a deliverance beard. Deliverance and the campus. So that was a bad thing when I was at this university, uh, having this mustache, you know, that was not a positive thing. But I have also noticed that dreads are mostly a positive thing for me because like, especially when you go to, you know, to like a church and everything, everyone is especially nice to you. Yeah. If you want people to show their love to you, these stories are ridiculous. There's no substance. That's what it's called. What do you mean? That's the whole point of it. This literally happened to me once. I turned up at a church to preach after cutting my dreads, and the pastor went up front before I spoke and apologized to the church that he had advertised, that somebody with dreadlocks was going to preach the next Sunday. And when I turned up, I didn't have dreadlocks. So he went up front and said, guys, I promise he used to. Yeah, you get better treatment in churches if you have dreads. Yeah. It's true, it's true. Okay. If it's random story. All right. There's plenty of that. All right. Let's move on. Let's get on to the thing I promised we'd do, which is talk about gambling. Uh, let me just set this up with a little bit of context, uh, because I think it's important for those who might think, why this? Why now again, I can't speak for Europe or the rest of the world, but for the context I'm in, in the US, it's becoming so common. As I said, I had eight different points of advertising in a twenty minute car ride, whether it was sort of casually embodied by the hosts of the sports radio show, which of course, sports is going to lean more in that direction, because sports gambling is one of the biggest drivers of having taken it to another stratosphere. Um, but it truly is everywhere. Uh, and also, it's been put into the forefront of everyone's minds because of these crazy scandals. Now, there's always been betting scandals, which in and of itself speaks to some of the pernicious fruit that comes out of it, that people end up getting stuck in these rigs to cheat because when obviously there's so much money involved, the incentive to cheat goes very, very high. But just very recently, and this is very American centric, so I apologize. But, uh, two baseball pitchers were recently accused of throwing specific pitches and tipping off bettors. Nearly half a million dollars was made, which is insane because these pictures were making millions of dollars every single year. kind of shows the insatiable nature of greed. The one prior to that was in the NBA, where one of the the Portland coach, he was a former player, Chauncey Billups, and a player for the Miami Heat, Terry Rozier. They were arrested in this massive scandal that involved tipping bettors and the mob was involved and these illegal poker games. It was just crazy, this huge gambling sting. And then in Turkey, I don't know why this one makes me laugh. It's probably not that funny, but more than a thousand players in over a hundred referees were banned for betting on their own matches. And so many guys were banned that a ton of Turkish teams did not even have enough eligible players to field a team anymore, because so many of their players were involved in this betting scandal. So that makes it certainly more global. And so those sort of dramatic stories aside, the fact of the matter is, globally, the gambling industry is worth half a trillion dollars. More than eighty million people meet the criteria for addiction. And then, of course, you think about the cascading impact of addiction in general, but gambling tends to really tie up all of your family, all of your friends, as people have to try to borrow more and steal more in order to continue the habit. Teens are the fastest growing group of those who are addicted to gambling. It's become normalized. There's aggressive advertising constantly bombarding us. And so I thought it was time to talk about it, I think. Ben, did you say teens are the biggest demographic? Yes, teens. And they're often incorporating gamification and betting style gaming within these kids games, even like Roblox and other things like that, where essentially they're hooking them early by creating a gambling culture within the games that kids preteens are already addicted to. So they're sort of grooming them essentially for the real thing once they become eligible to do that. So anyway, what do you guys think? What do we do in light of what is a very obvious global crisis? I it reminds me it's a little tangential, but it's when I was with Jody in Vegas and Aaron and Ben came, we stayed in the Venetian Hotel and you guys stayed. I like how you're saying that. As if Chad and Luke are like, oh yeah, yeah, good times. I just wonder if that was before or after you lost all the money. This is before Aaron and Ben were married, so maybe we should let Luke start. This is why I want to hear the end of day. You don't want me to finish this story? Having David start is like trying to start a lawn mower that hasn't been sitting out all winter talking about. It's like trying to talk. You're constantly interrupting me. What am I supposed you're interrupting yourself? So I said, you're gonna get. We're gonna put you in a nice hotel. So Jody and I stayed in the Venetian Hotel, which is this really amazing hotel. And we put Aaron and Ben in the Tropicana, which was this really sleazy. Put them in a different hotel, and, uh. Yeah, I love that. Okay. Yeah. And then we would just meet during the day, and it was a lot of fun. So Aaron and Ben took some money out of the water fountains to gamble, you know? Wow. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. Classic move. Because that kind of makes it okay, though, in my opinion, because, like, yeah, the singer throwing money in a fountain. I mean, that's much better use of that money. You're throwing it away either way. They did the slot machines and they won some money. And so we used the money to buy ride passes on the like the rides they have in Vegas. We got it. That was at New York. New York like like the roller coaster. Yeah. All this stuff. So then there's these. Why does David's internet sound like he's in Uzbekistan? It's so annoying. He's in the room next to me in the same studio. Would you just let me talk? I don't want you to talk. Your quality sucks. Thank you. Your quality sucks. So then that's a great t shirt. I like that you're quality. That would be a great t shirt. Going out with good t shirts. Go gambling. So then? So then. So, Ben, we have to go to this roller coaster that goes off this skyscraper kind of thing. This is a random story. No it's not. How is it not a random story? It's by definition, you got the money from. We got the money from gambling. All right, Luke, we'll start right here. Did that help anyone? Was that helpful? Yes. It helped. So? So we found one. Go ahead. Luke. Which is if the money was already thrown away in a fountain, it's okay to gamble with. But outside of that, I mean, it. It's, uh. It's interesting because, Ben, you brought the topic to us and, you know, suggested it. And I'd actually been thinking about it during the past week because it had come up in a few different things I'd been listening to. I'd been listening to a podcast, and, uh, there was a Joe Rogan interview with Russell Crowe and the actor, and he was talking about it, and it was very interesting because they had different opinions on it. So Joe was like saying, you know, we should be free. You know, people should have the freedom to to gamble if they want. And I wouldn't want that kind of thing controlled. Um, and Russell Crowe is coming at it from a whole different thing. He was saying, well, look, I have a family history with this. And my grandfather, um, ended up like he discovered this later in life, but his grandfather had an addiction and ended up, like, betting the house at one point and throwing away, literally throwing away like, generations of wealth. Um, you know, just in a game. And it's stories like that are just crazy. But but they're exactly the kind of thing that that happen. And, um, so it's just interesting listening to this and they were talking about how prevalent it is everywhere. And I hadn't noticed that. And I, I think that it depends where you live, for sure. So where I live in Poland and in Poland, I haven't seen a lot of it. I mean, there's definitely it's definitely around. You can go down to, to a corner store and gamble on a game and stuff, but it's not as evident in media and kind of general public. Advertisement. Um, and I think in the UK, at least years ago, it was the same where it was. It seemed more controlled than what you guys are describing and what I've been hearing about, um, where, you know, it's more discreet. It just sounds like it's become way more just in the public sphere. Talked about advertise, promoted. Um, and uh, so yeah. And they always put that I find it funny, you know, actually, speaking of Joe Rogan's podcast, he has an advert for gambling in the in the middle of his podcast and then and so obviously he was going to defend it. Right. But, um, there's always this little disclaimer at the end, isn't there, where it's like, if you have a gambling problem, call this number and da da da, but it's just wild to me that it's become so normalised. And I think that was the thing that the actor Russell Crowe was going on about. He was like, he just he was saying, I just don't like how normalised it's been made, that it's just a normal part of life. Everybody does it kind of thing. And and yet it's so destructive. It can lead to a crazy amount of destruction. And I think I think you said this, Ben before. I can't remember if you've already said it in introduction, but just that it's linked to it's the addiction that has the highest rates of suicide linked to it. Right? Coming from the perspective of someone who has struggled with addiction in his life, I would argue that once you struggle with a addiction, you are not immune to any other addiction. Whether it's gambling as the door that leads you into many other potential addictions, or whether it's something like alcohol or sex or drugs or any other kind of brain wiring disease that causes you to chase the dopamine hits. There was a time as a younger person who hadn't yet surrendered his life. And I mean, surrender is obviously a daily process as a Christian, but as someone who had not really surrendered at all or was completely had walked away from God, I remember thinking that I just wanted to move to Amsterdam, not because I wanted to reach all the people on the streets, but because marijuana was readily available in the cafes. You know, like I needed Steiger to reach me when I was in Amsterdam and I didn't meet anyone from Steiger in Amsterdam. It was crazy. But this would have been after you guys had already moved. But there was a time where it felt like whatever the taboo thing was, it was tucked away in a like one city in the world or like one area. You go to Vegas, there's the one spot where you can go and do that. And now whether it's crypto, whether it's stock stuff, or whether it's what you guys are talking about, like sports betting and whether we're watching TV, it's just, you know, this ad for this, this ad for that. And it is very surprising. But I think this is important to add. I don't necessarily struggle with the sports betting side of this, or gambling in the sense that I want to go to Vegas and blow a bunch of money. I think it can kind of lessen my empathy for someone who does potentially struggle with that. So one, I want to acknowledge that and apologize for that because that's that I need to work on that. But if this is something that you struggle with, then Gamblers Anonymous is maybe a starting point. That would at least be. I'm not saying that there aren't a whole bunch of other things, but something that I think is worth considering. And I was just curious because, Chad, you mentioned stocks, the stock like investing in stocks there. And like I hadn't thought about that before. Like would you say, would you say Chad, for instance, that you'd see investing in the stock market is gambling or is like the same, same level as gambling? No. And I would say that most of my history is on the crypto side of things. And for the most part, I wasn't gambling. At least I didn't think I was gambling. To me, there's a big difference between someone who's a long term investor who buys something and just plans to keep it. In my mind, it's a completely different conversation and not at all the same theme. I guess it can get like that, right? Of course it could. It could. People that get like that with it. Yeah. While the technicalities of it are probably beyond the scope of this podcast, I think ultimately gambling is a bit of a zero sum game. Somebody has to win for somebody to lose. Investing at its heart is that I believe in this company and its ability to be profitable. And if I invest in it, especially over the long run with patience, then I will be rewarded. And it's a win win. I am helping giving them capital to continue to build their business, and my reward for doing that is that I will gain returns. That is a different idea than you approach the stock market like a gambler, which is that I am trying to game the system and it's like David said, it's a day trading thing typically where you're buying, selling, buying, selling in a really quick way and undergirding it is a quick, rich often agreed. Often a desperation. It's not sort of the patient wealth acquiring that the scripture seems to that the Bible seems to affirm. And speaking of the Bible, I thought one thing that we could do to kind of give some structure to this conversation is just ask the fundamental question. Speaking of payoff, twenty eight minutes in, I'm paying off the title of this livestream, which is What would Jesus Say about gambling? I think all of the negative impacts that we've talked about are obviously bad, but for the person listening who just says, yeah, it's a little bit like alcohol, right? Like, yeah, people can abuse it or fast food or video games or whatever, but not me. I do it in moderation. I do it for entertainment. So like with everything, if we're trying to be faithful to Jesus, we probably should try to understand what he said about this particular issue. Well, I mean, the Bible doesn't talk about gambling specifically, but it talks about what causes me to want to gamble. And I think a good scripture about that is first Timothy six ten. Yeah. Where it says the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Yeah. Some people eager for money have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. If there's ever a thing that does what it's described there in first Timothy six ten is gambling. I mean, just the suicide. I think that this is a good scriptural reference to describe that. But obviously it doesn't just pertain to gambling. It's how we view money in general, I think. Yeah. The Bible doesn't necessarily specifically address every issue. You know, obviously caught in his omniscience, could have predicted whatever. But, you know, in the same way that pornography isn't directly mentioned in Scripture, obviously, there are clear injunctions against sexual immorality. I think you have to look at this issue through the same lens. What is the Bible saying about this topic in general? And I think the one you pointed out is very valid, which is that of course greed is an issue, right? Anything that a love of money, a desperation to acquire money is an issue. You know, I think of just how insatiable greed is. Kind of like fame. You just never have enough. And so if you enter into something like gambling, which has been designed to suck you in, which has been designed to prey on your reward system right in your anticipatory reward system, and then that's fueled by this insatiable greed. It's just a very devastating slippery slope. There's the famous John D Rockefeller quote, who's one of the richest men to ever live. He's an American of the yesteryear. And, you know, he was asked how much money is enough? And he famously said, just a little bit more. Right. And I think he was being tongue in cheek, but he was also giving a look into the soul of greed. Here's a guy who was incredibly rich, and yet he admitted very honestly that it was never enough. And so, of course, greed. Right? That's got to be the starting place If this is motivated by greed, then of course, biblically it's wrong, right? Yeah, yeah. No, I like also thinking about other, you know, because sometimes you can try to find a verse that kind of just goes straight to that issue or that point. And it's hard. Sure. That one, that one certainly, you know, deals with money in general. But I also like thinking about how the Bible paints a picture of like a this, this bigger picture of God's character. And, and then, um, how that reflects in us and how we can learn to live as people that reflect his character. And so I was thinking about this passage in Titus, where it describes what an elder or a or like a leader, a person of responsibility in the church should be like. And so it says, an elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Since an overseer manages God's household, he must be blameless, not overbearing, not quick tempered, not given to drunkenness. Not violent. Not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather, he must be hospitable. One who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. And I just I think what I appreciate about that is like, I think actually this is a picture of, um, an upright man of God that many people look for today, including like guys just in general, non-believers. Like, there's there's this desire in culture to find a way of living that is solid, that is like, I'm going to live, right, and I'm going to live for something meaningful. And, you know, there's the whole cultural move towards this. Um, I guess in some ways even relates to, to like Charlie Kirk or Jordan Peterson or guys that were just kind of calling out a general audience to like, be a man and be, you know, be be righteous and do right, do good things. And so there's a there's a thirst in the culture for that. And I feel like, you know, you just go to, to these, to the gold that there is in Scripture of, of what it looks like to be a godly man or a godly woman. And, and it just sounds like to me the, the idea of gambling just doesn't fit in that picture. That's the issue for me. It's like it doesn't fit to to play with the resources I've been given to steward in a way that is so, um, undisciplined and like, um, careless in a way. Yeah. Cavalier. Cavalier. That's the issue for me. So like, as a single person, that's one thing where, okay, you're risking you're, you know, you're not not building up for future or thinking about what you're building in your life. But for me, it gets way worse when people get stuck in this situation, when they're when their family, when they have families, when they're married or have kids. And it's just, um, they get themselves in crazy mess. I just can't imagine the stress, the weight that goes on somebody when they realize they're throwing away money that was supposed to care for their families, and it's just crazy. And Luke, I one hundred percent agree with you that looking at this through the lens of like, what is a godly, wise, mature man and woman? Now again, this disproportionately affects men because men, by the way, that they're wired by God, are more risk taking by nature. They're more attracted to this kind of thing. Of course it affects women, but just by and large, it's a male problem. And then, especially the way it intersects with sports now makes it an even more uniquely male problem. Um, so yeah, I totally understand what you're saying and agree that painting this picture of something to aspire to, as someone who is wise and generous and self-controlled and deliberate and building something of value, none of those things seem to align with a behavior that would do the opposite be impulsive, self-focused, risk taking and all of those things. Like it says in Proverbs thirteen eleven, someone just wrote this and I was actually going to quote that, so I'll just throw it up here. Uh, wealth gained hastily would dwindle, but whoever gathers little by little will increase it. And you know something I'm telling my son, of course, but also my daughters. But my son's a little bit at the age where he can understand it is, man, what you put in, you get out. You want to be the kind of person that works hard, that that is diligent, that invests and cares. And again, as you said, Luke, all of that is completely antithetical to really your average young male today. And you mentioned the differentiation between single and married. But I would argue that man adolescents now is thirty. Right. What you're describing might apply and be relevant to sixteen. But your average thirty year old male, it's pornography, video games and gambling. I mean, that's that's how they're getting their dopamine on a daily basis. And so I would argue even young men don't want that. They don't want that. I was listening to this online sort of talk show radio host, and he had a twenty three year old call in who had been gambling, he said, every single day since he was twelve and was just wasted. I mean, you could hear it in the guy's voice. Basically, he seemed to be just on the edge of wanting to give up on life itself was so desperate at his wits end as it relates to gambling, you know, not only in its casual form is it a lesser, non inspiring vision of male hood or personhood. But even at that age, he doesn't want that. He's not going, oh, I will deal with this when I'm married. He wants to get rid of this scourge on his life right now. It's a spiritual thing. I mean, if you've ever been in a casino, they're the most depressed, dark places you can. Oh, you mean it's not just young people dancing, laughing, throwing dice, everyone always winning. It looked cool when James Bond went there. It was like, wow. Yeah, yeah. What are you talking about? It's not just Monte Carlo. Exactly. Sorry. Go ahead. David. Casinos are just super depressing. But personally, when I had to be in, you know, go through one to where sometimes you had you had admitted you were at a casino. I like that the one time where my, uh, my car happened to be in between a casino. Yeah. But anyway, the point is, I feel this dark spirit in it. I think there's a real spiritual thing to it. And when you start messing around with it, it's like. It's like the occult, you know, you can do a few, you know, do a Ouija board or whatever, and maybe it's just kind of fun at first. But if you keep going, you're going to you're going to end up getting sucked in by the whole demonic side of it. And I think gambling has a very much a demonic thing to it. Well, and that's to to David's point, it's not like we ever hear stories of someone who gambles or day trades or whatever their form of gambling is, in an effort to make the world better. You know, like we started the organization of gamblers who give all their money away to the poor. As soon as I win, I'm gonna give it away. If there was some positive gamblers. Right. If it was like, okay, wow, these guys are so good at gambling that they just give it all away and then make it back the next day. That'd be kind of a cool like. All right, that'd be. That would make our life a little, a little harder. Although, like there is now you say it. It's interesting that I've, I've often heard, like, gambling advertisements trying to be linked to like, a social cause and that kind of thing. I mean, you know, like, you could be on an airplane, right? And they're saying, oh, buy this, uh, whatever. What's that called, like the scratchcard or whatever. And, um, and, uh, it goes the money goes to a social cause. What airline do you fly on where that you can buy a scratchcard? Uh. There's an airline in Europe called Ryanair. Instead of bathrooms or just slot machines. I'll take an orange juice, a gin and tonic, some snacks and a scratch card, please. I mean, I'm pretty sure I've seen that, man. I've seen that. No you haven't. I know you have. David. David. Saw it on his way to a church. You know, he happened to be parked in between one of those planes. But, um, the cool thing about this podcast is that if I'm ever wrong, then I invite you guys to call me out. It's very rare that we have to call Luke out for something. Yeah. Luke, finish your thought. Like looks going if you're young and single. Gambling. It's great, man. Go for it. But when you have kids, you probably should back off. No, what I was. Yeah, yeah, that was another terrible comment. What I was gonna say is how, um. It it's like we were saying at the beginning, it's become so prevalent, like, everywhere on a flight or or on your way to church or whatever. Um, it's just everywhere. But I was just thinking about how, you know, some of the stuff we're saying can relate to somebody who doesn't have a problem with gambling like you can. I guess in a way we can challenge the culture of normalizing gambling and saying, if let's really look at what it really is and recognize it's not cool, that it's become normalized and that and so therefore, for most people, it just means, hey, that's probably something we should avoid rather than than just making a normal thing. But if it's people like if there are people listening who truly are struggling with the addiction of gambling, that's a whole nother thing. It doesn't, you know, it's not it's not reading a verse about being a good, godly man that's gonna going to make you stop, uh, with an addiction. I guess that's another thing to recognize, which you guys have kind of said already, but it is on the same level of drug addiction and porn addiction and all these different things where when you get stuck in it, you need help to get out. And, uh, and it's so important. Right. And that's what you do is you, you reach out and you say, I need help. And that's the first step, right? But I think I think why this matters, though, Luke, is that to me, call it a clever PR campaign. Call it an airline industry that gives you scratch off tickets, whatever you want to call it, attach it to some charity, call it the stupid tax, you know, hey, we get to build parks because people are dumb with their money, whatever you want to call it. They have done a really good job of putting it in a different category, at least in my mind, than pornography, then alcohol, then drugs. And I think part of your average follower of Jesus response to this is, first of all, to have our eyes open to the devastation that this is causing and then to speak out against this, to not themselves, myself included, become influenced. Because ultimately there's a reason why things get advertised, right? Because it works. Although watching a football game and then they say you can do some gambling thing and they'll give you a free ten dollars, like ten dollars free. And I thought, what would be wrong with that? I haven't done it because it just, you know, it's it's just suck you in, obviously. Um, but I thought, what would be wrong with with betting ten dollars that they want to give me, you know, but it's it's really pernicious because it is coming so normalized when it's such a terrible thing. I mean, why is it that there's not been any pushback? Is it just greed? But that's an interesting thing, isn't it? I was thinking about that just now. What happens in culture where there's a shift in the general view of something? I feel like even though pornography is more prevalent than ever and more a problem than ever, that it does seem to me like there's been a bit of a shift, at least in general, in people's general opinion of of pornography, because I feel like there was a time where pornography was talked about positively in a lot of places, like psychologists or whatever, saying, oh yeah, you should, you should use pornography or help your marriage or, you know, crazy stuff like that. And, and like, magazines just being sold. very just freely in shops. And I remember being in a car with friends when I was a kid, and the dad's just buying, you know, Playboys or whatever, and it was just a normal thing. Whereas I feel like today there's a thing, at least on the surface, of people saying, well, yeah, we gotta protect kids from pornography. And we've got and pornography is destructive. And there's more talk about that, even though it's just everywhere. Yeah, but I feel like that hasn't happened with gambling yet. So I wonder if there's something that needs to happen in terms of talking about it and talking about the destructive nature of it, for there to be a shift in culture around it. Well, what was weird is so my, the pastor of the church that I go to made a very offhanded comment about gambling out of nowhere, and it wasn't like the point of his sermon. It wasn't a big point of emphasis, but he basically just said, oh, and just don't gamble. Like, just what are we doing, people? Like, just not it was. But what I thought was interesting is I as I was like, that is maybe the first time I can ever remember a pastor talking about gambling. And it was like 10s in the middle of the sermon. I don't think I have any recollection in my entire life where I've heard a pastor deliberately talk about gambling, and so I think that is part of it. Now, I'm now a historian of these moral issues, because I'd have to imagine, like in your dad's day, dad. I'm sure it was seen just as a thing. That kind of that was for the seedy underbelly. Like, same with pornography. These things come in. It was a given. I mean, you didn't need to be told something that was so obvious now. And part of that was there were there were different factors involved. Right? It was very brick and mortar. If you wanted to go buy a pornography magazine, you had to physically put on a trench coat and duck in into the seedy doors, you know, like, yeah, so, so part of it is like, I think it was a given, you know, Judeo-christianity was such a dominant moral framework of the West. Then I think you have this sort of liberalism, the moral liberalism that springs up in the sixties and the seventies and everything's fine, everything's good. But then that gets coupled with this, the technology, and it explodes it to a level where then even society is going, whoa, right where pornography is getting in the hands of ten year olds. Hardcore pornography. Violent pornography is getting in the hands of ten year olds. Now society is starting to wake up. So I think it's part of the shifting tides of this. And I think gambling has maybe been a little bit slower again. I'm no historian of this, so don't correct me, but a little bit slower to in air quotes, because it's now pretty much raging fast of utilizing the technology we have and the influencers and the sports world and the podcasting world to now make it. Now, I think we're really in the sort of the upper end of the Exponentiating curve. And yeah, and it makes me think even like all of us here, we we one of the things we do is we'll speak in churches or different venues, conferences, whatever, to talk about gambling, because I'll talk about pornography. You're right. You know, we don't mention that as part of the global youth culture struggle, but I think it's going to. I've not once mentioned gambling in any, any time that I've, I've preached anywhere. Well, and I think that's going to change. So yeah, here's what I'm wondering guys. And I think this maybe intersects more with something we are qualified to talk on, because I think that there is a worldview angle to this. Similar to how we talk about secular humanism and the loss of meaning and the loss of purpose and how that has created the environment that is, has made pornography so ripe. Video games such a problem. I think gambling fits into that. I think part of this is boredom. Don't you think, Luke, that there is a degree of the when you're when when we look at the stat that says teens and young adults are the highest growing rate of addicted people to, you know, the segment of society that's addicted to gambling. Don't you think part of that is a worldview problem? Yeah. And probably the way you were saying links to technology creates that as a way out of boredom. So. So yeah, I think I think you're right. I think there's, I mean, boredom, it's a funny thing. It's a relative thing, isn't it? Because if you're in a culture, if you're brought up in a culture where you're you're always on something on the phone and getting info and, and just being entertained or distracted, then the moment you don't have that boredom hits. And so you have to keep looking for something more. And so then I can see how gambling comes into this, because if it then gets tied into whatever games on your phone and stuff and because it's so normalised, then your friends are doing it. I think that's part of it. Just kind of a peer pressure. Yeah. One thing I found really interesting is, you know, I'll tend to go to certain voices to hear opinions on this, secular and otherwise. And so I listened to a couple of different videos from Jordan Peterson talking about gambling. And of course, he very much as opposed to gambling. And he was fighting it quite publicly in Canada when it was starting to become more legalized and more normalized. And he has a lot of very insightful things to say. But of course, from a clinical, psychological perspective, he talks about how we are hardwired to seek out risk, especially men, how we we want risk, we want, um, the even the anticipation can be more rewarding than the risk itself. And he also talks about how the emotional brain is not good at calculating probability. In other words, to the emotional brain. Oh, there's a chance has more weight than one in three hundred million. Like mathematically like the emotional mammalian brain, as he would describe it goes, oh, there's a chance, you know, like Homer Simpson. So you're saying there's a chance, um, compared to the actual reality that there really isn't a legitimate chance. And so they've rigged the game to tap into our risk, desiring physiology and our inability to calculate the gap between chance and reality. And so we're just perfectly hardwired to get sucked into these games. And I guess my question, as I as I looked at that, I thought we talk about risks all the time on this podcast. And I actually think it's very interesting that Jordan Peterson says we are wired to take risks. I think part of the problem is young men especially, aren't taking the kind of God honoring risks that they were designed to take. They were they were created to be part of a risk taking, do bold things, wild childlike faith things. And because they they have a worldview that has stripped them of that transcendent basis for risk taking, they're taking risks by diving off cliffs into water and by gambling all their money away on their on their phones. Don't you think the part of this. The solution here is to call young people to godly risks? That's a really that's a really cool perspective. It seems so obvious. The missing link, you know, because the the complete polar opposite of gambling is total sacrifice and living unto others and living unto God in a way that that is makes it because gambling makes it all about me or whoever the person is gambling in that moment, and whether or not we lose or we win, but making it all about someone else and them winning, it's like it just is a it's night and day. So yeah, I think that's really what it is. It's a great point because I mean, you know, somebody somebody probably sitting there going, man, you guys are so boring. Gambling is exciting, you know, come on, live, live your life a bit, you know, that kind of thing. But I think that's the point. You've hit the point there, Ben, and just like going, I think that was a really important thing to say, that risk taking is a God given thing. It can be godly. It can be, um, yeah. Part of, of of our nature, of our creator creation nature to want to take risks, to go on adventure, to to do crazy things and, and yet, like the point there is, what are the kind of risks that are right to take. Well, like for example, we talk about this all the time, dad, you and I, it's like, you know, when you see some documentary of some dude who climbed Mount Everest and died, part of you is kind of like, all right. I mean, yeah, I guess, like, it's a little self-indulgent, I guess is the point. We want to talk about noble, self-sacrificing risks. Let's talk about the doctor who serves with Doctors Without Borders and gives his life to help people with infectious diseases and dies in the process. Okay, slightly different category of risk than the guy who went base jumping and is, you know, the rope didn't work. So I think that's kind of the heart of what you're trying to say. But I think part of this look is so important, which is that the answer, the antidote to the dull, dreary, lifeless world that secular humanism creates is not moralism and legalism. It's a call to something higher and better and harder and more adventurous. That's what people want. That's why the Jordan Peterson's of the world resonate so much with his audience. Because he's not saying, just avoid these bad things and stay in your bedroom. He's saying like, make your bed and then get the heck out and make something of yourself. And so I think that's part of what inspires me, is to say, be the kind of person who just doesn't have any margin for something stupid, like gambling. Be the kind of person whose life is so full you have such good responsibility in the right sense that you just see it for what it is as this triviality. And you're like, yeah, that's great. If I get to the nine hundredth thing on my list, then maybe I'll gamble. Yeah, that's right. I think that's why we talk so much in response to, like, the worldview you were, you know, you were mentioning secular worldview in the mission, we talk so much about the importance of purpose of meaning, right? That one of the amazing thing God gives us is purpose and meaning. And that's what secular culture lacks so much of. And and so it is something that you, you can seek in him to find things that fill you with meaning and purpose that you are excited about. And that's why you take on responsibility and why you might be filling your time with with great things, because you're excited about the purpose of it. And that is, you're right, that's probably the best. And, uh, what's the word I'm thinking of? Anti antidote. Antidote. Thank you, um, for gambling and for general like searching for random things in boredom. Yeah, no, there's a lot we could say on this topic. Uh, we've gone on for quite some time, so I think we'll wrap it up here. But again, I wanted to bring it to the worldview because a I think that's what I'm very passionate about. I know you guys are as well. And like you said, this isn't about stuffy moralism. This is about, first of all, having a broken heart for a devastating reality in our world. It's also about not being naive, right? Opening up our eyes to the reality. And maybe as pastors, leaders, men, we should be talking about this more. We should not be allowing this to become so mainstream. You know, it's the Chad. You sent me a video of a guy who kind of breaks down the gambling problem, and he calls out the hypocrisy of Joe Rogan, who on one level rails against the pharmaceutical ads and how they paint it in this whimsical light. And then the next second, he's promoting Gambling, which uses the exact same manipulative tactics to promote its product. Like everyone's winning and everyone's happy, and everyone's having such a great time watching sports, when in reality it's the twenty three year old contemplating suicide in his bedroom because he can't break this addiction. That's the ugly face. It's the person who's stealing from their friends and family to maintain a habit or ending up on the streets, or worse. So that's I think we need to be talking about it. And then I think we need to be getting out there and preaching the gospel, which includes a thriving vision for life that will make these substitutes appear for the counterfeits that they are, because that's what they are. They're cheap counterfeits, nothing more. And I think we need to get busy letting people know. Amen. Yeah. My last thought, Ben, is that I can't gamble because I'm just so bad at it. I would just lose all the time. So plus Anya would just kick your little butt. She would kill me. You would die. It's like, well, the potatoes, you know. You gambled them away at the local vegetable market. You know. Exactly. Uh, so the shirt, where are the potatoes? I like that. We gotta go. I love you guys. That was awesome. Thanks for the conversation, boys. Thanks for those streaming for the questions and comments. Yeah, thanks for all the comments, y'all. We appreciate you. And, uh, if you have any encouraging things to say, Chad Johnson at Stagger org and if you have any criticisms Luke. Dot, what's your last name again? Greenwood. All right. That's it. Love y'all. Peace.

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