Brandon McGuire (Daily Dose of Wisdom) on Why We Avoid God

All right. I'm already. I'm already blessed. The hours already worthwhile. Just based on that prayer. Thank you. Yeah. Of course, man. And look, we're already recording here. But as I always say, when I do these things, like, I sincerely mean it not as a platitude that the world does not need my voice. And I'm sure as a content creator and as someone who puts out great content, you probably also, on some levels, wrestle with that sense of like, man, in this noise filled, content saturated world. What do I add? Can I add something of value? I think we all wrestle with that paradox on some levels, right? I don't even wrestle with it. It's just obvious to me that the world does not need my voice. It's not even it's not even a question. It's. And I think maybe even to a fault, like a lot of the content that I do reflects that, where it's like, if I'm going to be saying something in a video that also has John Lennox and Christopher Hitchens and all these other people, like, I better come in and out and have and have actually been of some value in that process. So I'm totally with you there. Yeah. Well, let me let me just say it from my vantage point. God has equipped you for this, and he has been using you in powerful and profound ways. And I'm not just saying that to flatter you. And for those who are going, who is this? What are we doing here? So this is Brandon McGuire. Uh, you have the incredibly popular. I mean, let's just call it what it is YouTube channel, daily dose of wisdom. And God, as I said, is using you. You can give a little bit of context, maybe give a little bit of explanation, like I wrote to you earlier, I would love and I know the audience would love to hear a little bit about your story, because I know that deeply impacts who you are now, obviously, but also what you do now. So maybe you could just explain a little bit about who you are. And one of the things I was saying before we started recording is I go back and forth between having a mustache, and I just feel like I picked the worst possible time to be two weeks into my mustache. I just, I feel like I'm already so far behind. I feel like I'm mustache in training because I think you have the best mustache on the internet. And, uh, that's just that's hilarious. You should see my dad. He's got it for, like, forty plus years strong. And I think I'm only up to, like, fourteen. So I got a long road ahead of me on that. On that front, what does the road look like? I mean, where else is there possibly to go from here? You just never give up. You just got to stay the course, you know? Don't get just put those thoughts, you know, take those thoughts captive that would tempt you to do anything. Otherwise just stay the course. Trends will come and go. Fashions will come and go. Stay the course. Yeah, I tried that with skinny jeans, but my wife was like, dude, I'm sorry, but that that trend must go. Yeah, look, I honestly give up because I don't know what it is, but I'll have some speaking opportunity or I'll be in front of some church, and there's just a voice in my head that says they're not going to take you seriously with this thing, and I don't know what that is. So. So I'm going to take what you're what you're saying. I'm going to take that to heart, and I'm going to persevere because fourteen years, that is that is impressive. And you got to think about those fourteen years also includes some really negative connotations. And then oh, it's cool again and then some more really negative connotations. You know I think people can fill in the gaps there. So yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well this is probably quite enough on the mustache. So dude, if you don't mind giving a little context of your, your journey, I think it would absolutely greatly set the stage for everything else we're going to talk about. Yeah. So, you know, the simplest way I can put it is that I really, really understand the person who wrestles with God and wrestles with things that they read in the Bible and go, wait a second, how does this make sense? Right. And my my story in a nutshell is that I was raised in a Christian home, was, you know, sort of fed a lot of things and then not that I had to, but I did end up having to like, at least from my perspective, I felt that I needed to put all of that on the table and really kind of deconstruct what I needed to deconstruct, keep what I needed to keep and reconstruct what I needed to reconstruct. And that was a process that was roughly like a year and a half long for me, basically like during the beginning of my time in college. But it was a real thing. It was like, is have I been brainwashed? Basically like, like, do I do I believe in this God that I have been taught about for so long? Um, and yeah, there's a lot of aspects of that story I could tell, but essentially it really came down to like two doctrines that that I just could not reconcile in my mind. One was the doctrine of, well, I guess what would be called like double predetermination or double election, where it's like there are literally people whose initial godly design is to be a vessel of wrath, and there is literally nothing that they could ever do to get out of that. And when you combine that doctrine with eternal conscious torment, um, it's really it's a really, really hard pill to swallow. Yeah. The godly reason for your existence is to be eternally consciously tortured. And there's nothing you can do about it. And as I thought more through that, you know, and I don't want to go. I usually stay on, like, mere Christianity as much as possible. But I only say this because I know a lot of other people have probably come to that same position and gone, wait a second. Like there's something about the combination of these two doctrines that seems to be and I should I should keep that a little bit at arm's length, because we see in part in, in know in part, and there will be a time where we'll see him face to face and all things will be more clear. But from where I sit now, I just think to myself, this really appears to fly in the face of the God of the gospel, the God who's willing to go the farthest possible distance and to give of his own, uh, life for his creation. This really seems to be like two different portrayals of God, right? And so this is this is one of the. And there's a lot of other things too. You know what's going on in Genesis. Like why why is the tree there in the first place? And like, you know, there's a lot of, like the normal things that you kind of end up wrestling with or like, you know, even the problem of evil, like, why, if God is really good, really powerful, really loving, why is the world the way that it is? Why do things just seem to be broken at basically every single level? And so, um, yeah, I mentioned all this just to say I really understand the people who are in rebellion against God, or who just feel like I almost don't even care if you are real, because I, I wouldn't even want to worship you if you were based on my calculus. Like, it doesn't even matter whether like that you exist. It's like I'm basically not interested because I've determined, based on my understanding that you are a moral monster, as I think Richard Dawkins put it in Paul Copan played off of. Yeah. So basically, I get it. I totally get it. And, uh, for me, it was, uh, a number of things like that and, and kind of going through, like I said, uh, maybe like sixteen month long period, um, like mentally wrestling through all these things. But also I would say, like the one thing that maybe I did right is I did take all these things to God, like, can you help this make sense to me? Um, I'm holding on by a thread here. Um, but what am I missing? Like. Like how? Like if you are, if you are not this monstrous character that I'm beginning more and more to believe that you are. Can you help me understand that? Um. And he did. And it wasn't in a in a way of like solving an equation in a different way. Although I do now have a lot more answers to all those questions than I did at the time. But it was through those prayers and through people and through a process and through like getting my theology screwed on a little bit more straight, um, Um, holistically coming around to realize like, no, no, no, like like it's actually logically, first of all, it's logically necessary that God exists and and then who is this God? And then you kind of go down the path. And so that's the that's the intellectual side of it. But more than that, God, the simplest way I can put it is God graciously revealed himself to me in a way that is totally undeniable. That's and I know that sounds crazy to some people, but just if you know, you know, and it's and it's not just like, oh, I had, you know, I had the perfect combination of ingredients in my meal and I had this really vibey experience. It's like, no, you you recognize that you are confronting ultimate reality himself and in the light of his glory and grace and perfect love, that is in those moments of worship being poured out toward you specifically, like an infinite ocean of love. You just. It is. It is the realest, clearest, purest, most persuasive, most powerful, most undeniable experience that you can possibly have. And I was blessed to have, uh, and again, this didn't come out arbitrarily or by accident. This came out by seeking God with all of my heart. And that's what the Scripture said. If you seek me, you will find me if you seek me with all of your heart. And I said, okay, then let's do this thing. Yeah. And at the end of that process, um, again, just undeniable and like, and it wasn't like this one time thing. It was just, you know how it is, right? Like, it's just those those moments where you're like, God is literally real. And he's here and he is the greatest. Yeah. So, um, that's how it went in a nutshell. Um, and then it's like, okay, so we're going to be we're going to be in this thing together. Then, uh, I do still have a lot of questions that I need, and I need help. And so then the pursuit continued. But I like the way I'm reading this book. The The Pursuit of God by A.W. Tozer. We're reading this right now in the Wisdom Society, which is an online community that I run, and we have a book club component to that, and we're reading this book and he has this amazing insight in this book. He says it's because we've found him, that we seek him. And that's exactly what it is. It's because I've tasted and seen that you're good, that I desire to come back to the banquet again and again and again. And so it is it is interaction with God that propels somebody back to God. Who is this God we serve? You are you are other than us. You are high and lifted up. You are nothing like anything else that I've ever known or experienced. And yet we see through a glass darkly. I want more of you. I want to understand more about who you are. I want to learn how to love you better with my heart, soul, mind and strength. And that's I mean, that is literally a lifelong process. That's the process of sanctification. Um, but it's the greatest journey and the greatest adventure you can ever go on. And just like when you're dating somebody and you're like, I don't know about this person and you're both kind of on the rocks and you're both on the fence and like, the relationship's not really going very good at that point where everyone's just being vetted constantly and, and every action is being scrutinized to the highest degree. Once you're like, you know what? I'm in it to win it with you. Um, there's going to be things that are going to come, but I'm I'm literally in it to win it with you. Um, there's such a there's such a difference. Um, there. And and again, all of this, none of this is bragging on me. This is all by God's grace. But eventually I came to that place where it's like I've looked and I've found. Yeah. And there's. And there's no one like Jesus. I've tasted and seen that the Lord is good for myself. God is no longer a mere character in a book called the Bible, or a person from history in the form of Jesus from Nazareth. He is risen, active, and literally existentially. My favorite thing my the my best thought, my my highest endeavor. Like like he he literally is the most valuable thing in existence. And somehow I understood that at a certain point in time. Oh, you've always been the most valuable thing in existence. I'm now just dialed into that reality, and now I'm benefiting from it now that I'm no longer rebelling against it. This is amazing to be in unity with the source of my existence. Himself is an amazing thing. That again, sounds like a lot of words until you go there and you know what I'm talking about, and I know that you know what I'm talking about. So I'll. I'll leave it there. Yeah. No, I mean, there's so many great analogies that you hinted at. I really do think that the, the marriage or dating relationship analogy is really fitting. I remember hearing Tim Keller talk about how sure he was about his relationship with God, and he paralleled that to his relationship with his wife, which is that early on, it's scary. It's exciting. You have doubts, you have concerns. And the myth that Hollywood tells you is that everything feels right. It's perfect, it's beautiful, and you go for it, when in reality, often it's messy and scary, but you take that risk and you, you take that step of faith and then it becomes deep. Over time, it gets confirmed. There's emotions, but there's also intellect. It becomes whole, you know? And when you look back on the earlier stages of your human relationships, you recognize, wow, that was pretty superficial at that point. It is much more deep and robust now. Um, so I think that's a great analogy, but one thing that I heard you say that I think is so valuable in this whole apologetics space is around the idea of truth, because, you know, we think of apologetics as propositional truth, things that we have to begin to understand, or barriers, intellectual barriers we have to overcome. But I heard you couple something in such a simple way that I was like, I don't know why I hadn't been thinking of it like this, which is the idea that the truth will set you free and that Jesus describes himself as the truth. So in other words, it's not propositional truth that sets you free. It's the embodied truth as represented by Jesus. So when, as you said, you chose to pursue him, and then in so doing, he began to satisfy not just that spiritual need, but then, of course, all the intellectual needs you had as well. So can you talk about why that's such an important distinction? Because I think we can get all the things up in here and somehow miss Jesus in the process. Yeah, I think it's simple. I think it's that all propositional truth is about something, and God is the source of all aboutness. God is always prior, and so all roads are literally leading to him. And the only alternative to that is that you will face some dead end that you end up calling a brute fact, but actually doesn't, uh, does not suffice. It doesn't actually like, um, check the box of the principle of sufficient reason to use like a leibnizian term. Like it just isn't a real explanation, but you just have to posit it as a brute fact. There just is this or there is that. But if you are willing to consider that beyond what looks like a dead end or a brute fact, there is an actual explanation and the dozens of different brute facts that are currently in the conversations around apologetics, be it consciousness or the beginning of the universe or anything in between. Have a home just beyond the dead end sign like the all roads merge correct at God and he, if if understood rightly, is a sufficient reason for everything else, he actually explains reality in a literally unique way, like nothing else explains reality other than God. But God efficiently, sufficiently, necessarily and perfectly explains reality. And there are a couple things in there that that are also like, well, what about this? What about this counterfactual? What about the problem of evil? What about this? What about that? And that's all great. And those are all good conversations to have. But I'm but I'm talking about just to go back to what you said there. I'm talking about how all propositional truth is about something, and there is nothing unless there is God. There is. There is literally nothing unless there is God. Nothing plus nothing equals nothing. God plus nothing equals everything. And so all truth, all propositional truth is, each and every individual propositional truth is a different stepping stone, pointing you back to the ultimate source of all things. Yeah, yeah. And it makes me think that, you know, with all of the what I would argue, spiritual curiosity among deep intellectual thinkers of all kinds today and even curiosity of Jesus and Christianity. I think that might, might explain why in some ways, for all the steps a lot of these figures seem to take, the Alex Oconnors, the Joe Rogan's, the Jordan Peterson's, for all the steps they seem to take. It is not the same thing as pursuing Jesus himself, right? Like it's almost impossible to even kind of deal with some objections and assent to some ideas, and still never quite leap over that chasm to relationship. Does that make sense? It does. And I love that you're kind of just going straight to Jesus. And they're like, we have jumped the gun a little bit there, but it's kind of good that we have because we're like, all cards are on the table. And this is actually really interesting. So, uh, what is his name? Um, initially, Anselm has the ontological argument that has actually had some really good rebuttals to it in its original form. But more recently, Alvin Plantinga has a improved, if you will, a new and improved version of it. That's just it's really powerful when it's understood and it's I'm not even gonna, um, go into it here because it's too nuanced and it will take up. It will take up too much of our time. But it basically the piece of it that I want to highlight here is essentially the idea that, um, if God does exist. He exists as a maximally great being. That is what we're talking about when we're talking about God. Like I said, always prior, not in the creation, not not a object among among many objects, but the source of all things, the measuring stick of all, of all values, etc.. So and if you think, well, I think of that, I think of God plus one. And then that's actually what you mean when you talk about God. So he is he is a maximally great being. Okay. The question is, is it possible for a maximally great being to not reveal himself to a creation that is capable of relationship with him? So so think about that for a second. If you are the maximally great being, if you are the source of goodness, love, joy, beauty, etc., is it better or worse to share the goodness of who you are with, with a creation capable of understanding it. And we would obviously say it's better. Don't leave us in the dark, bro. If you've got if you've got all the goods, like invite us in and that's what we want and that's what makes sense. And so it's the idea of like a maximally great being is not going to trick anybody, hide himself from anybody, keep keep anybody in the dark. He's got he's going to and this is how you get to Jesus. He's going to not only not only. So this is my entire thing is love creates. We actually see a metaphor of that between man and woman when two people love each other, when two people make love, creation happens like, yeah, like the byproduct of love is is creation. So like, love making is a creative act. And I believe that God, because he is love, creates. He creates in order to share. He creates in order to give. He creates in order to have a two way street of reciprocity and to be glorified, to be worshiped, which is also not prideful or not narcissistic. Because again, we're talking about a maximally great being who wants to share himself with another, who wants to show his handiwork and his creation, and who knows that he can give us nothing better than himself, that we will in fact be most satisfied when he is most glorified. And that that's not arbitrary. That's necessary. Yeah, there is no better gift than he can possibly give than than himself. And so you think about that and you go, well, okay, so who is this? Are we talking about Allah? Are we talking about, um, you know, this God over here? This god over there? Shiva. Vishnu. Who are we talking about? And this is where. I mean, you already went to Jesus, but. And a lot of really, really clear ways Jesus demonstrates towards us the life, the love, the sacrifice of what this maximally great being would be like. He's perfect in every way, but he's also in his action and his reason for coming in the first place. Consistent with the portrait that we get of the God of creation, a God who loves a God who desires to share himself with his creation, with people. Yeah. And Jesus, of all the other gods on the table, Jesus stands apart in that way because he is coming for the explicit reason of buying back mankind for himself, of bridging the gap that separates mankind from God, of, of literally atoning for, for, for the separation that exists, atoning for the sin that we have done, closing the gap that we have created. Yeah. Um, triumphing over the enemies that we have empowered. Pick your theory of the atonement. They're all beautiful. They're all amazing. And they all tell us something about what God is like. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. He's the clearest picture that we have of what God is like. And what I love about reading through the Gospels is there's no contradiction there at all. You're like, wow, man. Like, this is the point that I would love like a seeker to come to is to the point of saying, man, if Jesus was God, that would be awesome. I wish that were true. Yeah, if he was like that, that would be great. That would be great. And if you get to that point of like, basically, I want Christianity to be true, I just I just don't believe that it is. I'm just not convinced of it for intellectual reasons. I believe that if you want Christianity to be true, uh, first of all, if you understand it correctly, you will want it to be true. And second, if you want it to be true, you will see that it is true in time, because there won't be any cognitive dissonance or friction or any, um, hardness of the heart that's blocking you from accepting the greatest story ever told, basically. Right? So you would say that if the Alex O'connors of the world are honestly pursuing this maximally great being, if they are studying the life and character of Jesus and ultimately recognizing that, wow, he aligns with my intuitions about what's true in the fabric of reality and how things actually work. That if they continue along that journey honestly, they will ultimately find Jesus. Or at least because even as you said, there's that tension, right? I, I want him to be true, but I just can't. What is that leaping off point? What does that look like? Even if you intellectually go, yes, I think Jesus is a great picture of what God might be. Yeah. I'm going to go back to what I said earlier, which I believe to be fully true. Um, where God says, if you seek me, you will find me if you seek me with all your heart. Right? I really think that's what it is. Um, now, that's different from, you know, this idea of a non-resistant nonbeliever. I don't buy it. Yeah. I'm sorry, I don't buy it. I don't think that exists. I think that's a fancy rhetorical or, um, not even rhetorical, but, like, um, argument device, sleight of hand. Yeah, yeah. I do not believe that that exists. I don't think there's any such thing as a non-resistant nonbeliever. I think that there's that. There's self-deceived people who believe that they're non-resistant non-believers, but I don't believe that that actually exists. Hmm. So how do you patiently journey with someone who describes himself in that way? Maybe not using that intellectual term, because I don't think everyone has the words to describe it like that the way an Alex O'Connor would, but yeah. How do you patiently work with somebody like that? I think it totally depends on the person. I think this is where it comes down to something that's purely individual. Because if somebody if I were to talk to myself during when I was really going through it, um, I would have maybe tried to help with some of the doctrinal questions that I had at the time and that and that may have helped. It also could have just pushed me further away, potentially, because the reality was I was facing certain things that I believed were true. And that was informed. That was how do I say this? That was causing my will to be against God like I like I said, I don't care if you're true. I don't care if I'm getting hit with the best apologetics ever. And I was like, watching, you know, I was like, I was kind of on both sides. I was kind of like watching things from all perspectives at that time. Oh darn it, that's a really good argument he just made. But but I'd be like, but that still doesn't explain this, right? Like just just because it is logically necessary that there is some, you know, uncaused cause that an infinite regress, just use one example is literally like an actual infinite regress is impossible to to traverse. And I know someone listening to this is going to push back, and there's going to be a confusion about theoretical infinity versus actual infinity. And I'm going to say like, no, no one has ever explained how you can traverse an actual infinity. And so man, that's a really good argument. That's a really good argument actually. Um, they're like, the buck has to stop somewhere. There has to be some cause for for everything. But it's not God because. So maybe it's maybe it's, you know, maybe it's, uh, you know, multiverse, which actually doesn't solve anything. But basically you start wiggling when you don't want it to be God. And, and and in particular, when you're offended by things in the Bible, you not only start wiggling, but you. A lot of times I see people kind of go on the offensive and basically be like, I'm I'm now making it my life mission to tell other people about the things that I'm offended by in the Bible. You know? And honestly, I think I very easily could have become that person and could have had a YouTube channel about that at one point. Um, so I think, in short, to answer your question, I think it depends entirely upon the person, and I ultimately think it is a spiritual thing. Like, I don't I don't think anybody's going to find God at the at the end of an equation. Like I found the perfect equation and equal sign. God, I don't think anybody's going to find God under a microscope or or in a telescope. Those are all category errors. Its god is spiritual. Yeah. And, um, the reality of C is very, very significant. If someone is in the mindset of moral relativism, of not believing that sin is a factor, well, if sin isn't a factor, then pride isn't a factor. And if pride isn't a factor, then pride isn't a problem. And as long as that is your blind spot where you don't recognize your own bias in the in the equation, it's going to be really hard for you to recognize, like the need for humility as sort of, I would put it, like the portal into relationship with God. Like he actually does have his own terms, again, not for any arbitrary reason, but because he created us in a particular way that is a capable of knowing him and be capable of rebelling against him and the rebellion against him is that core piece to a human being, that pride that rises up that says, I don't want anybody over me. Like C.S. Lewis brilliantly said, we want a heavenly grandfather. we don't want Heavenly Father. We don't. We want we want someone to come in occasionally and give us presents. Take us to the beach, you know, give us. Give us a good time. If there's anybody up there. We want a heavenly grandfather. We don't want anybody that actually is like training us, teaching us, speaking to us, putting any kind of rules around us, etc. so I think that those, those interpersonal, psychological, moral, spiritual reasons are probably equal, if not more weighty than any particular unanswered question. Yeah. Yeah. And the conversation's evolving, right. Because, you know, if we're talking about the New Atheist era, there was an almost stark admission by a lot of people that, no, there is no big T truth, there is no objective morality. And in some ways, we've kind of retreated into this, have our cake and eat it too version of it where we've kind of made spirituality kind of popular again and, you know, with drug use and meditation and mindfulness. But it's pseudo humility, right? Because it claims to be sort of universal and its ideals and its, uh, some sense of subjectivity in it all, but really just lurking just beneath that superficiality is still that baseline. I'm in control. Like, I'm the arbiter of truth, even if I kind of hide behind this thin veil of, like, spiritual openness. Have you found that is a growing thing? And how has that sort of changed the way you feel like you have to interact rather than with these hard line, you know, classic apologetics? What about the spiritually open but still unwilling to commit on any level type of person that seems to be growing in popularity? Yeah, I think it's kind of amazing. I think it's a really good thing, actually, like the direction that things are heading, because both both in the sort of academic circle and in the just pop culture circle, you actually have the same thing happening where on the academic side, people are more and more kind of coming around to denying materialism, and they're kind of saying, hey, what about like panpsychism? What if like, everything is gone? Or hey, what about like, idealism, you know, or what about. And you're starting to see like, well, what are the reasons that you're, that you're thinking that. And then they start to tell you and you're and you kind of go, yeah, I agree with you. That's that's that's right. Like or even like simulation theory. Why are you saying why are you saying that. What's what is causing you to think about that? We're in a simulation. Well, this and this. And they start giving all this evidence and you go, aha. Yeah. We've been saying that for a long time. We've been saying that for a really long time. Or, you know, people are really into the whole like Annunaki, like panspermia, uh, you know, hypothesis. And it's like, what's causing you to say that? Like what's what's causing you to say that we were seeded on this planet? I mean, Richard Dawkins said that that's a possibility. Richard Dawkins literally said, maybe we were seeded here by aliens. Well, why are you saying that? You're saying that because you see that there are unanswered, unexplained questions at the origin of life that really don't add up from a pure materialist, uh, like a foundation. It just it just doesn't add up. And so and again, someone might say, oh, God of the gaps, you're, you know, you're. Well then if it's God of the gaps, then it's Dawkins alien of the gaps. But but it's really not. It's really just saying. It's just saying like this would explain the origin of life on planet Earth, and we don't have any other explanation. Yeah. So so, you know, I think it's great that the conversation is expanding, like you said, beyond just kind of like the harsh, like, God versus science and like, materialism rules the day because materialism has all kinds of not even gaps, but just all kinds of problems. I mean, it's it's extremely, um, insufficient at explaining the breadth of reality. And so for that reason, you see more and more people kind of opening themselves up to, well, what if. If there is consciousness, if consciousness is real, like if consciousness is not material, if it coming about as an emergent property doesn't that that also hasn't been proven, then where does it come from? And then all of a sudden people are like, well mind begetting mind. Okay. That's interesting. So maybe the universe is conscious, maybe the universe is. So all these all these types of things I think are good, and then they trickle down to the popular level where you have, like you said, people basically dissatisfied, like just your average person is just like, man, materialism sucks. Yeah, materialism is so boring. And it really is. It's just it's so depressing. It's so boring. It's so insufficient at explaining the human experience. It just it just sucks at every level. And I think enough people are feeling that, that they're like, what if. Okay. So spirituality. Yeah. Or maybe like Annunaki Anunnaki stuff. Yeah. Or maybe panpsychism. Yeah. Um, but but to your point, inside of all that is, is where how can I both be open to where, like, what I'm clearly presented with in my experience as a human, which is that there's more than just matter, right? But without having to go all the way to this whole Bible God, Christian version of things. Aha! Maybe I am God. Maybe. Maybe I need to meditate. Maybe divinity is within myself. Actually, wait, I actually love the sound of that. Yeah, I like this a lot. Maybe. Maybe I'm God. Maybe. Maybe the universe is God. Maybe I'm a part of the universe. Maybe I am you as he as she and we are all together. Like the Beatles said. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. That's great, you know? So it makes so much sense how someone can get there in terms of how that appeals to, like, our, uh, pride. But I also think it's worth noting that there is a gigantic problem with scientific material, or really just materialism on the on the whole that causes someone to go there like it sucks to live under and it doesn't answer questions very well. And so now you have this, this like forking of the road and a bunch of different directions. And it's kind of like the Wild West in a lot of ways. And people are like, oh, what's true? Where do we go from here? There's, there's there's more going on than we thought. We're not in Kansas any longer. And so I think that's a great place for, for us Christians to interact and to be able to say like, hey, this is really cool. You're you're actually now thinking along similar lines, asking really good questions. Um, let's talk about this idea of logos, right? Like, what is that? Let's talk about this idea of consciousness. Let's talk about this idea of of spirituality or even the idea that you have a divine spark. That's really interesting to me. Right? What about that? Do you like. Because there's there's something very similar to that that I like that's actually written about a long time ago, you know. And so I just think there's all kinds of great conversations to be had and dots to be connected that are legitimate ways that we can actually come alongside and stand shoulder to shoulder with people and be like, yeah, that's like, I agree with you. I totally agree with you here. But there is also a problem with with you being God, you know, and then we can kind of talk about that. But it's like I like the basis, like the basis is there, the ground is shared. Let's like the critique, the critique of materialism is shared. And then, well, where do we go from here? Let's talk about that. Yeah. No for sure. I think this has led to, I think, a cultural moment that has allowed us to be have a lot more spiritual conversations and easy and easy open ways. Again, it comes with a whole new set of challenges, right? In that it's kind of like trying to pin jelly to the wall, like you think you're agreeing, but then ultimately there's no All sense of wanting to commit to anything solid. And yet what I've at least found, and I'm curious how you'd react to this, is that I think people are there more intuitively aware that when you give them the opportunity to contemplate that, like, for example, the idea that I'm God, when you really think about the arrogance of that idea and the fallibility of human beings, you know, I can say to someone in the same sentence, you know, I can kind of walk them through this idea that how limited do you think your knowledge is or your power is, or how strong is your moral character? Almost everyone will admit that they make mistakes. And then in the very next sentence, couple that with this idea that they also are God. At the same time, I think they'll quite intuitively recognize the absurdity of that. But even this disembodied spirituality, I think, exposes itself as being hollow very quickly. I was talking to a guy, we tried this wild experiment where we did a podcast on the side of a university street without permission. We just set up a podcast and invited students to have spiritual conversations. And it was incredible. And I ended up talking to one guy, and he was an artist, and we connected on that level. But he kind of talked about this idea. Well, you know, maybe there's some sort of vague spirituality. And, you know, I was able to take that into the realm of suffering because I think suffering is a very good litmus test for sort of how robust your worldview is. And I and I said, you know, let me ask you a question when, when life is really, really hard, like when you're going through something incredibly difficult, do you need the concept of a friend or do you need a friend? Like, do you need a person that could wrap their arms around you and cry with you and bring you food like. And he looked at me, he's like, well, yeah, I need the thing. I need the I need the real thing. I don't. And I'm like, man. In the same way, this sort of nebulous spiritual idea, this circular, there's meaning because I say there's meaning, there's morality because I say there's morality, this disembodied spirituality. I think it's not too hard for an open mind to recognize how ultimately vacuous that is, right? That you need more than the concept of justice. You need justice. You need more than the concept of hope. You need real hope. And in a disembodied way, I just don't think that really delivers. I think it's a phenomenal point. Um, you reminded me I was talking to a student at UNC one time. I did a little event with Cliff and Stuart kinetically. Oh, right. And it was so much fun. And, uh, I was talking to this student, and the conversation kind of came right to the point that you're making, and I and I basically asked him, I said, um, because he was like, I don't I don't want to give God a name. I don't want to pin it down. Let's not get too specific. Like it's just something. And I said, well, think about this for a second. Imagine if right now there was like a I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but like a, a school ping pong, uh, you know. Yeah. And, uh, I actually jump in front, and I. And I take a bullet for you, like, I do that in the real world, and it actually saves your life. And then I visit you at the hospital, and I'm like, dude, I'm so happy. Like, you're you're, you know, or you visit me at the hospital or whatever, and we're talking and you go, oh, yeah, man, um, it's just so crazy. And you never, you never say thank you for taking a bullet for me. Like, I would actually be really offended. I would be like, hey, wait a second. I specifically did this for you. And so that that's a real thing and that matters. So if you're if you're just sort of saying like, ah, yeah, some kind of god, the subtext to that is you're saying that that Jesus is not God. You're saying you're saying something, but not Jesus. But, but, but but he was trying to have it both ways and go like, no, I love Jesus. I'm open to Jesus. I think Jesus is great, but I just don't want to be restrictive. I just think it's like, you know, Jesus is like a god amongst many gods or the first Christ conscious person or, you know, and it's like, well, wait, but that's not what Jesus said. Jesus said that he came, that you might have life and have life more abundantly. He said specifically to take to take your yoke and attach it to him, to take your way of living and live his way of living. Because his way of living is, is, is easy and his burden is light. And he specifically said that he came to take away the sins of the world. He said, no one takes my life from me, but I lay it down willingly. So he he came for those reasons. To reduce him to a mere moral teacher is is an offense in the same way that it would be offensive to me if I'm like, dude, I literally jumped in front of a bullet for you. And Brandon did that. Not like you said. The idea of a fringe jumping in front of a bullet for me. Brandon did that for you, and Jesus did that for you also. Literally. Jesus, right? Took a bullet for you. Not the universe. Verse. Not something inside of yourself that you need to meditate harder to find, you know. So. So I think it's I think it's a great point that you're making. Yeah. And I think we recognize that from within the context of our own experiences. And I know you spoke to the idea that, um, everything in your life, this is a paraphrase, but to the degree that when you start to pursue Jesus and give your life to him, there's no friction, right? Because he is the author of all things and he is the author of all realities. And I, I don't know about you, but I'm sure as a content creator, when you discover a secular person saying a spiritual truth about the way God created things, it's always like, yes, that's like that's exactly the overlap you're looking for. Because it's like, well, yeah, we there's this book. It's it's been there all along. We've kind of known that. And I what I would say is that one of the most profound things every human being needs is to be known, fully known and fully loved. That's what we deeply desire, because I think in the world, the way we present ourselves is that we think, well, I can't be fully loved if I'm fully known. So I hide myself and I mask myself. And sadly, we even see that in the church. And that's tragic, obviously. But deep down, I think even the marriage analogy is an attempt at that, which is I'm going to tether myself to you. You are going to see me like unlike anyone else. And the ones that last are the ones that choose to love me nonetheless. Right. And that's what we desire in the most transcendent sense. And the only person that can fully know me and fully love me is Jesus. Right. He's the only one capable of that. And so. So I think when I point to that desire, almost everyone I've talked to says, yes, but that doesn't square with a ambiguous spiritual force that has to be embodied within a real person, in a person that created people himself, people in his image so that they could have that fulfilled in him. So again, I don't know what your thoughts are on that, but I just feel like there are so many parallels that are deeply embedded in our intuitions about our human experience that in and of themselves, refute this ambiguous spirituality that people like to cling to. Yeah, I think some thread that's kind of going throughout all of what we're talking about here is the idea of relevancy. Like until a person recognizes that God is actually relevant to their life, they're just never going to have enough interest for for them to take any action on it. So as long as it's like things are good, I don't need this. It's not. It's like, uh, and and by the way, I'm offended by x, Y and Z. Um, or I don't understand x, y and z. Then it's like, okay. Case closed. Yeah. Um, I think it's and this is this was also true of me in my story, but I think this is true of everybody. Um, until a person recognizes that the problem of evil is not only exterior, but it's also interior. They will not understand the relevancy of Jesus. It's the point when you go, okay, that's bad and that's bad and that's bad, you're looking out at the world. I don't like that. I don't like that. I don't like that. I wish this was different. I wish this was different. That's broken. That's broken. And then and then you start to say, okay, well, what what is this thing that we're all talking about that we don't like, that we wish was different, that we're calling broken? What is that? I love the way C.S. Lewis put it. He said, what are we calling this universe unjust against? What are we measuring things against in order to call them unjust? Like where are we getting this standard of justice from? Where are we getting the standard of perfection? From that, we're measuring the entire reality that we have against it doesn't make sense. So what is that standard. And and that's the first point. And then the second point is when a person goes, um, oh, it's not only that the world is falling short of the standard of perfection or justice. I also have, in other words, I am a part of the problem of evil. Yeah, that that to me is like the, the big thing like is if if a person is willing to recognize I am a part of the problem of evil. Um, I'm a part of the reason that the world is how I wish that it wasn't. Then you go, well, are we all just screwed? Yeah. Or is there any solution? Like, is there actually a way that things get better? Is there actually hope? And again, at the broadest possible level, and in my own heart, is there any hope for the world? And is there any hope for me? Yeah. Or are things just as they are. Do we just evolutionarily desire things that are different than what they are? And that's how we move forward into a better future? Well, that hasn't really worked out very great so far. We got the atomic bomb and we killed a lot of people with it, you know, and on and on. Right. Like like mere knowledge, mere technology doesn't make us better people. And so I think that's where, again, to your just to your point of what we were talking about there and just the idea of relevancy like that is, I think where the chickens come home to roost is when you realize, okay, two have died. Jesus is claiming to be God and is claiming to have died for the very thing that I hate in the world the most, which is evil. So we can talk about whether it's true or not, but it's the most relevant possible thing for that reason, right? If the creator of all things has entered into the creation and came to take away the sins of the world, which is just another way of saying everything that's bad, everything that we don't like the sins of the world, right? Um, again, we can say, oh, did did he? Was it really effective? Did he really do it? You know, we can go into is the Bible trustworthy? We can go into all these other topics which are which all have great answers. But at the most basic level, I think it's important for someone to see if Jesus said He's God and if he said the reason that he's dying on the cross is to atone for the sins of the world, to make salvation available to each individual person, that is the most relevant single act in the history of humankind. That is, that is the single most relevant thing that has ever been done. And frankly, it's the only known solution to the problem of evil. Yeah. And also it's actually a little bit of an unexpected it takes a couple layers to actually understand why that particular solution, because I could see someone responding to this in their mind and going, well, why not just snap your fingers and eradicate all evil at midnight tonight? Just boom, no more evil, right? And this is where you go. Well, who's left at one a m? There's nobody here at one a m. We're we're all toast. We're all cooked. Yeah. So that's not a real solution. That's that's like the Thanos solution. And it wouldn't work. And it would have no redemptive arc to it. It would have no hope to it. It wouldn't work. So instead, he makes a way for every single individual person to become a part of the new creation, for old things to pass away and all things to become new. And he has this upside down, inside out kingdom he calls it, which is obviously an old school word, but it's the idea of a reality where he is at the center, a kingdom where he is the king, a reality that is different than the broken reality that we all hate. That is that is like a like picture the cross as a pebble being dropped in an ocean, and the ripples go out in all directions infinitely, and it slowly takes over everything until all bad things come untrue. And that really is what the gospel message is. It's not just that Christ died for the individual, but it's the individual makes up the church, which is the Bride of Christ, which is advancing a kingdom. And a day is coming when literally every tear is wiped away and all things are new. So he he is eradicating the problem of evil, salvation by salvation, person by person, as the lights come on for each individual and the kingdom advances. So yes, it's incremental. Yes. It's a little. Bit unexpected, but it's the only way that I can think of. And I would love to hear your thoughts about this. It's the only way that I can think of to respect people who are in his image and who actually have, like Will, who actually have like real choices to make and not just override everybody's will, in which case we're back to to Romeoville. Yeah. Um, and at the same time to say, I actually I'm planting seeds that are growing, uh, the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed. It looks really small, but it grows into a tree that's so big that all the, you know, all the birds of the air come and nest in its branches. And there's so many, like Jesus talks so much about this idea, um, a little bit of yeast, you know, uh, impacts the whole, um, you know, leavens the whole dough. Jesus was always talking in this symbolic ways about how he's doing something that is small, that is unexpected. That is not the what the Jewish expectation of of like a king coming and literally kicking everybody's butt like. Right. But but he's coming Meaning subversively, quietly, into an insignificant town in Bethlehem, as quiet as snow falling on a Christmas night. He enters in, uh, the author writing himself into the story discreetly. The whole thing is this beautiful, slow, redemptive arc that ends up making all things new. And it's honestly beautiful. Yeah. No. It is. And I think it perfectly captures that seeming paradox that I was alluding to, which is that, you know, any sort of bitterness towards the injustice out there that does not simultaneously recognize the contributions I daily make to that injustice is living in incongruence, internal dissonance. And people can feel that. They can feel that. I'm also part of this. I'm also part of the mess. Right. So then we have to, like, become our own gods. Because if I'm the arbiter of morality, then maybe I can somehow remove myself from that picture. but we can only outrun that for so long. And so what's so beautiful in the gospel is that while I was still yet a sinner, Christ died for me, right? And that to me is that perfect marrying of perfect knowledge and perfect love like God looks at me the way I look at my kids and he doesn't see perfect, but he says, I still love you anyway, and I can bring you hope beyond this place. And so I think that's what's so beautiful. And it's this beautiful arc embodied through an individual, right? We're not just part of some collective narrative yet. We are, but we're also individually seen and redeemed by the one that made us. And so that is where it is both small and glorious and magnificent at the same time, because it's it's happening in the whole world. It will happen in the whole world, but it's also happening in me. And the God of the universe actually sees me and still has a plan to redeem me despite this imperfect vessel that I now live in. So I think it's a beautiful thing, And I'm completely with you. And. And you said something that I know we're running out of time here. I want to respect your time, but are we really? Whoa. I know that was one hour. I know it's the look. That's the measure to me. That's the measure of the greatest conversation. So I. Dude, I thoroughly enjoyed this. Um, I feel like we're in the first quarter. This is crazy. I know, and to be honest, if we were going full Joe Rogan, we would be in the first quarter. Uh, but unfortunately, you know, I got I got kids at school I gotta pick up, but, um. No, but anyway, dude, I look, I really appreciate you. And I think maybe a thought to wrap up here for those who have kind of their heads swimming with all of this information, I do agree with you that this is ultimately spiritual and that there is a profound supernatural work that happens when we just preach the gospel. And for all of the complexities of the things we've attempted to unpack here so often, it's those moments when I look somebody else in the eye and I say, look, I can't convince you with words. But like you, like I hear in your story, I experience this and God revealed this to me. Yes, his perfect love for me, but also my desperate sinfulness and my need for saving. Um, how much of this ultimately, for as complex as we've made, it comes all the way back to the simplicity of the gospel and our willingness to share that with, I think, a world that's more open to hear it now than ever. Can I can I say one last thought? Yeah, please. I was hoping you would. Okay. Yeah. So just, um. Because I do think this is important is for the person who, in light of all of this, is maybe thinking you guys are kind of speaking to this broad, almost abstract idea of, like, all things get better in the end, but that does not address, you know, my mom who died last year, or the person on an island that has never heard about Jesus or, you know, we can think of these examples where the subtext of each of the examples is basically. But that is unjust. You guys are talking about justice and peace on earth and things getting better. But I know that is unjust and I know that is unjust. And the thing I would just want to say in closing here for the for the person who maybe had that thought or now that I've said it, now that now that you have that thought, um, is is that it is a mistake to take these types of few examples and use them to outweigh everything else that has clearly been revealed about God, not just in principle, but because God has specifically said his thoughts are higher than your thoughts, and no mind has conceived of the things that he has in store for those who are in Christ. And so we have to actually have a certain level of epistemic humility here to say we are not omniscient. If God is God, he is omniscient. He also has not promised us that he has given us a full, complete, clear picture of everything that he's doing and how he's doing it. In fact, he's explicitly told us he hasn't given us a full, complete picture of how everything is just in the end. He's literally in Scripture, literally says, we look through a glass darkly or a mirror dimly lit. We're seeing in part, but but there will be a day that will come when we will see completely. So all that I would say is, if we're seeing in part, then don't take any particular example of something that you go, but I don't understand this, or I don't understand this, and use it to tip the scale away from all the things that are revealed. In other words, if God is the God of the gospel, if Jesus is God, then he and even yeah, he is just. He is good. He his thoughts are higher than our thoughts. And if you can't quite figure out how that's going to play out, that's okay. Yeah, reserve a conclusion. But when you but when you say I don't understand the person on the island who hasn't heard about Jesus, that's unjust. Therefore God is unjust. You're making a huge mistake, right? It's extremely both intellectually arrogant. And you're missing the entire idea that, like, we explicitly haven't been given the total information and we could talk about why is that the case and the role of faith and whatever else in divine hiddenness and all these types of things. But the point is to have confidence that something that you're observing means that God is not just and therefore you're not interested is is a massive mistake. I just wanted to say that no. And that's I'm really glad you did. I remember a few years ago, um, we were in Ukraine performing a show, and this was actually when the smaller aspect of the war was going, not the larger, full on invasion that's happening right now. And I was talking to a couple of very bright, intellectual Ukrainians, and they essentially said that, you know, how can I believe in this God when he allows you guys to live in such peace and comfort. And here we are. And all this economic turmoil and this war that's happening, and essentially exactly that in such visceral, personal terms, you know, and I basically said, look, at that time, I just had one kid, my son, and he was pretty young. And I said, you know, I can't answer your question perfectly, but here's what I do know. I think about my own son and the infinite gap that exists between his understanding of the world and mine. And so often I do things that he doesn't get, you know, I limit his freedom. I say, don't eat this, don't run out on the road. And and, you know, of course I do that for his good. But that's just a tiny fraction of the gap that exists between my intellect and the God of the entire universe, by necessity. And I said, but here is what we do know. He sent the most valuable thing he had his son to earth. And I said, and if Jesus was here, he would know your names. He would know this little town that we're playing the show in. He would come all the way here just for you because that's who Jesus is. And and, you know, I'm not saying it was the perfect answer, but I think what it satisfied is it is it set their minds, our minds into the proper context of humility. But then under the broader, more important context that what we do know for all we don't is that God sent Jesus. And that is the most profound gift that really I think it's kind of I don't know what the perfect analogy is, but it's like we've been given the cheat code and we're complaining about some of these peripheral gaps in our knowledge. And I think God would say, what else do you need? Look what I've done to prove it. Exactly. The point is, because the gospel is so over the top, slanted in our favor, and God demonstrating his grace towards us and his goodness toward us, and literally dying for us, incarnating himself and dying for us while we were still sinners. That is a huge counterfactual that you should, that you should not. Yeah. So the way you said it is perfect. Like we know too much about God because of Jesus to look at some little thing that we don't understand and conclude that he isn't good or just or. And there's also philosophical problems with that, but we'll leave it at that for now. But I think I do think that is an important point, because I think a lot of people trip over some particular instantiation of evil that they don't understand, and they say God cannot be good or just because this thing that is a mistake. Yep, yep. And there's roots of the enlightenment and secular humanism and how, you know, maybe two hundred years ago, no one would be as arrogant as to question the moral decisions of the maximally great being. But here in twenty twenty five, I can criticize anyone and anything because I'm the arbiter of morality and the definer of truth, and that's a whole nother thing for a different day. But Brandon, this has been awesome. This conversation flew by. I so value your time. And like I said before we started, God is using you. And so my prayer and I know those listening, we're going to be praying that God continues to use you. I hope we can do this again, because I feel like we just literally scratched the surface of a million things we could talk about, and for the very least, we could just see you could hold me accountable to the mustache growth. And we could just together, we could strive for a day where mustaches outlast all whims and capricious dips and turns of fashion. That that would be my hope. Exactly. The original men definitely did not have any razors to, you know. So we're bringing it way back. That's all I'm saying. Well, let's just safely say you're bringing it way back, and I am lagging terrifyingly behind. But, dude. Thank you. Appreciate this. Uh, I'm going to hit the end record button to make sure your file uploads. So don't jump off right away. Um, but, man, appreciate it. And, uh, let's do it again soon. Yeah. Thanks for having me on. It was

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