Charlie Kirk and the Power of Words

Hey friends, this is a complicated episode once again, because the thing we are planning on talking about was interrupted by a horrible and tragic event, the assassination of Charlie Kirk. We do end up talking about the thing we planned, but of course we started with trying to process this horrific event and what to think. We looked at the idea of freedom of speech and what he represented and and what we're supposed to do now in light of a country that seems increasingly divided. And I, for one, am very concerned about the future of where I live and frankly, the world in general. We do end up talking about humor, which is what we originally intended on talking about. And what sparked this was a very interesting exchange between Forrest Frank and Corey Asbury. And we talk about the power of words, social media and the problems that it causes and and the true meaning of humor. Where does it come from, and is there a version of it that is God honoring? Overall, I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation. It wasn't easy. It was a little bit all over the place, but I think God was in it and I hope that you are encouraged by it. In general, the events of these recent days just reminds me of how important it is that we share the gospel with those that don't know him. Ultimately, what we're dealing with is a sin problem. People are far from God. Their hearts are broken and corrupted and they need to know the truth. And so we need to be committed to telling them. And that's why I love the mission I get to be a part of. Steiger is all over the world, two hundred plus cities, and we are daily out there sharing the gospel with those who would not otherwise walk into a church. For more info on how you can connect and support this vital mission, go to Steiger org. And then lastly, guys, I just ask that you participate in this community. We sincerely wrestle every day with how to be faithful for Jesus in an increasingly post-Christian culture. And now more than ever, we need each other. We need to strive together to be faithful, to be bold, to be loving. It's not easy, and we definitely cannot do it alone. So share this podcast, this content with others, invite them into this community. And let's be bold. Let's make a difference with our lives while we still can. All right, let's get on to the conversation about Charlie Kirk. The power of words, the source of humor, and how do we move forward from here? You're listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. What's up everyone? Welcome to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. Learning how to follow Jesus in a post-Christian world. My name is Ben Pearce. I'm the host of the show. We got David Pearce, my dad, and Chad Johnson, but this time no Luke. So Luke and Chad play some sort of weird game of musical chairs, and apparently the chair is with Chad today. Luke is actually in Japan and for various reasons, uh, to establish a city team there and a new movement and a lot of opening doors in Japan. And we're hoping one day also to do a no longer music show or tour there, um, perhaps even as soon as next year. So pray for Luke. And again, I think it's I always think it's cool when we're spread around the globe doing the very thing that we talk about in this mission. I think it gives a lot of authority to what we do. And I know I always say this in the introduction of this podcast, but we are part of this global movement. Around two hundred cities around the world and growing of people who are boldly sharing Jesus outside of the church. And obviously our world needs it. Uh, we are here in the US, but clearly this is not just a US story. Yesterday, less than twenty four hours ago, uh, the right wing conservative activist Charlie Kirk was assassinated. And it's just another one of those days where you just don't even really know how to process what you're watching unfold in real time. Um, obviously in our social media world, there are all sorts of videos which I have avoided, uh, watching, and I recommend you avoid watching as well from everything I've heard. But it's just a horrifying event. And as an American, as somebody who has lived here, not my whole life, but for a long time now, it's just one of those things where I don't want to become so used to this that I just kind of go, I throw my hands up. Of course I say all the right things. I feel the right things. As a dad, I can't even imagine how devastated his family is. I can't even imagine how they even go on from this. And I feel those things. I say those things, but then I just move on because this is the reality that I live in here. And I don't know, it just I don't even really know what to say, other than it's obvious that this country and this world needs a revival. It needs the Holy Spirit, it needs this sort of unmitigated evil that's everywhere. It needs to encounter Jesus because it doesn't feel like our politics are making anything any better. It's just seems to be getting worse by the day. So I don't know what to say. Guys, other than I felt like we had to say something because the whole world is kind of gripped by this horrific situation. In my view. We're supposed to be moved, but then we're supposed to seek God more and tell more people about Jesus. I mean, this this kind of Charlie Kirk reality is happening all the time. I mean, like, because I'm at our mission school, we have people from all over the world here, and we're doing kind of the new style communion now, where we celebrate what Jesus did with big chunks of bread and alcohol free wine. And it's amazing. But we had people standing up and saying how I was getting ready to cut my wrist. You know, I had the knife and God just moved and made me drop the knife. Yeah. We live in a world where evil things happen. Yeah, well, on the same day here in the US, there was a school shooting in Colorado, you know. And so you're right, there is a tension there because I think what social media has done is made us instantly aware of everything all the time, in a way that I don't think any human being is capable of absorbing and feeling all of that. I just don't think we can handle it. And the only way we really cope is by compartmentalizing it, or dealing with it, or just feeling a distance from it and moving forward. You know, I think what I will say is that regardless of your beliefs or your views on Charlie Kirk and how he went about his mission, you know, I was watching a video this morning. Of course, my algorithms just filled with Charlie Kirk videos, and I was watching this video of of him just very boldly, clearly explained to this young guy that that his hope was in Jesus. And he just said it and he said it with such conviction, and he said it with such clarity. And all these people around him were watching and listening. And, you know, again, regardless of, you know, his methodology and whether it was perhaps a little caustic at times, he was willing to stand up for what was true, what he believed to be true in public places. And, you know, there are many places around the world where that is not possible. And I think we're increasingly seeing in the West a shrinking of that possibility. And I think you're seeing acts like this perpetrated in order to continue to shrink and further shrink opportunities like that. I think you're going to see a lot of universities just refusing to have public debates, refusing to have open forum discussions out of fear of safety. And that is a victory on the part of this evil human being that committed this heinous act. And, you know, regardless of what you thought of his approach, Charlie Kirk was bold and he stood up for what was true. And he did it in such a way That was discourse that was public. That was he put his money where his mouth is, so to speak, and was willing to put his reputation on the line to have these exchanges with these students. And for that I you know, I commend him. I think he did a lot of good because of that. And I think he took advantage of an opportunity that seems to be vanishing and seems to be shrinking. And I remember when we were on tour with No Longer Music and we we'd be preaching the gospel in a place like Turkey and or some other country where it was very hard to preach the gospel. And I remember the fear that I would feel in those contexts, and the challenge and even the spiritual oppression of doing that, and then stepping off the plane in a place like the US and just having this thought like, what is holding me back here from just being clear, just telling people the truth. And yet, I think we all know that while that may be true, it may not be true forever. And acts like this, I think, are attempts to. As I've already said, make that untrue, scare people from being willing and so on one level. Again, I say I commend the courage of what Charlie Kirk devoted his life to. But on the other level, I think it's a reminder to be urgent because we don't know how long we'll be able to even go into a public space and talk about Jesus before it's just something that's completely shut down or met with just, you know, um, unapologetic violence. Who knows the kind of future we're heading into. Something you said that really reminds me of what yesterday evening felt like for me was scrolling through Facebook and for the first time in my life, seeing clip after clip of a public execution, I was shocked at the level of non filtering that Facebook allowed people to share such a graphic image, especially from one angle where I was like, wow, that's like it just it was it was super surprising that, um, for all the stuff that seems to get buried, that somehow something that, uh, extreme doesn't, uh, was was my first thought. And then this morning, I saw our own Steiger missionary, Valera, share something really powerful. It just said life on Earth. Over the last three days. Another sleepless night in Ukraine, fuel shortages in Russia, the murder of Irina Zaritskaya in the USA. Israel strikes Qatar, another sleepless night in Ukraine revolution and a burned parliament in Nepal. Attack on a government building Ukraine. Shahed drone attack in Poland. Another sleepless night in Ukraine. iPhone seventeen the murder of Charlie Kirk in the USA. All this in just the last three days. How is your inner self? And then he quotes Psalm sixty one six my soul find rest in God alone. My hope comes from him. It's like the Charlie Kirk thing is like such a, um, Unfortunately. Small piece of the. What what you were saying, David, like the global scene right now feels so chaotic that even though like a Charlie Kirk moment, it comes to the surface, probably in especially because of of how much footage they had of it or people had of it that was distributed. But it's just crazy that that's that is like one like the thing you mentioned about the Denver school shooting, it was like that was like they like passed over that in the news. It was like a tiny little blip, you know, it was like Charlie Kirk, Charlie Kirk, Charlie Kirk, and then this little tiny like. And, you know, three people are, I think, either killed or wounded in that shooting. And it's just like, man, I didn't even know about that. So there was a shooting at the same time, same day, I don't know, about same same time, but in Denver. Sure. Seriously? Yeah. Evergreen high school shooter. It's unbelievable. I mean. Right, yeah. We live in a world now where this happens so frequently that we can't even really give meaningful attention to all of them at the same time. You know, and there was a quote that was circulating speaking of names, I can't pronounce Jiddu Krishnamurti. That was better than my attempts. Yeah, you crushed it on first try. I'm a linguist. Uh, he wrote. It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society. And, you know, that was on secular radio. Bumper to bumper radio yesterday as I was driving. That quote was kind of being repeated. And I think that's what we're all contending with, right? We don't want to become numb to this. And yet, as David said, we also can't take on the full weight of it either. So what do we do? And I guess all we can really do is be urgent. You know, I don't know about you guys, but I woke up this morning and I drank my coffee and I hugged my kids, and I thought, this is what Charlie Kirk expected to do this morning, right? Like, he didn't expect to not be here. Like, and obviously, I think he's with Jesus. And there's a profound hope in that. But at the same time, it was, like very jarring to me. You know, I just kind of woke up and I'm sure he just thought, you know, set my alarm and grabbed my coffee and hug my two kids. And so it just on one level, again, this is one of those things that we get sort of shaken out of our apathy and our delusion of life going on forever. And yes, of course it does in an eternal sense. But we are so fragile. So there's an urgency that is in recognizing that in attempting to live in light of that, not just when we are shaken out of our delusion, but on a day to day basis. Kind of like Kirk Cousins, former quarterback for the Vikings, who would pull a marble out of a jar, each one representing a day of his life. Yeah. And he did that as sort of this physical reminder that life is short. And here's another day gone, and here's another day gone. And we're, of course, by no means guaranteed to get to the bottom of that jar either. So live urgently, speak boldly while we can, because a day might come when we may have to pay an equally high price for being willing to speak what's true. And and again, it's not as if he was naive to the risks. I don't think he thought that level of planning and skill. You know, I don't think he thought he had to treat himself like the president. He clearly had security because I'm sure he received death threats all the time. There was some petition signed by, I think, over two or three thousand people from the university trying to prevent him from coming to that specific university to speak. So he was clearly well aware of a certain level of risk. I don't think he was aware of that kind of level of risk, but it definitely took courage to do what he did. And and, you know, he was planning on being here at the University of Minnesota, where I'm from, in a few weeks. Um, so it's surreal. It's heartbreaking. If you have to have presidential security to speak at a university, you're not going to be able to do it. You can't spend that kind of well, and the universities will not take on that risk. No they won't. They won't. That's the point that I was trying to make earlier in that this is going to have a profound impact on universities. I mean, they secular universities, liberal leaning universities, are already very hesitant to bring on countervailing voices to their campuses. It already takes courage just to get past the petitions and the anger and the student backlash, but now they're handing them the perfect excuse to just never take that risk. And that's a loss to American democracy. Western democracy. That's a loss to freedom. That's a loss to growth, because we don't grow if we can't discuss openly our differing opinions, if we are silenced by the fear of violence. And, you know, it's like every good playground has been ruined because something tragic happens. And then they add more and more regulation. And that's the that's the society we live in and I get why. But it's not good. It's not good for society. It's not good for where we're heading in the increased tribalism and polarity that we're finding, because it's just going to mean people are going to stay inside of their own bunkers and present their viewpoints rather than bring it out into a place where hopefully we can find common ground and grow. So, uh, anyway, one of the things I wanted to hear about was Chad. He was quite open about some struggles he was going through. Sure. Can we talk about that first? Would that be all right? Yeah. In full transparency. I'm not being called out on the spot. Just in case anyone is super surprised right now by the like. Wait, what? Now I wish I was being called out on the spot. I was called out on the spot like two months ago, which was the beginning of all this actually, and it was beautiful. Both Ben and David live on air at the end of a recording. They said, Chad, are you okay? I was just like, I don't want to get into that, you know, into what I'm dealing with. So I just pretended. I'm sure I lied, you know? So I apologize to all the listeners for probably lying in that moment. But it was amazing because I didn't really think that much of it other than I was having a really bad day. And then David called me and said, hey, man, I'm like, you know, I'm just I feel concerned for you and how are you really doing? And that was for sure the beginning of me unwinding a lot of, uh, the pains and the hurts and then talking to Ben. Um, I think a few days later, uh, just admitting that that the podcast for me has historically been a pain point because it represents what is still tattooed to my knuckles, but that doesn't did not live to see the light of day in the way that I imagined it would, which is come and live. Uh, and this podcast is the the reason it's a pain point. It's the it's the only lasting sliver of what I had once left my career for to to pursue, um, and to want to advance God's kingdom. And so that so it was like it was one part that and then one part just going through an extremely trying season with the festival business, um, with some partner relationships, in business, with job that I had been working, not panning out. I'm fifty one years old, and I'm starting over from what feels like kind of from scratch. In that moment, it felt like all of this weight, unresolved tension on my shoulders, and I was just feeling super frustrated and angry and, uh, I wouldn't say suicidal, but I would say suicidal. Ideating. That's the wrong way to say it. But you know what I'm saying? Like like there were thoughts of like, I wonder if I just wasn't here. Like, maybe that would solve the problem and I wasn't the reason I say I wasn't suicidal because I was never like, taking it to the point where I'm like, man, I'm gonna come up with a plan. But but I would for sure think about, you know, I think probably the easiest way to die is to jump off a bridge. You know, like a thought like that would cross my mind and I'd just be like, holy, you know, it's not say the word that I'm not going to say here. And I was able to share with some of the people that walk with me in the SA recovery program and some of my addiction recovery stuff. So it was weird timing of like, you guys calling me out publicly without either of you having any clue what was really going on, but just probably seeing it on my face and just how at that time, even though talking with David, I felt myself like oddly encouraged because at that time, what I was really saying in the like frustration was, I don't have time for the podcast because I'm so busy with all this BS in my life that I can't control and that I can't figure out, and that that is overwhelming me. That talking to you guys and joking around, the banter that goes back and forth, all that's like keeping me from the stuff I really should be doing and it's just annoying. It's the second time that I've wanted to quit the podcast and I was like, I want out. I'm just. I'm done. I'm too important for this. Pretty much what my pride. And of course, after talking with David, it's like I was able to to say way more than I thought I could. Stuff starts coming out that I didn't recognize was in my heart, you know, and didn't realize how hard my heart was. By the time I talked to Ben, it was like I had had a little bit of time to process and really recognize it. Man, I think every time I show up for the podcast, I'm having to deal with a little bit of PTSD from a ministry transaction that didn't work or decision that didn't work. That is in some ways why I'm in this season, that I'm in of like, what in the world do I do next? Basically, what I've seen in the last two months is I've seen the Lord completely liberate me of all of that pressure, all that stress, all that tension, all that like bottled up, anger, resentment, bitterness, self-hatred. Just like feeling like I should have never quit tooth and nail. I should have never started coming live. Basically, every decision I've made in life was a bad one, an extreme overexaggeration. But when you're having a bad day, at least for me, sometimes like that stuff really begins to speak very loudly. And, uh, and I unfortunately at times let it in. So the good news is, and the reason this is a perfect segue is because I'm smiling and laughing and I actually have joy in my spirit. And I'm not pretending. I'm not saying this just as like a cool, well, let's, you know, David didn't call me or Ben didn't call me before this and say, let's set this up and make sure there's closure from that awkward time we called you out. You know, um, this is this is, uh, pure God's grace and goodness as he has always appeared in my life. Okay, that's good to hear, Chad. Well, yeah. And again, thank you for for being vulnerable. And I think we've said this multiple times on this show before, but I think at the end of the day, life is real, man. And everyone listening to this is dealing with stuff. And at the end of the day, if we're just four dudes up here, or three in this case, just kind of, you know, pretending to have it all together. I think it's kind of antithetical to so much of what we talk about. So I appreciate you leading the way and being honest. And I know it's challenged me to to be honest and be vulnerable. And even as it relates to the leadership podcast that we talked about last week, um, you know, you weren't there for that one. But ultimately, people don't follow other people because they're perfect. They follow them because they're called and they're real. And so I commend you for that. And yeah, I think we can transition here to this topic that again, I think is it's relevant across the board. Uh, the, the impetus for it, the context for this conversation comes from something that's a little bit in my mind, a little bit lighter, perhaps not as big of a deal. Well, certainly not as big of a deal as what we've talked about. But even in its own right, it's a bit silly, if I'm being perfectly honest. But the world famous Christian artist, Forrest Frank. He suffered a pretty serious back injury a little while back. He was on a skateboard. You can actually see the ring camera footage and it was rough. I mean, he takes a pretty hard bale, hurts his back and he posts this serious. I would say it was. It's not lighthearted in terms of what happened, but he had a fun style to it. He was self-deprecating in some senses. But, you know, ultimately he breaks his back is a very serious deal. And yeah, but what was his why did he post it? I he said because he's Gen Z and okay, you know, that's what we do. All right. Yeah. Um, anyway, it was pretty cool footage, though. I mean, he did. It was whatever. I don't know, it's pretty brutal. You share your life on social media. That's what you do. It was, like, the dumbest way to break your back ever, right? He wasn't he wasn't also in his defense, I don't think he was pretending like, hey, everyone, stop the presses. This is the most important thing that's ever happened. So he wasn't like being a nurse, rescuing people. Okay, can we move on? No. And he wasn't doing crazy extreme skateboard stuff. He was already hijacking the purpose. No. I'm trying. Is it. Is it a. I'm asking honest questions. Move on. This isn't the question asking part of the how do is there like a it's not that complicated. He he posts a video that's called a red herring. You're following the wrong not. But if you could just say things more clearly, we'd chat and I would not be so. All right. You're a second away from the mandatory muting. Uh, anyway, so he posts this video and then all of these, you know, most of it's very positive and, you know, supportive, but then some kind of funny parody videos start to come out where some artists, some Christian notable Christian artists start, you know, almost creating spoof versions of exactly what he posted, paralleling some of the imagery. And, and one of the ones that got most attention was, uh, Corey Asbury of Reckless Love fame. He posts a video where essentially he he mirrored the style and the structure of the video, but it was more related to to his vasectomy, not his, not his broken back. And anyway. And I don't even know how you I mean, I haven't seen that, but it puts that image in my mind, as it should. But anyway, so Forrest Frank posts a reaction of him watching this and then commenting on it. And basically the gist of it is, dude, like, I get that you're trying to be funny, but this was like a really serious, painful, hard moment for me. And he kind of used it as an asset to talk about, oh, you're done. See, I knew you wouldn't be able to take this conversation seriously. I'm pushing these little buttons and I'm having my finger on the mute button. I'm trying to hold back my laughter so hard that veins are popping in my shiny forehead. I knew this would be impossible. Should have been the one that David missed. Um. Anyway, so it sparked this conversation about the power of words and humor. And what role does humor play in the body of Christ? And I actually think it's a very important conversation because clearly, even in this podcast, we love humor and it's something that's a big part of my life. Like, it's a big part of the way I socially interact with other people is joking and it can be fun. But the question does need to be asked What is God honoring humor? What role does humor play into our in our interpersonal interactions? And then what role should humor play in a more public context like social media? So I will open up the floor, albeit quite nervously. Uh, where should where where do you feel led to go with this? And you know what? I'm starting with you, Chad. Well, I actually think it's it's surprisingly, um, relevant to this podcast. Yeah, I agree. Because one, I don't think we've ever talked about it, which is a cool trend. We're now now enjoying a drink, baby. Yeah. And then two and then two. Uh, we do this all the time. I mean, this podcast is basically thirty percent spiritual War content and seventy percent banter. I'd say it's the other way around. I take it back. Other way around. Eighty nine percent spiritual, eleven percent banter. But we make fun of each other. We poke at one another. We are light hearted, laughing. So. But I came across a verse out of Ephesians four, verse twenty nine. It says, do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. The joking that I do, that's like fifty five percent who I am. Like, I think if you ask my wife any serious question that you ask me, there's a high probability that the first answer out of my mouth is either a lie or a joke. And if it's a lie, it's because I want it to be a joke. I do genuinely wonder, like, am I just too silly? Am I too goofy? Am I too light hearted? Do I not watch my tongue enough? Like I love pranks. That's just a version of joking. Like, I was in New Zealand on an epic trip and everybody's seen the documentary that's seen the documentary and they're like, that's so incredible. You know, God moves so powerfully. But in my mind, one of the things that I think of is the time that one of my friends had to use the bathroom on the spot because he had diarrhea since Easters, and he was like, I gotta go. And he and he went down into, like, the bushes. And he had to go so bad. And it was a horrible moment for him. And I, of course, am like with our cameraman. And I'm like, let's go find him. So this is horrible. You know, like, I've been doing this kind of stuff my whole life, like just trying to put people down in a way to like, make a season or a time funny. And it was genuinely funny, and we made a video out of it, and it was it made me laugh so hard. But I think I had to, like, truly repent to my friend because I completely made, you know, a you know what of him. And I for sure need to repent. I'm pretty sure, yeah, I've had to do a fair amount of repenting, you know, in my life, however, I didn't realize this was going to turn into a confessional. I'm trying to be honest, man. Sometimes I go, you know, I'm gonna have to repent for this, but I still have to do it. Like, I have this, like thing in my mind. Like, you know, I probably shouldn't, but maybe if it's worth it, I don't know. I'm just being transparent about it. But it does remind me. I don't know if this is kind of related, and I think I it does remind me this. This reminds me this is the problem. I don't know if this is a one. If David's setting us up for one giant joke or if this is real. This is so is this for real? I'm always real. But the thing this reminded me of, Chad is like, I've talked about this before, I think, but it's too good to pass it up. It's like people always like you go to different places, missions or churches and they say, this is our facility and they show you like this giant everything. This was a random story. And so, so then the guy. So I go, oh, do you want to see ours? And I took a picture of a of a crack house, you know, just like it was just trash everywhere. And like, that's a great joke. Oh, it's so hilarious. But I didn't laugh at all. That's what's good about it. That is the bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To not laugh. Yeah. This is our community house or whatever. And then I showed it to him, and he actually, he had you know how it is. He goes, oh, nice or whatever. You have to. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He gonna do go. Yeah. What? The crack house. Oh, it's a beautiful crack house. Is this how a Swedish guy? I don't know, but I didn't really, uh. I don't think I told him you weren't gonna do a random story, and then you just. Luke is, like, all in a random story. Luke is always like, oh, we gotta. You just weaseled in or random. We have to. We have to, you know, we want to make a good impression. Random story. Get to the point. Well, the point is that I was identifying with how Chad has to ask forgiveness. However, I did not ask forgiveness for the crack house. One. All right, move on. So, uh, those confessions aside, this is a serious question, though, right? Because it's hard to know because it is fun. And I do reject the notion that to be a follower of Jesus is to be devoid of humor. So it is a valid question to ask, what does it mean? And I think you have to start a conversation. Let me rephrase. Any conversation about humor, I think starts with the power of words, right? Because by and large, jokes are conveyed through words. Now, there's some physical comedy elements to it, like chasing a guy with a camera who is having a moment in a bush. Um, yeah. That's a that's a video clip. What's called active a moment in a bush sounds way worse than what actually even happened. Well, I don't know. That's what it was. He was, like, way down this ravine. Okay, okay, okay. So the power of words really is. Geez, this is just impossible. Uh, words are the foundation of humor, right? And if, depending on your view of words, it, I think will depend on how seriously you take jokes and humor. Because if you see words as just throwaway and ultimately meaningless, then what you say and speak to other people is going to be cheap. Like you're not going to put a high price on the things you say. The problem with that is a follower of Jesus is that the Bible makes it abundantly clear that words are so incredibly powerful. I mean, God used words to create the world, and then he endowed us with the ability to communicate. David, you often say this how just from a scientific, biological perspective, the fact that we can utter these things out of our mouths and that they are intelligible to other people, and we can then communicate the fact that we don't see that as miraculous as it is, means we don't truly understand how powerful it is. You even think about how the words are so powerful that God had to confuse humanity at the Tower of Babel, because their communication was becoming too in sync. And he was like, this is this is too powerful. I gotta confuse them, right? And so on and on and on and on. Throughout Scripture, you see that words are powerful. And so the things that we say, we have to take that seriously. And I'm not even I got another two pages of Scripture in James, in Matthew that talk about the power of words, the warning to be careful, you know, proverbs filled with injunctions that where words are an abundant foolishness follows are all. However, that verse goes. So clearly don't we have to start with what the Bible says about words, and that then becomes the lens through which we view what we then say, humorous or otherwise. Well, I mean, the power of words is crazy because like, if you'll notice that that armies are not led by the strongest guys, you know. It's not the biggest. You know, the guy who's the most physical strength. It's the guy who's the articulate one. It's the little dude, you know? It's that the big guy could just snap his neck in a second, but he follows the little dude and it doesn't make any sense. You know, I've thought about that. It's like to understand leadership and the role of words. And it's this ability to motivate, to inspire for good or evil just based on communication. And I mean, that's what rules the world. It's not the guy who can lift the biggest log across the stream or dig the deepest hole with the shovel. It's the the guy who understands and has been given this gift of words. And even in a horrific and tragic sense, a lot of the assassinations, including the one of Charlie Kirk yesterday, were motivated by people who recognize the power of words. Right. It was the very fact that Charlie could communicate what he believed so articulately and effectively that made him such a threat. In the same with Martin Luther King or, you know, presidents of years past, it was often their ability to inspire and motivate through the power of their words that made them a target for these crazy people who wanted to silence them. And so for us to compartmentalize humor as detached in some senses from words is not biblical. So in light of that, Chad, then how do we what do we do? Like, do we just become dull, lifeless followers of Jesus because words are so powerful? Yes, I think so. Okay, well that's it. Thanks for listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. No, I don't know, man. I have no idea because I feel like I'd have to become a completely different person. And here's a thought that I had when you were sharing. Like, there have been times and I've heard David recently share about this. Like during the communion times, I have experienced the joy of the Lord. so profoundly that I can't help but just feel utterly overwhelmed by like, not just laughter, although there is laughter, but just like absurd levels of joy. Like it's like dopamine hits on drugs. It's crazy. But I think one of the questions for me is like, are there examples of Jesus as a joker? One of the things that's so hard about Scripture being written from a couple thousand years ago is that I don't know that anyone can truly discern with accuracy that Jesus didn't say something and then wink or laugh, or express himself in some way that would have communicated to the audience that or the person he was with. Like, that was funny. You know, like there's a verse in Matthew twenty three, it says, you blind guides, you strain out a gnat, but swallow a camel. Like, did he say that? And then and then like kind of chuckle, you know, or like how absurd you are. You know, it's like I think, though, it's the kind of thing where I do need to start asking myself more. Am I building rapport with someone through my joking, or am I tearing them down and building myself up? If I'm building myself up, then that's a really easy and obvious you know. Of course that's not a Jesus thing. Like he would not be building himself up at the expense of tearing someone else down. And I think I do like the example I use in New Zealand, the poop example. I definitely have done that before. And that's not the only that's far from the only time that I've done that. So I've probably done that my entire life. But okay, I can give you an example of how I believe the Holy Spirit led me to use humor. This is some years ago, but we were trying to address in our show the whole idea of the biblical view of marriage. We're trying to communicate to a secular audience and crazy clubs the idea that you should not have sex before marriage, and the whole idea of marriage, because I felt like we were supposed to communicate that this, I believe, came from the Holy Spirit because I was asking God, how do I do that? And I felt like we should have this character in the show called Virgin Man. You know? And I think that was Holy Spirit inspired, you know, to have this crazy guy in yellow Speedos and a red cape running around yellow. He never wore yellow Speedos. Yeah. I don't remember what Speedos did. Were they? But what is he? Submarine man? Is he? No. Or he wore red Speedos with a V on it or something. Mr. submarine or an arrow? Was it an arrow? Mustard, dude. What did he wear then? Red speedos. Why don't you just say it, then? It's the other major condiment that he was representing. Okay, so he was wearing the red Speedos, if you will. Virgin man and condiment is. He is my superhero. He keeps me safe and pure. And when I lose control, he's virgin, man. And then virgin man would come and save me. And the people in the clubs thought it was hilarious. They loved it. We got very least you did. They did. Truly. And if you would be honest, the ones that didn't like it. Of course, if there were any church, I think it was a mixture of fear and curiosity. They would cheer and clap. We got one of our biggest applause, but we're addressing a serious issue and we could use humor to do it. The best way to disarm the audience in a way that they could hear the message often, is humor. And I feel like God has given me jokes in my communication to help the audience, to be able to hear a strong, hard spiritual truth. I think humor is something God really uses and has actually inspired me to use. Yeah, no, you're totally right. And I think that was a point that I wanted to make, which is that I resist this notion or this idea that can be that can creep into even my mind that, okay, well, the more pure I become, or the more like Jesus become, the more I have to surrender that part of me. That humor really belongs to Satan. And it's you know, we all know the obvious applications here. If you're using humor to hurt people or make them feel bad or criticize them. We all know that those things are just obviously wrong. And so then the simplistic application from that can be, okay, well then I just can't have humor. And of course, the more I think about that, the more I reject that, because that's just not the case. It's funny, clearly something of God. It's clearly a gift. I mean, I don't this this does not happen enough in my life, but I think you can all we can all point to times when you laugh so hard for good reasons that it's just it's it's cathartic. It's almost like I don't even know how to describe it. You know how we were talking about how maybe partying should be a spiritual discipline? I think good, wholesome laughter could practically be a spiritual discipline, because there is something so just great about it. Like when you just can't even you can't stop laughing. It's like the belly ache, laughter. Like when I was on tour and there was a guy, Kevin, I really love Kevin. And, uh, we thought I thought it'd be a really good idea. Like to have him sit. And then. Then I took a bottle of water and I was gonna, like, jump on it. And I just thought, oh, it just kind of lightly spray him. And so we're filming this thing, and I jump on the bottle and instead of lightly spraying him, it's just like a missile launch. Like like the cap hits him in the forehead and just covers him in water, and we're all just uncontrollably rolling on the ground laughing. And there is something that gets released in that, that nothing else can do other than that kind of pure, profound, awesome laughter. And so I wholesale reject the idea that Satan owns laughter. And we've all seen that in the context of comedians, right? It's like comedians will start out and it'll be so creative and so pure and so cool. And then they just kind of digress and it becomes crass and crude, and it feels like the inevitable Slope right where something that God really gave them a way of looking at the world and articulating something with timing and attitude and personality was so great. And then it just kind of digresses into something, regresses into something that is vile, and you laugh, but you laugh in a way that doesn't make you feel good in the same way. So all that to say, words are powerful. They obviously need to be used for good, but I reject the notion that Satan controls humor. And if anything, I think we need to lean more into being inspired by the Holy Spirit to do what you said, David. To find ways to laugh and to express joy, and to see life and the absurdities of life in a good way, and to laugh about those things. Because the answer here is not to become dull, lifeless Christians. That would be the opposite of what God would want for us. I think there's a principle, you know, I can have this evil side of me, you know, mocking side of me. Because teasing people in the Pierce family is a way of showing affection. So the more you like someone, the more you tease them. That's why I'm always teasing chat all the time, because I really like him. But when I picked up from someone that it doesn't make them feel good, then I should stop doing it now. My evil side wants to even do it more, you know? So it's like. It's like, you know, when you could tell that someone really doesn't like it, then something inside me wants to do it even more. You know, I'm the same. Are you the same way? It's like when you feel like they don't. They don't like it. Especially when it's my wife. Yeah. So that's that's that's never a good, good thing. But it's it's like this. I just want to it's just like, okay, from now on, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna. Well, it's like it reminds me of when I because I, I am a, uh, I would say that there is a certain skill to give nicknames. Not everyone has it. And I'm just gonna be honest and humble, I do. Me too. I've given many, many, many nicknames. What's my nickname? Chad. The thing about nicknames is they're a little bit like songs. You can't. I call you chard a lot, but, uh, that's true. That's old. But yeah, you're right, you can't force it. It's usually some moment or some context or something, but I've had nicknames that are so ingrained that you know that when a person who's not even connected to you or them calls them that, that you've won. Like I had a friend in high school, his name was Nick Lombard, and he was a big, burly South African guy. But I called him Klaus. I don't know why. Just sort of like Klaus. Oh, yeah. That is a nice hat, Klaus. And I get a call from my buddy's dad, who is the pastor of our local church, saying, oh, hey, Ben. Um, yeah, I was looking for Klaus number, and I'm like. And it took me. I'm like, Klaus. And he's like, yeah, yeah, Klaus Lombard. And I'm like, Klaus. Oh, Nick. Yeah, yeah, yeah, dude. And I didn't call him dude because he was my dad. My my friend's dad slash pastor. Great. And Harvey, shout out to the graden. Um, anyway, I don't know why I said that other than did I have. Well, you know, Ben, you know, you've really succeeded at the at the nickname thing when you get a nickname of the nickname, you know. So like we call our. That's called a nickname. Infinite regress. Like we call our drummer Kippy, you know, which means little chicken. Yeah. In Dutch. And then now people call him like, where's Kipster? Where's, you know, he gets like Kip. Yeah. Kip tard. Yeah. So and but you know, you've really hit a home run when there when the mother calls them a nickname. That's, that's that's a real that's the sacred holy Grail. It is. You can get the mother. The mother, the mother. That's right. So I don't know what that has to do with anything, but I guess the thing is, if you have to mock, because I know a lot of the listeners here, are you going? But I have to mock somebody. Here's a way to relieve that. We want to give people tools here tips, tools and trades the three R's. So if you just feel like I gotta mock somebody, you can always mock. You can always mock thyself. You see what I mean? Figure out ways to mock yourself and it will help with the pressure. Of course, you still need to mock other people from time to time, of course. But. But I do think that, of course you do have to from time to time. I was just in, um, where was I? Are we already done? I was in Manchester, in the UK. And you know what I discovered? I know why Luke is so nice. Manchester. Because people in the UK are nice. I mean, they're always, like, really friendly and like, oh, would you want some tea or whatever? Would you like a cup of tea? They're all wearing like these really nice slacks because I wonder that about Luke, you know. Oh, I wear these little slacks in the little cheeky. You know, I have the little pants with no pockets on the back. Did you say pants? Are we talking about France or are we talking about the UK? Now I get why Luke is so nice. It's not his fault. It comes from being English. He can't help it. Do you guys have anything serious to add, or have we already just moved on? Is that it? No. I've probably canceled myself like, five thousand times on text threads. With no doubt you have more you can add. it. But I think that I think this has been a big encouragement to everyone. Um, so, you know, I think they're warmly encouraged by this conversation. Yeah. All right. Well, we should probably wrap it up. Uh, this has been an interesting, very interesting combo platter conversation. Some serious, some fun. Uh, but we really appreciate you guys for, uh, for sticking with us. And, uh, Chad, we're glad you're here. We're not letting you out of your thirty year contract just yet, so don't get any ideas. No. All right, we gotta go. I love you guys. Great conversation, provoking inspire podcast. For more info and everything. That's it. We'll talk to you next time. Peace.