Are You Willing to Learn From Enemies? | AJ Swoboda

What if Christians were known as the most humble and teachable people in the world? Imagine the impact that that would have on how others see us, and the doors it would open for them to actually listen to what we have to say. On today's episode, I had the privilege of speaking with author and professor AJ Zwoboda about his new book, A Teachable Spirit Learning from Strangers, enemies, and Absolutely Anyone. This is such a timely conversation in the midst of our tribal and polarized culture. If you are a regular listener of this podcast, then I know your heart burns to make a difference in the lives of those who don't yet know Jesus. And I believe the wisdom that AJ shares will absolutely equip you to do that. So I encourage you to listen to the entire thing and to share this with others. If this podcast encourages you. Please invite others into the community. My desire and the desire of the other guys and all of our guests, is to faithfully follow Jesus in a world that feels increasingly hostile to God and the truth. So let's spur one another on to be faithful and effective. And I think this community could be part of that process. It's also worth mentioning that this podcast is part of Steiger, a missions organization started by my parents, something I've grown up in and lived my whole life and were active in over two hundred cities around the world, and we are constantly wrestling with the question, how can we present the love of Jesus in a clear and relevant way outside of the church? There is so much happening globally and I'd love for you to find out more. To do that, go to Steiger. All right, enough of my rambling. Let's get into this much needed conversation with the brilliant AJ Swoboda. You're listening to the Provoke and Inspire podcast. All right, well, here we are. The record button is on. I got AJ Swoboda now. I practiced your last name incessantly. I think I said it okay. Was that okay? Well, say it one more time for me. Swoboda. You got it pretty close. Swoboda. I think if you said it, it almost sounded like you said Swoboda. But I think I think you get it right. Is it. Is it Polish? It's Czech. Czechoslovakia. Check, check. And it means, uh. It means freedom. Okay. Right on, right on. Well, wow. What a what a that's that's, uh, inspiring and probably a burden on some levels to have such a great, profound last name freedom, I like that. It is a fun last name. And there's some funny, uh, if you if you've ever seen the movie Braveheart. Yeah. Have I? It's practically, uh, in my house. It was mandatory. Good. There were good parents involved there. Um. Uh, when William Wallace at the end. Mel Gibson when he screams freedom. Yeah. Um, if you watch the the Russian version, he screams my last name. So it's. He screams Swoboda! So I have had that used in many introductions at speaking events. I bet he has. And that I'm sure, inspired you in a unique way. I was going to make a Braveheart joke, and I'm I'm I take risks on jokes often at the beginning of podcasts, and rarely do they work. But in this case, I think it may have. So I'll take more courage in the future. But hey, thank you so much for doing this. Uh, as I said before we started recording, I have loved your stuff. It's always so insightful, inspiring, relatable, so relevant to our current culture. And so I would love to talk about anything and everything depending on where this goes. But your latest book, A Teachable Spirit, is so profound for times like this. But rather than putting words in your mouth, why did you feel inspired to write this book? Yeah, anything that a writer pens, there's usually a backstory to it. You know, the personal side to it. And I think for me, um, one of the main reasons that I wrote this book was that Christians in the twenty first century as as the world gets more and more complicated by more and more complicated, I mean, digital technologies are changing the way people learn. ChatGPT and AI technologies are literally going to decimate whole workforces as the ways in which people learn changes things are complicating a great deal. Um, the way humans are engaging in their world, I have noticed a trend among some Christians of feeling the need to kind of pull away from the world and go kind of hide their head in the sand or something like that. I think I wrote this book because I'm not convinced that's the right response to the complicated nature of our twenty first century existence. A teachable spirit is really a testimony to this. I think that it is possible to be a humble learner in chaotic times, and still have a deep faith in Christ, and I would even say being a teachable person can deepen your relationship with Christ. So I don't think hiding our head in the sand is the right response. I think there's a better way forward. Yeah. Why do we have a complicated relationship with being teachable? It feels as though the humility embedded within Jesus are primary example would make it a feature of ours. And yet, I feel like being teachable is not probably one of the first ways the secular world would describe a follower of Jesus, or at least a Christian in a generic sense. So why? Why do we struggle with being teachable? That's a really great question. I'll tell you a story that gets at the heart of it real quick. Um, a couple of years ago, I had been watching this this news story of a young woman about twenty five years old who very young in her political career, she worked for a political candidate who was running for office where they were. And she got caught up doing some stuff that was illegal. Nobody was hurt. It was just she made some mistakes. She was in her testimony stage of her her time in court. And she basically completely broke down. I mean, it was like a public scene of repentance. You know how in the Old Testament, you know, people would they'd rip their clothes or they'd put on sackcloth or put ash on their head like public acts of repentance. I mean, she was just shattered by what she had done, and she was apologizing and saying, I've learned from this. I'm not going to do this again. These were not crocodile tears. Like she was really brokenhearted about this. And I was sort of hoping like, gosh, what a beautiful moment. Like, because we rarely see people publicly admit they're wrong in public anymore. It's so rare. And I was sort of hoping like this might be a breakthrough for some humility. And that evening, as I got on social media, it dawned on me as I was watching, that everybody was dunking on this young woman for her stupidity. And what basically was happening was her being teachable was being weaponized against her. She was getting dunked on for being humble. And I think part of the question, your question, why are Christians struggling with this is I think our cultural moment has done a fabulous job of basically weaponizing people's humility against them and weaponizing their teachability against them, that if you dare to be wrong about something, then we're going to mock you to no end. So what do we do? The best thing we do is, well, we protect ourselves against getting mocked, so we just can never be wrong, even beyond the implications of a fact being accurate or inaccurate. What truth to believe. It feels like it provokes something even more fundamental level like an identity thing. Like when someone admits that they're wrong, it's almost as if the world, Christian and otherwise reacts like, whoa, what are you what are you doing? That provokes a spirit of our age, that somehow our knowledge and our identities are interwoven? Would you say that beyond the facts? Because I want to talk about experts, but just even fundamentally who I am as a follower of Jesus should enable me or allow me to be wrong and still be okay. Do you think part of this is just that we have lost our sense of identity, detached from the things we know or do not know, or even the mistakes we make or do not make. And because of that, we we found ourselves in a position where we have to protect being right or wrong, because that's the very nature of who we are now. Yeah, man. Great question Ben. I think that a quick reading of the Gospels and the portrayal of the disciples, I mean, just about every page in the Gospels, the disciples are either thrown under the bus or are wildly wrong about something, and Jesus has to correct them on it. That is our book given to us by God to teach us about ourselves. It should be a normal experience for Christians to experience being wrong. Yeah, that should be a normal thing. Every day we should anticipate being wrong about something. Um, you know what Jesus taught in the the his farewell address in John's Gospel is he taught that you will be given the spirit who will lead you into all truth. That's a really compelling, uh, that the spirit will be your teacher, right? Who leads you into all truth? That's a really interesting image of the spirit. The spirit as the teacher who lives inside of us. Um, in the spirit lives with us and goes with us everywhere that we go. And that means that the spirit can speak to us and teach us and correct us anywhere that the spirit wants to do that. Yeah. And so what an interesting idea that you have a teacher who lives inside of you. That's such an interesting concept to think about. That's profound in our world. You know, we we focus a lot on evangelism, a lot on getting followers of Jesus to step outside of their comfort zones and preach the gospel. And I think being teachable has a profound impact on this, because you tend to have two polarities. On one end, you have someone who is so afraid of stepping out into those conversations and being exposed as not knowing something or being wrong in a particular area that they won't do it. Or on the other hand, you have people who are so convinced that they're right about everything and have nothing to learn, even, you know, heaven forbid from a non-believer that they do not have productive conversations outside of the church because they just are so triumphant in all of their knowledge about absolutely everything. So even as it relates to being effective witnesses for Christ, what impact does Teachability have on that, in the sense that it creates the proper posture? Like we can just go out? It's not my rightness that's on the line. It's the gospel. So what role does Teachability have even in our ability to fulfill the Great Commission? That's a really great question. You know, Jesus said, there's this really interesting little teaching in Luke's gospel. I think it's Luke ten or twelve twelve somewhere in there where Jesus sends out the seventy two disciples and he gives these really interesting little commandments, uh, as he sends them out two by two. For example, he he tells them, don't greet anybody on the road, which is a very weird commandment, because you would think that's the part of the mission, right? But that is, is to talk to people as you go. But his point is not don't talk to people. His point is, don't get distracted from the ultimate goal I'm sending you for. Don't don't get, you know, torn to the right or the left. Um, he says a number of other little things, but one of them that always stands out to me is he says, do not take with you a purse, any extra sandals or extra money. That commandment of don't take with you any extra money to me is always boggled my mind. It has never made sense to me why Jesus would say that. Because we teach people as missionaries. You got to be fully funded before you go. Yeah, right. And it seems like everything Jesus is saying there is the opposite. Don't go fully funded. And I think the reason he's doing this, the reason he's saying this, is he is trying to cultivate a certain kind of spirit in his disciples that I want to send you as a missionary, but I need you to go vulnerably so that you need the people that you're being sent to reach. Oh, interesting, because if you have no needs, then you don't actually need them. It's not a real relationship. It is just a colonial. You're coming and perfectly bringing everything and don't need anything. But if you go in and you need, you know, somebody to host you as a as a place to stay if you come in needing to get a job, if you come in needing some help, then it develops a reciprocal missional relationship. How does that apply to this? Um, we are sent into the world, right? And as we go, I think part of God's design is that we can learn from our neighbors and our friends and our coworkers that don't know Jesus because we you know what? As Christians, we believe in something called common grace, which means that God gives knowledge and great expertise through non covenant people. This happens all the time in the Old Testament. It happens all the time in Scripture. Um, common grace is our belief that God can teach us and give us knowledge and insight through even the outsider. So when we go, I think, I think that that spirit that Jesus is trying to cultivate in his disciples still matters for us. Go into the world bearing the gospel of Jesus, but go in willing to learn from the person you're sharing it with because they may have something to teach you too. Yeah, and I found it's very effective to reframe the conversation as a joint pursuit of what's true. Yeah, right. Because I think often it can be it can be perceived or even it can. The way we do it can rightly give the impression that it's me, the expert, communicating to you the person that does not know. And of course, I'm not saying we don't have truth that we've learned or that, you know, God has revealed to us, but if you just reframe it as, look, I believe there is truth, which is a whole nother conversation in a world that doesn't necessarily always live as if that's true. And I want to pursue that with you. And I don't know a lot of things, and I'm sure you don't either. And if we would honestly pursue it together, I think we might arrive at a conclusion, you know, that I think I believe is true, but how much of it is is just having the patience to, to kind of, in a sense, detach the truth from you and say, hey, let's pursue this together and let's see where this leads. And as followers of Jesus, we should have confidence that an honest pursuit of truth will lead well to the truth. Right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, at that at that point, it doesn't become I'm right and you're wrong. It becomes we're both probably wrong in a number of ways. So let's align ourselves to finding truth together. Yeah, I think that's a different posture. Of course, as you know, as a Christian, I really do believe the gospel is true and it's the truest story. And I think that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. And no one comes to the father except through Jesus. And so, you know, I don't want to be deceptive about that and pretend like I don't believe that because I that's a part of the testimony a Christian should never be wishy washy on. Um, so as long as in our heart of hearts, we don't allow that to, um, lean us in the direction of neglecting the truth of what we believe as Christians, right? As it relates to pursuing effective conversations with those outside of the church. I think what I've seen can be a tendency is to want to be very clear where we align on certain hot topic cultural flashpoints. And while, of course I totally agree that we need to stand up for what's true, it often feels as though for those who have not yet encountered the love of Jesus. These topics on the periphery that are vitally important, but kind of tension points can be almost more of a barrier than a help to a productive gospel conversation. So how do we, first of all, do you agree with that idea? And second of all, how do we wrestle with that balance of being humble and teachable, but also stand up for the truth and publicly refute lies that are destroying people? Because I think some people would say, well, yeah, I want to be teachable, but I'm not just going to capitulate to all of the lies of culture and never say anything that I believe is true. Help people navigate that tension because Jesus was firm and humble at the same time. And I think we need to be also. Yeah. Um, in the in the teachable spirit, there's a chapter in there that looks at learning from secular culture. And I bring up the story of Daniel in exile. It's an interesting case study in how to and how not to engage with culture, because Daniel is not about, Hey, you're in exile now. Do as the Babylonians do. It's actually a very clear way of showing us that there are certain things that one should not do. So I'll give you an example. When you read Daniel one, you find that Daniel refuses to eat the food of the Babylonians. The Babylonian royalty food. So he refuses to eat the food of the king. Yet he's willing to work in the front office of the Babylonian headquarters. Now, that isn't that weird, because on one level, he's, like, deeply disengaged. He refuses to partner in one in one way, but in another way, he's he gets his W-2 from Babylon. So knowing where we engage and where we don't engage is very important for that story. And he has a clear commitment to his covenant relationship with Yahweh based on based on his knowledge of the scriptures up to the point in his life that he had. He has a clear Your relationship with his love for God? I mean, my point is, is that he had a rubric to know where to enter into dialogue and where he couldn't. You know, in our moment in time, I agree with you. It would not be, um, super wise if you wanted to start a conversation with somebody on a bus and just start talking about sexuality. Yeah. Um, I'm going to bet that that conversation isn't going to go super far because you haven't done any work to get to the point where there's trust built, where you know what your base foundational beliefs are or theirs are. Um, you know, when I'm, I teach a class on on sexuality and gender, Bible, sexuality and gender. It's my favorite class I teach. And in that class, I spend the first month just talking about the authority of Scripture. That's all I teach about, because a conversation about sexuality is is not really about sexuality. It's about authority. Who has the final say about anything? And so the class only works because the students have a shared a agreed basis of authority for what is true and what is not. You can't have those kinds of conversations unless there's some shared, um, otherwise you can have conversations about sexuality and gender. You just need to know those may be painful conversations. They may not be the exciting conversations that you might, might, might want. Um, yeah. So yeah, in general, though, the most important thing I would say is the depth of relationship will, uh, create the kind of space needed for true transformative conversations to happen. The more trust you have built in a relationship with a non-believer, uh, the deeper that conversation can go. So just front end it with a lot, a lot of of earning trust and building trust that you're a safe person to talk to about hard stuff. And I think relativism, which we've touched on a little bit in the first few minutes. Here is plays a complicating role in all of this, because from my vantage point and in my experience, people are relatively willing to hear and listen to ideas. But it's when anything becomes absolute or an injunction of some kind, or this should affect the way you live. And there is no this is right. And the counter perspective to this is wrong. And so how much of that is plays a role in the challenge that we have as we interact with people. And that on one hand, we want to build trust and we want to let the conversation develop as it goes. But at some point, we do have to say from my vantage point, this is right and this is wrong, and that really provokes the spirit of our age. I would say even more than just having views. It's when those views become the view like capital T truth. So how do we navigate that? Um, we have to cultivate what A.W. Tozer called humble dogmatism or gentle dogmatism. Interesting gentle dogmatism and gentle dogmatism is his concept of we must have a ruthless commitment to historic Christian teachings. A ruthless commitment to the core stuff that Christians have always believed, and an unflinching in an unflinching way. And yet we do it with a huge smile on our face and such kindness and such gentleness. And those two things, as you are well aware, Ben. Sadly, it is often seen that the people who are most ruthlessly committed to key orthodox issues can sometimes be the meanest people. Right. And I think that the pathway forward is something akin to what Tozer called gentle dogmatism, is that we we stand firm on God's Word, and we stand firm on what the church has taught us. But we do so with a giant smile and a huge sense of humility and kindness towards whoever we are engaging. And that's a, that's a that's a hard thing to cultivate both of those at the same time. Um, but I can tell you, I do feel just a sense that it's important to say, don't allow this conversation about humility to be turned into Mar. Your beliefs don't matter all that much. Just don't presume that you know everything. That can be a really dangerous perspective to where you just sort of throw away your core convictions in the name of humility. That's true. Humility doesn't give up its deeply held beliefs just to do so. So don't be like, well, you know, I shouldn't hold deeply to any beliefs. I don't think that's what humility is. Humility, to me, is holding deep, deeply held beliefs that that are non-negotiable to you. Um, and, and and at the same time doing it with a soft heartedness towards people like, yeah, um, be be close minded about your theology, but open hearted, uh, towards your relationship towards people. Um, yeah. Or something to that effect. And that's a tough paradox or apparent paradox to navigate. I think that, yeah, but it's something that that is so absolutely necessary in this context. And I think part of it is our culture has framed tolerance incorrectly. It's framed tolerance as ideas are guarded and and they're interwoven with people's identities in a way where that wasn't always the case, where it was perfectly understood that I can disagree with your perspectives on things and still love and respect you, the person. And I think that's part of why a lot of Christians are afraid to engage, because they know that to affirm this person means I have to affirm everything about him. So I either fight or flight. I either go, okay, well, here we go. I'm going to have to attack their identity or the perception that I'm attacking their identity, or I'll just capitulate and just everything's love and everything's good. That's right. I don't know. Part of it is just it's hard to stomach the fight that it takes to confront the lie in our culture that I am my ideas. They're not just a part of maybe what I believe and need to change over time. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny that our culture does not do very well with ideas. What we are told in the counseling office we should do, which is practice differentiation. Like differentiation in in a therapist office is when we're taught that it is important that you are your own self and that you don't you don't need to be the same as somebody else in order to have a relationship with them. You can be a differentiated person. Any counselor would do a good deal of work teaching their their patients that. Yet in our culture, it is assumed ideologically or on a on a level of ideas or lifestyles that if you don't agree with what I do or think, then we can't have a relationship. And that creates relationships of enmeshment because no longer can I actually be who I think I'm supposed to be. I now have to bend everything I am for your sake. And that's a very dangerous way to create a culture. Because then you know that, uh, that Spider-Man meme where all three of them are like. Like they're all, uh, it feels it feels like we're all holding each other at hostage. Right? Are you with me? If you're not with me. And then they're like. But I don't like that guy. And it just creates a weird hostage situation, right? And it doesn't create an environment where real learning can take place. Because the vulnerability and the willingness to be wrong and change, by definition, requires a context that allows for that. And so if we've created an environment where the only way I can coexist with you is to surrender the parts of me that would confront any part of you that makes you uncomfortable, and vice versa. We've created just very superficial relationships, which I think people feel, Yeah. Which is why when those that come out of the woodworks that are willing to just speak the truth, sometimes it's caustically, sometimes it's wrong and destructive. But I think people flock to that because it's refreshing, because it's someone who is actually just saying what they think, which I think we desperately need. There's a reason I'm not advocating him as a good source. But, you know, there's a reason Joe Rogan has the most listened to podcast in him in the world. Um, he's not afraid to to speak truthfully what he, he believes. It doesn't mean he's he's actually truthful, but it's what he believes. And he does so with without fear of repercussion. And I think people are really drawn to that, um, that, that level of, of boldness. Um, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And yet even within that tension, I get frustrated with him sometimes because I feel like the endlessly curious there's, there is a cowardice is way too strong of a word. But there is a degree of like, do you stand for anything? Or do you simply become a chameleon of whoever you happen to be around because he's with the Christian guy and then he's he seems to be in that direction, and then he's with the guy who is all about drugs, and he's with that guy. And it's just to some degree, there is a level of, yes, our teachability and curiosity has to have a bedrock of conviction, because in the absence of that, it just I think that runs its course and becomes kind of frustrating. Yeah. Paul says in the last days, people will be learners. Uh, they will be endless learners, but never able to come to the truth. And there's a, you know, a sense of which there's a form of learning that's very dangerous. That's it's we're just learning about everything all the time, but we're never landing anywhere. Um, I can't remember who it was, who who first said this to me, but, um, something to the effect of, like, we live in a culture where, um, you are encouraged to learn and learn and learn and learn. You can. Oh, this is what it was. Uh, you can be a spiritual seeker in our culture, um, you're allowed to be a spiritual seeker. But the minute you become a spiritual finder, you're closed minded and arrogant and bigoted and backwards. And there's so much wisdom in that because, you know, in our culture, it is so cool to be a learner. It's so cool to be a spiritual seeker or to, you know, do all the spiritual things. But the minute you're like, But Jesus is the way. And then, then it's like, oh, the conversation's over. You just ended it. Thanks for making things awkward. Um, you know, so strange and so but that perfectly captures, I think, the spirit of Joe Rogan, which is the perpetual learner with very few conclusions, which again, I'm not trying to judge him specifically, but I think he kind of epitomizes or symbolizes the the modern archetype of the guy who's willing to hear and listen with, as you said, never really landing anywhere. So, um, let me pivot here quick to so chapter two talks about learning from experts and I think experts as a word or a person or whatever you want to call it, that we have a tenuous relationship with, especially post Covid. We all love experts when they say what we want to say. What is an expert? How do we discern that? And what role do they play in the Body of Christ to help us to be more effective following Jesus and witnesses to the world? Yeah. I mean, an expert is a person who has been given a level of authority in a particular domain or area of expertise. Um, and somebody that has not only, uh, they don't have a self defined expertise, but they have been endowed that with the community of individuals who are leaders in that particular area. So, um, you know, it's interesting. Christians can tend to be really uncomfortable with experts. But, you know, keep in mind, um, two of the New Testament writings, Luke and Acts were both written by, um, a doctor. Um, they were written by a professional expert from the first century who, um, would have spent years training as a medical professional, and eventually writes the Gospels of Luke and the Book of Acts, um, as, uh, as a doctor, as a Christian, you do believe in an expert, and when you submit yourself to those books, you're you're listening to a, a doctor teach us about Jesus. And it's interesting because Luke actually tells more healing stories than any other gospel writers. He has more interest in those because. Because of what? Guess what? His expertise. He's looking at things through his life story. So yeah, I think Christians are very susceptible to, um, I'll put it this way. I think some people are too susceptible to overtrusting experts and some are too susceptible to trusting experts. So we tend to be either super dismissive or we tend to be over Overtrusting and I, the point of this chapter is just to come to a balanced perspective, to learn from experts where it is appropriate, and submit ourselves to what they have to offer us and at times how to discern the garbage. Because there's a lot of garbage too. It's not always easy to discern the difference, but you know, rather than rehashing the big points here, I want go read the book because I give like five or six things to be looking for in a trustable expert. Um, but I think, I think that's, that's a, that's a key thing in the, in the world where again, there's so much knowledge out there, we all tend to trust the experts to tell us how to interpret that knowledge, and that's okay. But we just need wisdom in how and who to trust when it comes to those experts. Yeah. That's great. One of the probably more controversial chapters, I'd imagine, is learning from your enemies, and it feels like the key word that maybe people would wrestle with is from as opposed to about. You know, I would say some people just don't want anything to do with their enemies whatsoever. Some might be willing to learn about their enemies, you know. You know, tactical information. But from there seems to suggest a level of intimacy and humility from people that, oh, they we already know by definition, they're enemies. Right? So they're they're teaching the wrong stuff. Quickly unpack that for me. How do how does one wrap their minds around learning from enemies? Well, keep in mind, first of all, keep in mind that learning from somebody doesn't mean that you agree with them. Um, if I learn something from someone. For example, I have a debate with one of my classes every year around if it would be wise for us in the twenty first century, should we still be reading books by, for example, should we still be reading Hitler's Mein Kampf like, as part of our education, uh, journey? And it's a really fun debate because some students have. You have I read Mein Kampf? I've heard it's a laborious read. I'm just curious. Have you read it? I've read the real pertinent sections in English. I don't, I don't know German, but, um. Yeah, it's not a fun read. No, it's I mean, it's soul sucking and but the question is, you know, do we read it or do we abandon it? And some would say, well, you abandon it because it's evil and wrong. I agree it's evil and wrong, but if you just chuck it, doesn't that end up giving it more power? So the meaning in the sense and by the way, this is not me advocating for everybody to go out and buy a copy of Mein Kampf. I'm using this as an illustration. I actually think, and I argue this in class, that it's important for us to engage the ideas in Mein Kampf, because it is only in in engaging them that we can actually have a solid argument against them. Right. So in order to be able to to undermine the ideology espoused here, I've got to actually be able to learn it before I can defeat it. So in, in a way, like not all learning from enemies means it's tactical and not sense. but I think that the learning from enemies component is important because it reminds us that just because you're learning from somebody does not mean you agree with what you're learning. Um, you can learn from your enemies and, and wildly disagree with everything that they're saying and still be learning from them. I remember going through a phase where I was really getting into apologetics, and I was almost afraid to read these atheist books, like the sort of the The pillar atheist books. I don't know what it was. I don't know whether it was it was early twenties, and maybe I was just afraid of the arguments I would find in there. And I have definitely come to not fear them the way I did. But I think there is a a tremendous parallel almost between sin and lies that they're exposed in the light. Oh, yeah. Right. That you need to allow them to be exposed if they're hidden away, that don't, like you said, almost gives them a forbidden power. Like, what's what is this thing that I'm told not to look at? You know that it is psychologically, you say, don't look right. You're everything in you says look right. But as you said, and I think it also comes back to this, this idea that we got to pursue truth and that part of the pursuit of truth is to allow bad ideas to be exposed by good ones and to allow the truth to defend itself, in a sense. Um, so I totally respect that. We got a few minutes left here, so I want to I want to end with this. It is overwhelming today to know what to to learn, where to go. I mean, it's just we're so inundated. And, you know, in some ways I get the irony as being part of that problem. But there's so much out there for people to listen to and consume. How do you discern what to learn, let alone the need to learn at all? You know, a lot of what I need to learn is often tied to what I'm teaching, writing, or preaching on. Sure. It's often tied to that. Not always, but very often. But I would say that more important than what you're learning is how you're choosing to learn. And I would say make it a decision to rather than go wider in your learning, go deeper in your learning. You're going to learn a lot more by listening to a podcast episode at one time speed, than listening to it at three times speed. I think we're all tempted to want to do more, but I think when you go deeper, the impact is so much better on our brains, our hearts and our minds. So I would just say, slow down in your learning. Whatever it is, slow down in your learning and don't you don't need to take it so fast. That's such great advice. I had William Lane Craig on, and what was so interesting about my conversation with him was I would ask him questions that he would consider outside of his area of expertise, and he simply would say, I don't know, or I don't feel qualified to answer that. And I dug into that a little more, and his response was like, I made a decision at a very early age. I wanted to be an expert at one thing, and he's continually disciplined himself to narrow that scope. Interesting. It was fascinating. And of course, I felt convicted by that because it's reinforcing from a person that's demonstrated it. That's right. And he said, I felt this conviction from the Lord that if I devoted myself to a certain thing, then I would be a better blessing to the body of Christ than if I just became an inch deep in a thousand things. And I thought, oh, man, okay, I might have to rethink it. So. AJ, this has been really great and I know you got a time crunch here, so I want to make sure that I, that I end as, as we said we would. But I highly recommend that everyone goes out and reads a teachable spirit, the virtue of learning from strangers, enemies, and absolutely anyone. I'm assuming it's absolutely everywhere and anywhere that books can be found. We'll link it everywhere. I do a little intro before this where I'll mention it as well, but not just that book. I'd recommend all of them. Your writing has really profoundly impacted me, so I appreciate you. And I know you're busy, so you got to go, but, uh. Thank you. Thank you for being on the podcast. Thanks for all that you're doing, brother. Keep it up.